Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 533403 times)

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Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1140 on: April 13, 2015, 07:56:36 AM »
Morning, Peter (and everyone). We made pizza again this weekend and have another question as a result.

I used my KABF/VWG 63% hydration recipe following TL's workflow. Did a 3-day cold ferment. The taste, color and texture of the cooked crust was great, no complaints there. My issue is that the dough balls were a bit hard to stretch, even after sitting at room temp for 2 hours. I started out pressing out the ball into a flat circle, but the only way I could really get it to stretch is if I picked it up and let gravity stretch it as I turned it with my hands. I haven't figured out how to do the "slap" technique, so this is the only way I know how to stretch out the dough.

Is this typical of this kind of dough or am I doing something wrong here? I know stretching the dough is something that takes time to learn, but I wanted to make sure that it wasn't something else (too much/not enough mixing, too much/not enough water, etc.).

My previous recipe used 00 flour and 60% hydration and was so easy to open, it nearly stretched itself. Almost too much so; sometimes it was too thin and resulted in holes. Maybe I'm expecting this new recipe to be the same.

Thanks again.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1141 on: April 13, 2015, 02:13:37 PM »
Morning, Peter (and everyone). We made pizza again this weekend and have another question as a result.

I used my KABF/VWG 63% hydration recipe following TL's workflow. Did a 3-day cold ferment. The taste, color and texture of the cooked crust was great, no complaints there. My issue is that the dough balls were a bit hard to stretch, even after sitting at room temp for 2 hours. I started out pressing out the ball into a flat circle, but the only way I could really get it to stretch is if I picked it up and let gravity stretch it as I turned it with my hands. I haven't figured out how to do the "slap" technique, so this is the only way I know how to stretch out the dough.

Is this typical of this kind of dough or am I doing something wrong here? I know stretching the dough is something that takes time to learn, but I wanted to make sure that it wasn't something else (too much/not enough mixing, too much/not enough water, etc.).

My previous recipe used 00 flour and 60% hydration and was so easy to open, it nearly stretched itself. Almost too much so; sometimes it was too thin and resulted in holes. Maybe I'm expecting this new recipe to be the same.

Thanks again.
pfhlad0,

I think your hydration value is fine but you want to be sure that you do not overknead the dough. Ideally, you want to slightly underknead the dough and let the gluten development take place biochemically while in the refrigerator. This is contrary to the way that bread dough is often made where the dough is kneaded to full gluten development. You can also use autolyse or similar rest periods, during the bulk stage or after the dough balls have been formed and before refrigerating, to help improve the extensibility of the dough.

You also want to be sure that you do not re-knead or otherwise re-form the dough balls after you remove them from the refrigerator since that will only tighten the dough balls and make them overly elastic and hard to work with and form into skins (I suspect that you already know this). But even under the best of conditions, if you are using a standard home mixer to mix and knead the dough, you are unlikely to achieve dough that is as robust as dough made in a commercial setting using a commercial mixer (typically a Hobart planetary mixer). People will often watch Tony Gemignani handle dough in a video and observe how he opens dough balls into skins so easily and with an even thickness and wonder why their dough balls made at home aren't as good. A good part of the answer is that a home stand mixer is no match for a commercial mixer.

In your case, I suspect that with more experience and practice you will get better at opening up dough balls into skins. To help you with this, I am bringing the following videos to your attention, several of which feature Tom Lehmann and his former assistant at the AIB, Jeff Zeak, and one featuring Tony Gemignani, and the last one featuring a worker at a Papa John's showing the hand-to-hand skin slapping method (again, with a commercially produced dough):











Peter





Offline Trickydick

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1142 on: April 13, 2015, 04:07:30 PM »
Enjoyed watching these videos,  well the last one not as much as the first few. 
Read the thread about crispy bottom pizza, and I think I'll try to do a lower hydration and longer temp bake at a lower oven temp.
I think what I've been cooking is a hybrid style someplace between a Neapolitan and NY style in my WFO.  Been wanting to to go all Neo style but I think that the type I do now is easier on my timetable for the preparation and preheating.  I had a few really nice NYC style pies lately (commercially baked) and thought it would be fun to try something like that, maybe with a thick cornice and a ridiculous diameter too.  I think that I have probably NOT been mixing my dough long enough after watching the video.  I'll be doing the egg pinch and pull test from now on!
TD

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1143 on: April 13, 2015, 10:51:55 PM »
Thanks for the videos, Peter. I can't believe the kid in the last one. He was great!

Anyway, I don't think I overmixed because I did the egg test and probably could have mixed longer. I didn't becsuse I remember your advice about not over mixing. FWIW, I have a Bosch Universal mixer; I mixed 2 minutes on low, added oil and mixed 1 more minute on low, then mixed 10 minutes on second speed. Like I said, I did the egg test after that and still saw some tearing, but stopped anyway.

I guess I'll just praftice my stretching techniques and hope it gets better.

Wonder how long before I can spin like the young guy.  ;)

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1144 on: April 15, 2015, 09:44:41 AM »
Just out of curiosity, any thoughts on what would happen if I used the same recipe/quantities/workflow but substituted Caputo 00 flour for the KABF? From what I've read, the protein content of the 00 flour is 12.5, nearly the same as the KABF. I'm guessing I'd have to reduce the hydration a tad since the KABF has a higher absorption capability.

Just wondering if it would make for a more pliable dough ball and a lighter/thinner crust.

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1145 on: April 15, 2015, 03:42:41 PM »
Just out of curiosity, any thoughts on what would happen if I used the same recipe/quantities/workflow but substituted Caputo 00 flour for the KABF? From what I've read, the protein content of the 00 flour is 12.5, nearly the same as the KABF. I'm guessing I'd have to reduce the hydration a tad since the KABF has a higher absorption capability.

Just wondering if it would make for a more pliable dough ball and a lighter/thinner crust.
pfhlad0,

I will try to answer your questions as best I can but I will point out at the outset that one would not use the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour for the NY style. There are several reasons for this. First, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is an unmalted flour and has less damaged starch than our domestic white flours, including the KABF. What this means is that there is less damaged starch for the natural amylase enzymes in the flour to convert to natural sugars to feed the yeast and for final crust coloration purposes. That is why pizzas made with 00 flour are baked at extremely high oven temperatures of around 900 degrees F and above. So, to adapt the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour to work at lower oven temperatures, you would have to either (1) add diastatic malt, (2) increase the amount of damaged starch, or (3) blend the flour with a high-gluten flour. Of these three options, the only one I have observed in practice is the third option, which is the one that Dom DeMarco uses at DiFara's to make his brand of NY style pizza. When I researched his dough, he blended 00 flour with a high-gluten flour in a 75/25 ratio.

It is true that the protein content of the Caputo Pizzeria flour, at around 12.5% (see http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pizzeria-SPECS.pdf), is very similar to the 12.7% protein of the KABF. But because two flours have the same protein content does not mean that doughs made from the two flours will perform the same. Both the amount of gluten formed from the two flours and the quality of the gluten so formed can be different. Also, in the case of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, it is milled to a smaller particle size than the KABF and has a rated absorption value of 55-57%, which compares with the 62% rated absorption value of the KABF. Some members are able to use a higher hydration value with the Caputo flour, but once you get above, say, 60%, the dough can be difficult for most people to handle. However, this problem can be mitigated by using a series of stretch and folds.

I suppose that I could design a dough formulation on paper that tries to mimic the NY style dough for the recipe you are using, but it would be a kluge with diastatic malt (only as much as the dough can take given its reduced damaged starch levels) and one or two sweeteners, preferably including one that has natural sugars in free form (like the monosaccharides glucose and fructose) to be immediately available to feed the yeast and eventually contribute to residual sugar levels for crust coloration purposes through the Maillard reactions. The other sweetener would most likely be sucrose, or ordinary table sugar, which would eventually be cleaved into glucose and fructose.

In my opinion, it would be far easier to just combine the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour with a higher protein, higher-gluten flour. Even then, the temperatures of a standard home oven might not be quite enough, as we have learned from the high oven temperatures that Dom DeMarco is alleged to be using.

Peter

Offline pfhlad0

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1146 on: April 15, 2015, 08:54:29 PM »
Thanks for the informative reply. My one complaint with my 00 flour recipe was that the crust didn't brown well enough. Now I know why. I think I'm going to stick with my current recipe. It really did turn out great, so I should stick with it.

Thanks again.


 

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