Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 492564 times)

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Offline pcampbell

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #640 on: November 07, 2007, 07:02:36 PM »
Should there be some sort of association between amount of IDY and the length of the fermentation  since I basically know when I am going to be using the dough unlike a pizzeria operator.

For example we are having people over Saturday so I was planning on making dough balls tomorrow for a 48 hour ferment.

I recently made a 0.17% pie and it was in the fridge (43? F something around there I believe - I can check if it is relevant) for 48 hours.  It came out quite flat.   I did not use ice cold water or the freezer, but I did cross stack in the fridge for 1 hour prior to closing the lids.

The recipe was like this:
Flour (100%):
Water (61.57%):
IDY (.17%):
Salt (1.8%):
Total (163.54%):
Single Ball:
613.44 g  |  21.64 oz | 1.35 lbs
377.69 g  |  13.32 oz | 0.83 lbs
1.04 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
11.04 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.3 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
1003.22 g | 35.39 oz | 2.21 lbs | TF = 0.088
501.61 g | 17.69 oz | 1.11 lbs

I do realize the .088 thickness factor is quite thin to begin with and maybe that is the biggest reason why it came out so flat...

Essentially what I'm trying to figure out is if I am anticipating using the dough in 1, 2  or 3 days should I be using decreasing amounts of yeast respectively? (e.g. .27 for 1 day and .17 for 3??)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 07:12:10 PM by pcampbell »
Patrick


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #641 on: November 07, 2007, 08:51:27 PM »
Patrick,

There is a correlation between the amount of yeast and the length of the fermentation period. However, I don't know how effectively you can fine tune the amount of yeast in a typical home environment on a daily, incremental basis. I think you may need to increase the amount of yeast in your case if the temperatures are dropping where you are in N.J. I frequently go from 0.25% IDY to about 0.40% when fall and winter arrive. I have even observed that the temperature of my refrigerator compartment, which is usually around 40-42 degrees F in the summer, drops as the weather turns cool (which it has done recently here in Texas). Today it is around 38 degrees F in the corner of my refrigerator compartment where I normally keep dough balls. Even at 0.40% IDY, I can get several days out of the dough. I still try to get a finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degree F range, as I would at any other time of year.

BTW, it is not unusual to hear stories like yours when the weather starts to turn cool.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 08:53:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pcampbell

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #642 on: November 08, 2007, 01:01:40 PM »
Thanks, this is a great point that I didn't think of.  The temps in our house are typically 63 and no more than 67 these days.  Inside the fridge seems to be between 35-39 instead of in the low 40s where I last measured.  I guess I never thought a few degrees could make such a difference!  Back to experimenting!!!
Patrick

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #643 on: December 27, 2007, 12:04:16 AM »
PMQ recently made a new pizza demonstration video available at its pizzatv.com website at http://www.pizzatv.com/doughdrny.php. In the video, Tom Lehmann discusses and shows how to make a NY style pizza using a NY style formulated dough (after 5 3/4 hours at room temperature), Roma tomatoes, olive oil, minced garlic, fresh basil and oregano, shredded cheese, and Parmesan and Romano grated cheeses. The pizza is assembled on one of the new hearth style disks from pizzatools.com and baked in an air impingement conveyor oven (I believe it is one of the new Lincoln Fast-Bake ovens) for about 5 1/2 minutes at 485 degrees F.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #644 on: March 26, 2008, 12:21:28 PM »
Earlier in the week, when I saw that this thread was approaching 100,000 page views, I thought that I would commemorate that notable milestone by making a thin “elite” 18” version of the Lehmann dough formulation but using Harvest King bread flour, a hydration of 57% (to make handling and stretching the dough out to 18” easier), and a bit of honey. The use of the Harvest King flour was to compare it with the King Arthur bread flour and the KASL, which are the brands I have used most frequently in the past. To increase the protein content of the Harvest King flour to approach high-gluten flour, I supplemented that flour with vital wheat gluten, using November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate how much Harvest King flour and vital wheat gluten (Hodgson Mills brand in my case) to use.

I sifted both the Harvest King flour and vital wheat gluten before using, and added the yeast (ADY), in dry form, at the end of the dough making process to extend the useful life of the dough (by slowing the rate of fermentation). I decided to use the dough after five days of cold fermentation, although I believe that it could have gone at least a few days--and maybe even several days--longer. The dough formulation I used was this one (from the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html):

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
ADY (0.50%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Honey (2%):
Total (162.5%):
409.54 g  |  14.45 oz | 0.9 lbs
233.44 g  |  8.23 oz | 0.51 lbs
2.05 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
6.14 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
6.14 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
8.19 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
665.51 g | 23.47 oz | 1.47 lbs | TF = 0.09225
Note: The nominal thickness factor used in the tool was 0.09; the amount of Harvest King flour was 13.87 oz. and the amount of vital wheat gluten was 0.58 oz. (about 5.5 t.); the water was at 70 degrees F; the bowl residue compensation was 2.5%

I decided to use the dough to make a buffalo chicken pizza. To do this, I first coated the stretched out skin (18”) with a layer of Ranch dressing (Ken’s brand). I then added the following items in sequence: drizzles of Frank’s Red Hot Buffalo Wing Sauce; crumbled Wisconsin blue cheese; diced red onion; pieces of chicken that I had grilled in a grill pan and coated with more of the Frank’s Wing Sauce; shredded mozzarella cheese (low-moisture, part-skim); pieces of partially-cooked bacon; and more drizzles of the Frank’s Wing Sauce. Based on a suggestion that I had read at the PMQ Think Tank, I used about half the amount of mozzarella cheese that I would normally use on an 18” pizza. That turned out to be a good idea and allowed all of the flavors to shine through.

The pizza was dressed on an 18” pizza screen, which I used together with a pizza stone that I preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. As I recently described elsewhere, the stone was positioned on pieces of brick such that the stone was very close to the bottom electric heating element. This allowed me to achieve a stone temperature of around 600 degrees F. The pizza was initially baked on the second from the top oven rack position until the rim of the pizza started to expand and the pizza was firm enough to move onto the stone, about 4 minutes. I then slid the pizza off of the screen (which I removed from the oven) directly onto the pizza stone, where it baked for about another three minutes. When I saw that the bottom crust was adequately browned, I moved the pizza back to the second from the top oven rack position for about another minute to achieve increased top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza had very good oven spring, with a large chewy rim and a thin and crispy outer veneer, and a crispy bottom with a good amount of char. Because of the size of the pizza, I had to move my camera back to get the entire pizza in the image, so some of the detail is not adequately captured in the photos. The pizza itself, however, tasted very good. It was the first buffalo chicken pizza I had made and I thought that all of the flavors blended together very nicely and harmoniously. Next time, I would be inclined to use a larger thickness factor (around 0.10) and either KA bread flour or KASL, which I prefer over the Harvest King flour for the Lehmann NY style. I did not see any particular advantage from using honey, although the dough did form nicely and smoothly (I used the whisk, flat beater and C-hook attachments to my basic KitchenAid stand mixer).

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:36:36 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bryan S

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #645 on: March 27, 2008, 12:13:38 AM »
Peter, I'm guessing you didn't save me a slice.  :( Great looking pie, really nice.  8) I'm so hungry for a Buffalo pizza right now, but I don't know why.  :-\
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Offline scott r

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #646 on: March 27, 2008, 02:44:28 AM »
Peter, that sounds like an amazing pizza.  I think you will be very happy with the .1 dough thickness.  I made a number of 18 inch pizzas this weekend using that thickness factor and the crust to topping ratio was exactly what you would find in most NY pizzerias. 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 02:46:06 AM by scott r »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #647 on: March 27, 2008, 08:19:29 AM »
Peter, I'm guessing you didn't save me a slice.  :( Great looking pie, really nice.  8) I'm so hungry for a Buffalo pizza right now, but I don't know why.  :-\

Bryan,

Thanks. Any way you slice it, an 18" pizza is a lot of pizza. I had some reheated leftover slices yesterday and they were really good. I had read that the buffalo chicken pizza is a top seller for some pizza operators, and I can see why. There are a lot of flavors and textures that work well together. Chicken wings with hot sauce are a very popular item around March Madness time, so this pizza would be a good way of using spiced up chicken in a pizza format to serve up a gang of hungry basketball fans. Along with a few cold ones from your fridge in the garage. 8)

Peter
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 08:54:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #648 on: March 27, 2008, 08:52:50 AM »
Peter, that sounds like an amazing pizza.  I think you will be very happy with the .1 dough thickness.  I made a number of 18 inch pizzas this weekend using that thickness factor and the crust to topping ratio was exactly what you would find in most NY pizzerias. 

scott r,

I know that you are very fond of buffalo chicken wings hot sauces and I remembered that as I was making the pizza. Here in Texas we are close to Louisiana and Mexico and, as a result, have access to some incredible hot sauces--at very modest prices. Most pizza operators who use Frank's hot sauces use their regular line of sauces that can go from mild to insanely hot. However, the only Frank's sauce I could find locally was the wings sauce. But that was fine because I was trying to recreate the buffalo wings sauce taste in the pizza anyway. Maybe next time I will combine the Frank's Wing Sauce with a Louisiana or Mexican hot sauce.

I estimate that my food costs for the pizza were around $6. Most prices I have seen for anything close to 18" for a buffalo chicken pizza are between $15-$20. And some places don't use blue cheese or bacon on the pizza, most likely because of the high cost. What some places do, however, is make a blue cheese sauce to serve on the side, which is also a good idea since many people don't like the flavor of blue cheese.

Peter

Offline Bryan S

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #649 on: March 27, 2008, 11:22:05 PM »
Peter & Scott, You guys must have really big ovens. My 16" screen barely fits in mine. 18" pies would be so  8) to make. This is def on my to do list in the 16" size though. Thanks for posting your recipe Peter.  :chef:
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #650 on: March 28, 2008, 06:41:54 AM »
Peter & Scott, You guys must have really big ovens.

Bryan,

The 18" screen just about fits in my oven with the door closed. The star of this pizza is the toppings, although the size of the pizza itself is impressive. You can use just about any of the versions of the Lehmann dough formulation. You should also be able to use your standard dough formulation of Hecker's, water, salt and yeast and scale it to whatever size you want. I used the 18" screen because the largest pizza my stone can handle is 14". But the combination of the screen and stone works very well to make the larger size. The screen also makes it easy to dress the pizza and not worry about whether you will be able to safely load it into the oven (you'd hate to lose the pizza after all of the work and expense). Just to be on the safe side, and because of the thinness of the skin, I lightly sprayed the screen with some oil spray (canola in my case).

Peter

Offline sankoff

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #651 on: May 27, 2008, 11:43:57 AM »
Peter,

my name is Javier, i´m from Spain. (sorry for my english)
first of all, i´m glad to be part of this community and thanks to you and all members for give me a chance to make good quality pizzas at home.

I always make your hand-kneaded version of Tom Lehmann´s dough recipe: (Reply # 68, page 4) (as a new member, i am not allowed to post messages containing hyperlinks...) :(
because i haven´t bread machine, mixers,... only my hands ;-)

Have a few questions for you....
1- After two or three days into the refrigerator, the dough continue rising... is that normal?
2- Here in Spain, can´t find easily high-gluten flour... so i use high-protein flour.... is that ok?
3- Sometimes, the dough tends to shrink, only sometimes.... i don´t know why.. (I remove it from the refrigerator and bring it to room temperature, where it remained for about 1 1/4 hours)
4- To make two doughs at the same time, i duplicate all of the ingredients, and cut the final ball obtaining two small doughs before removing them into the refrigerator.... is that ok?

thanks :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 01:42:14 PM by sankoff »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #652 on: May 27, 2008, 03:57:08 PM »
Javier,

Your English is fine. This is the link you mentioned: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674 (Reply 68). When you reach five posts, you will be able to post links.

I will try to answer your questions in the order you presented them.

1) It is not uncommon for the Lehmann dough to continue to rise after two or three days although the expansion of the dough will slow down with time. The extent of the rise of the dough will depend mostly on the temperature of the dough and the amount of yeast used (I assume you used the amount called for in the Lehmann recipe). In general, the dough will have a tendency to expand more in warm weather than in cold weather. The temperature of your refrigerator will also affect the rate and extent of the expansion of the dough. To keep the dough from rising too much, you can use cold water when making the dough. 

2) I am not familiar with flours available to you in Spain, but if your high-protein flour is like what we call "bread" flour in the U.S., with a protein level of around 12-13%, you should be fine. In fact, many of our members prefer bread flour over high-gluten flour for the Lehmann dough recipe. Some members even prefer using all-purpose flour with the Lehmann recipe. You will want to be sure that you have the correct flour, however. In some places, even outside of the U.S., people sometimes confuse vital wheat gluten for pizza flour. Vital wheat gluten can be added to other flours, but it cannot be used all by itself to make pizza dough. 

3) On occasion, the Lehmann dough will shrink a bit while shaping and stretching the dough ball out to the final desired size. That is quite normal, especially if the dough is not warmed up enough or it is a bit underfermented (not quite "old" enough). If the shrinkage is because the dough has not warmed up enough, I just give it more warmup time. If the shrinkage is because the dough has not fully fermented, I wait a couple of minutes to allow the gluten to relax, and stretch the dough back out again to the final desired size. It is usually unnecessary to have to do this more than once or twice, but it can happen. Just let the dough rest, and try again.

4) The way you made one large dough ball and divided it into two small ones is fine. In fact, I think that is the better method for a cold-fermented (refrigerated) dough like the Lehmann dough.

I wish you continued good success.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 04:11:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline sankoff

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #653 on: May 27, 2008, 05:35:45 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for your answers...

The flour i use is 13.10% protein level.... too much?

if there is, also i can make the doug with all-purpose flour.

PD: thanks for your comment about my english.... i will travel to U.S. with friends for a "coast to coast" this summer  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 05:39:02 PM by sankoff »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #654 on: May 27, 2008, 06:01:37 PM »
The flour i use is 13.10% protein level.... too much?
...PD: thanks for your comment about my english.... i will travel to U.S. with friends for a "coast to coast" this summer  ;D ;D

Javier,

That flour should work just fine. In the U.S,. high-gluten flour has a protein content of around 14-14.2%; a good bread flour has around 12.7%. So you are positioned right between these two numbers. In fact, some millers would refer to your flour as a "medium high-gluten" flour.

When you are in the U.S., you should definitely try out a few NY style pizza places. They can be found across the U.S. but, as you might suspect, the most and best ones will be in the NYC area, where you will find both NY "street" style pizzas (often sold by the slice) and the thinner NY "elite" style pizzas. If your plans call for being in NYC, you might do some searching on the forum before you leave for the U.S. to get names of the best and most popular places. You should also sample other styles of pizza that are popular in different parts of the U.S.

Peter

Offline sankoff

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #655 on: May 28, 2008, 04:55:18 AM »
When you are in the U.S., you should definitely try out a few NY style pizza places.

of course i will.... ;D

peter, only one more question:
making lehmann´s recipe, how many days with the dough into the refrigerator do you think are best?? may i wait until the end of rising progress (3 or 4 days)??

thank you.
i will post pics of my pizzas :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #656 on: May 28, 2008, 08:22:56 AM »
peter, only one more question:
making lehmann´s recipe, how many days with the dough into the refrigerator do you think are best?? may i wait until the end of rising progress (3 or 4 days)??

Javier,

If you make a normal Lehmann style dough following the usual instructions, three or four days is pushing it a bit, especially if you didn't add any sugar to the dough to keep the yeast well fed. The only way to know for sure in your case is to test the dough for your particular conditions and see what happens. I have made Lehmann doughs that have lasted a lot longer than three or four days but I had to take special steps not normally used with a Lehmann dough to get the dough to last that long.

Peter

Offline Fingerstyle

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #657 on: June 15, 2008, 12:23:21 PM »
Peter,

Thank you so much for the amazing research and careful documentation you've shared here. Your posts are a treasure trove of helpful information. Your summary roadmap is very handy too!

I've been pretty happy with  JerryMac's 1 day, but found myself wanting more robust crust flavor. So, I was intrigued with your post #175 and gave it a try yesterday. I deviated by doubling the recipe, substituting Giusto's Unbleached Ultimate Performer, risen with Goldrush sourdough  rye preferment.

The high dough volume made proper mixing problematic - it took a lot of pulsing to arrive at a ball, perhaps building too much gluten prior to autolyse. Next time I will stick with your original quantities and make two batches.

After the autolyse in the (KA) food processor bowl, the dough volume/consistency was no longer pulse-able so I moved ingredients over to the KA mixer. Adding the oil eased hook kneading a bit. After pushing it down off the hook several times, I hand kneaded for a few minutes. Final dough temp was 72 deg. F.

To my surprise/delight, ten hours later the dough had nearly tripled in volume.  I portioned four  pieces. The first I stretched very unevenly, and had several thin areas and tears. I figured I'd  just be more careful with the others and reball and try the first again later. The dough was surprisingly elastic. With a short rest at ~10" diameter, stretching it into a 13" "round" was facilitated (the advantage of round container ball storage again clearly demonstrated) .

Anticipating a very extensible dough I conclude I over-kneaded, as I found the dough  somewhat  difficult to handle. That notwithstanding, the finished pies, topped with drained, pulsed Muir Glen tomato, Fresh mozz, and pepperoni were quite good. Moderate spring, nice tooth too. Baked at 650 in a Villa Roma LBE.

PS by the time I finished baking the third pie the reformed ball 1 "looked" ready to cooperate - it wasn't. Rather than refire and bake a one-off later, I reluctantly rolled it, To my relief it too developed a cornice, but not as high as the hand formed. I forgot to use the rubber bands on the roller trick (to obtain an even thickness) though my eyeballing roll worked fine.

I think this recipe is a great "one-day" and the timing works much better for me than does the JerryMac. I have to admit though, the flavor developed in a 3 day fridge ferment is still more to my liking.

Thank you again! Looking forward to more of your great posts.

Vic
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #658 on: June 15, 2008, 01:12:36 PM »
Vic,

I'm glad to hear that you were able to get good results with the dough formulation I posted at Reply 175 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12748.html#msg12748. That was a highly unusual dough formulation because it was based on using a cold, unrefreshed starter right out of the refrigerator and also cold water to make the "preferment" dough to use the next day after an overnight room temperature fermentation. No doubt my starter was not as active as it should have been, which perhaps accounted for the low rise of the finished dough ball. I might add that these days I would use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to do all of the number crunching. At the time I posted Reply 175, the tool did not even exist. It wasn't even a gleam in my eye. Today, I almost can't function without the different tools that now exist at the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html, including the Lehmann dough calculating tool that was named in honor of Tom Lehmann, and also member November's creative tools at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. I can now do things that I couldn't have done before, and much more quickly and with greater confidence in my results.

You indicated that you reworked one or more of the dough balls before shaping and stretching. That is something that I do not advocate that people do because it will cause the gluten matrix to tighten up and cause the dough to become overly elastic and prone to the formation of tears and thin spots. If you allow the dough balls to relax, the gluten structure will eventually soften up and enable the dough to be usable but it can sometimes take hours for this to happen and, even then, the dough may not be of as high a quality as a dough that is gently handled and not reworked or re-kneaded. Subjecting the "bucky" dough to a small amount of heat, as in a preheated oven at around 100-125 degrees F, will help speed up the process of making the gluten and dough more manageable.

The Lehmann thread was a labor of love, and it taught me a good part of what I know about pizza making. That has allowed me to speak from personal experience rather than from what I might have read somewhere along the way. I think my diagnostic, predictive, and design skills also got better from all the experiments I conducted on the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that started the whole thread.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:33:01 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Fingerstyle

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #659 on: June 15, 2008, 03:53:15 PM »
Peter,

My next iteration of your post #175 dough will use the preferment tool, FP-sized small batches, and final ball proof in individual round containers.

My hat's off to you and Mike for the calculators. I've been using both Lehmann and Preferment tools with great results.  As you suggested, I used the preferment tool for a whole wheat Leahy no-knead formulation. Works great. I'm on the fifth batch now, each better than the previous, albeit no longer "no-knead".

I'm going to try to go back to using a food processor for pizza dough. I used the Cuisinart FP exclusively years ago (before I got a KA Pro6 mixer for high capacity / heavy bread dough) and was always surprised at the dough quality and quick process time. I've got a larger KA FP now, and since it doesn't slice well (main reason I bought it)  :-[ it will be good to get some use of the larger work bowl.

Thanks again,

Vic
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