Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style

[nick57]

 I agree with Mad Ernie that Neapolitan style pizza is a very hard style to create. They were my first tries at home pizza. You need high temps that you can't get with a home oven. A WFO is the best oven for this style. I do par bake my crusts. I do 2 or 3 minutes in the pan on a stone. Then I remove the skin from the pan and finish the skin for another 2 minutes or so on the stone. I let the skin cool to room temp before topping and back onto the stone to finish. Letting the skin cool before topping it creates a crisper crust.

[norma427]

Mad_Ernie and nick57,

I did do other experiments with trying to make a cracker style pizza at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146068.html#msg146068 with a dough enhancer and another one at Reply 135 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146736.html#msg146736 and another one at Reply 145 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg147690.html#msg147690  with the final pictures of the attempted cracker style at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg147983.html#msg147983 and yet another experiment with a cracker style at Reply 175 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148333.html#msg148333 with the final pictures at Reply 184 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148654.html#msg148654  and one last experiment on a cracker style at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg153481.html#msg153481 with another failed cracker style pizza.

I finally got up the courage to try again after I got my cutter pan at Reply 12 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16803.msg164367.html#msg164367

The above experiments all were with the help of Peter and I still failed.

I didn’t sift my flour and had forgot what size my cutter pan was when figuring out a formulation on the expanded dough calculation tool for my recent cracker style attempt. My cutter pan was at market when I mixed the dough and did the calculations.  If I would have thought about me posting about the cutter pan at the time I did the calculations I would have been able to search and see I purchased a 10” cutter pan.  As could be seen I used 13” in the expanded dough calculation tool, to be cut down to 12” at Reply 162 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg183931.html#msg183931  Then when I got to market I tried to roll the dough a little thinner before I cut it to fit into the 10” pan with no luck.  As can be seen I probably had the wrong TF again.  I might make another attempt this weekend, but if that doesn’t work out I might retire my cutter pan for other pizzas, other than a cracker style.  I had too many failures already and since I never really ate a cracker style pizza, really don’t know exactly how they should be other than hearing other members describe them or seeing pictures on the forum.

As far as Neapolitan pizzas being hard, they really aren’t.  If you want to be able to make Neapolitan pizzas with starters they are a little harder, but regular doughs do work out well in a wood-fired oven.  I have seen that in Steve’s wood-fired oven.  The heat of a wood-fired oven almost helps any decent dough from NY style to other higher hydration doughs.

Norma

[Mad_Ernie]

As far as Neapolitan pizzas being hard, they really aren’t.  If you want to be able to make Neapolitan pizzas with starters they are a little harder, but regular doughs do work out well in a wood-fired oven.  I have seen that in Steve’s wood-fired oven.  The heat of a wood-fired oven almost helps any decent dough from NY style to other higher hydration doughs.

Norma

Therein lies the rub.  As nick57 pointed out, heat is the biggest factor that I lack.  The dough itself is not that hard after you've had some practice making doughs (except I do agree with you Norma on using something fancier, like a sourdough starter, may make it a little more difficult), but heat is the issue.  I don't own a wood-fired oven, and my 2-stone device on my gas grill, although better at generating heat, still cannot make it much beyond 650 degrees F according to my infra-red temperature gun.  Perhaps using a soap-stone instead of the Fibrament stone that comes with it would be a better choice, but I have had soap-stones break after subjecting them to really high temperatures for lengthy periods of time.

Btw, I LOVE using my 2-Stone for making American Midwestern style/cracker-style crust pizzas.  It does work very well for that type of pizza (and NY style, too).  So even if someone is not making a Neapolitan-style pizza, heat >500 degrees is still a benefit. 

-ME

[Mad_Ernie]

Mad_Ernie and nick57,

I did do other experiments with trying to make a cracker style pizza at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146068.html#msg146068 with a dough enhancer and another one at Reply 135 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146736.html#msg146736 and another one at Reply 145 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg147690.html#msg147690  with the final pictures of the attempted cracker style at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg147983.html#msg147983 and yet another experiment with a cracker style at Reply 175 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148333.html#msg148333 with the final pictures at Reply 184 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148654.html#msg148654  and one last experiment on a cracker style at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg153481.html#msg153481 with another failed cracker style pizza.

I finally got up the courage to try again after I got my cutter pan at Reply 12 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16803.msg164367.html#msg164367

The above experiments all were with the help of Peter and I still failed.

I didn’t sift my flour and had forgot what size my cutter pan was when figuring out a formulation on the expanded dough calculation tool for my recent cracker style attempt. My cutter pan was at market when I mixed the dough and did the calculations.  If I would have thought about me posting about the cutter pan at the time I did the calculations I would have been able to search and see I purchased a 10” cutter pan.  As could be seen I used 13” in the expanded dough calculation tool, to be cut down to 12” at Reply 162 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg183931.html#msg183931  Then when I got to market I tried to roll the dough a little thinner before I cut it to fit into the 10” pan with no luck.  As can be seen I probably had the wrong TF again.  I might make another attempt this weekend, but if that doesn’t work out I might retire my cutter pan for other pizzas, other than a cracker style.  I had too many failures already and since I never really ate a cracker style pizza, really don’t know exactly how they should be other than hearing other members describe them or seeing pictures on the forum.
Norma

Norma:

Thanks for the links to those previous posts.  Just looking at the pictures, the doughs and final product look fine, but your descriptions help me to better understand the problem that you are having.  I have a few suggestions that you may want to try for your next test on a cracker crust, if you can.

1. Try sifting the flour.  I know it seems like such a minute thing, but that was one trick I picked up from Pete-zza early on when I first came to the main forum and I have used it with all of my pizza doughs ever since.  I think it does help.

2. The vegetable oil content I saw was 3.5% from a recipe you posted.  I recommend starting somewhere around 2 to 2.5% for the fat content. 

3. It appears you are using a mixer (KitchenAid or some other brand) to make the dough.  I don't know if you have access to a food-processor (e.g., Quisinart), but I would also recommend mixing the ingredients in that device instead.  You can either slowly drizzle the water in while it is mixing, or you can just add the water all at once - I don't know that it makes much difference, but I usually drizzle it in as the other ingredients are mixing.  The dough will get quite crumbly, and you will have to sort of pour the tiny bits into a bag (I use an old store bread plastic bag, again ala Pete-zza), or between two sheets of plastic wrap and *gently* put it together and seal it up.  Don't try to compact it into a nice ball shape - just bring all of the bits together as gently as possible.   Let it rise at room temperature for at least a couple hours.  If you notice it doubling or more in size after 1 to 1.5 hours, then try opening the bag, folding it a little (just 3-4 times) and seal it back up for another 1 to 1.5 hours.  Then refrigerate it at least overnight.

4. I have not done it, but judging by the results others have gotten on this forum, I think par-baking is definitely the way to go.  It seems you have done that before with good results.  It appears to drive out some of the moisture in the dough initially before the final baking, which would be a good thing for this type of crust.  So, keep with the par-bake.

5. Use as much heat as you can in the final bake, i.e., don't feel you only need to bake it between 450-500 degrees for the final bake.

Looking forward to seeing the results of your next cracker-style pizza!

-ME

[Chicago Bob]

From what I've seen on the forum, lard may be the way to go. I was thinking about using Crisco in the future. I was wondering if I use it straight out of the can or heat it up a little so it is in liquid form?

Now you're talking.....back in the day (early seventies) we first mixed the flour with room temp. lard in the big Hobart using the round whisk attachment several minutes till the flour was sort of pelletized, very fine grainy, then switched over to the hook.

Bob

[norma427]

Norma:

Thanks for the links to those previous posts.  Just looking at the pictures, the doughs and final product look fine, but your descriptions help me to better understand the problem that you are having.  I have a few suggestions that you may want to try for your next test on a cracker crust, if you can.

1. Try sifting the flour.  I know it seems like such a minute thing, but that was one trick I picked up from Pete-zza early on when I first came to the main forum and I have used it with all of my pizza doughs ever since.  I think it does help.

2. The vegetable oil content I saw was 3.5% from a recipe you posted.  I recommend starting somewhere around 2 to 2.5% for the fat content. 

3. It appears you are using a mixer (KitchenAid or some other brand) to make the dough.  I don't know if you have access to a food-processor (e.g., Quisinart), but I would also recommend mixing the ingredients in that device instead.  You can either slowly drizzle the water in while it is mixing, or you can just add the water all at once - I don't know that it makes much difference, but I usually drizzle it in as the other ingredients are mixing.  The dough will get quite crumbly, and you will have to sort of pour the tiny bits into a bag (I use an old store bread plastic bag, again ala Pete-zza), or between two sheets of plastic wrap and *gently* put it together and seal it up.  Don't try to compact it into a nice ball shape - just bring all of the bits together as gently as possible.   Let it rise at room temperature for at least a couple hours.  If you notice it doubling or more in size after 1 to 1.5 hours, then try opening the bag, folding it a little (just 3-4 times) and seal it back up for another 1 to 1.5 hours.  Then refrigerate it at least overnight.

4. I have not done it, but judging by the results others have gotten on this forum, I think par-baking is definitely the way to go.  It seems you have done that before with good results.  It appears to drive out some of the moisture in the dough initially before the final baking, which would be a good thing for this type of crust.  So, keep with the par-bake.

5. Use as much heat as you can in the final bake, i.e., don't feel you only need to bake it between 450-500 degrees for the final bake.

Looking forward to seeing the results of your next cracker-style pizza!

-ME

Mad_Ernie,

Thanks so much for giving me a list of things to try in my next attempt.   I will remember to sift the flour for the next attempt.  If I use a lower amount of oil won’t my dough be drier than it already was in my last attempt?  I thought it was too dry with 36% of water in the formulation, but then maybe it was too dry from not sifting the flour.  I didn’t use my Kitchen Aid mixer for any of the attempts.  I don’t have a Quisinart, but do have a food processor I used for all of my attempts.  Thanks for the tip to sort of pour the tiny bits into a bag.  Maybe I tried to compact the dough too much also when I made the dough ball.  I put most of my dough balls into my homemade proofing box which gets to around a little over 100 degrees F, for about a little over 2 hrs, so the dough would roll out easier.  Don’t you recommend a proofing box with such a low hydration?  I think I would need the arms of Popeye to be able to roll out the dough without a proofing box at that low of hydration.    Thanks also for telling me to use as much heat as I can in the final bake.  I am going to try and par-bake again. 

This might be my last attempt.  I am going to change the flour to Better for Bread too.

Norma

[Mad_Ernie]

Mad_Ernie,

Thanks so much for giving me a list of things to try in my next attempt.   I will remember to sift the flour for the next attempt.  If I use a lower amount of oil won’t my dough be drier than it already was in my last attempt?  I thought it was too dry with 36% of water in the formulation, but then maybe it was too dry from not sifting the flour.  I didn’t use my Kitchen Aid mixer for any of the attempts.  I don’t have a Quisinart, but do have a food processor I used for all of my attempts.  Thanks for the tip to sort of pour the tiny bits into a bag.  Maybe I tried to compact the dough too much also when I made the dough ball.  I put most of my dough balls into my homemade proofing box which gets to around a little over 100 degrees F, for about a little over 2 hrs, so the dough would roll out easier.  Don’t you recommend a proofing box with such a low hydration?  I think I would need the arms of Popeye to be able to roll out the dough without a proofing box at that low of hydration.    Thanks also for telling me to use as much heat as I can in the final bake.  I am going to try and par-bake again. 

This might be my last attempt.  I am going to change the flour to Better for Bread too.

Norma

That sounds good, Norma.  You could kick up the water percentage a tad if you think it was too dry.  I would stick to <42% for a true cracker crust.  I hear you about the Popeye arms.    And, yes, do not over-compress the dough.  Just keep the tiny bits together, but more on the loose side.  Keep using that food processor.  Chicago Bob's comments got me thinking that using a whisk attachment in a big Hobart mixer might achieve similar results.

I think the Better for Bread flour also works well for this type of dough.

Good luck! 

-ME

[TXCraig1]

Interesting you say that because for a long time I thought some New York style recipes were harder than the Midwestern/Cracker-style recipes.  When I say harder, I mean getting the final product to come out like you have seen others do, or how you envisioned it in your own head.  Lately, I am thinking the Neapolitan style is probably even more temperamental.  Experience is a big help, I must say.

They all have a lot of variables that can play havoc from day to day or pie to pie. What probably makes NP seem harder is that the definition is a lot more precise and narrow.

CL

[norma427]

That sounds good, Norma.  You could kick up the water percentage a tad if you think it was too dry.  I would stick to <42% for a true cracker crust.  I hear you about the Popeye arms.    And, yes, do not over-compress the dough.  Just keep the tiny bits together, but more on the loose side.  Keep using that food processor.  Chicago Bob's comments got me thinking that using a whisk attachment in a big Hobart mixer might achieve similar results.

I think the Better for Bread flour also works well for this type of dough.

Good luck! 

-ME

Mad_Ernie,

Thanks for telling me I can upped the hydration to 42% for a true cracker style crust and not to over compress the dough.  I think that was another of my problems.

Thanks for the good luck!  I will need it, because I have been doing something wrong in all of my experiments for a cracker style so far.   

Norma

[norma427]

They all have a lot of variables that can play havoc from day to day or pie to pie. What probably makes NP seem harder is that the definition is a lot more precise and narrow.

CL

Craig,

Try a cracker style dough if you think the NP is a lot more precise and narrow.     One wrong move and you have a Chicago thin crust and not a crackery crust.    At least a wood-fired oven compensates with the heat to make a tasty pie, even if they don't look perfect.

Norma

[Randy]

Of late I have been using poolish on the cracker crust recipe with very good results.  Norma, you might this a try.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17962.0.html


I have tried Crisco and increasing the fat but I keep coming back to a recipe close to DKM and Steve's.

Randy

[Mad_Ernie]

Of late I have been using poolish on the cracker crust recipe with very good results.  Norma, you might this a try.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17962.0.html


I have tried Crisco and increasing the fat but I keep coming back to a recipe close to DKM and Steve's.

Randy

Very nice, Randy.  You've given yet another recipe I need to add to my list to try. 

-ME

[Randy]

This is sure a good one ME.  What makes this recipe a bit better is the time the yeast has to develop and in that I think is the key to a cracker crust.

 I can't count the times I tried using instant yeast and mix it in with the flour instead of the water and all them failed to produce a good cracker crust.  When I mixed instant yeast in water as if it were to be proofed it worked fine.  The poolish as you can see is just a way to enhance the yeast development further than the original proofing step.  That is my take on it anyway.

Good luck with it when you give it a try.

Randy

[norma427]

Of late I have been using poolish on the cracker crust recipe with very good results.  Norma, you might this a try.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17962.0.html


I have tried Crisco and increasing the fat but I keep coming back to a recipe close to DKM and Steve's.

Randy

Randy,

Your poolish cracker crust pizza does look very good.     After I give the same formulation another try with maybe some more water, I might try your poolish cracker crust formulation. 

Thanks for the link! 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

While you are considering alternative cracker-style doughs, you might also take a look at the series of posts starting at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48113.html#msg48113.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

While you are considering alternative cracker-style doughs, you might also take a look at the series of posts starting at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48113.html#msg48113.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for giving me another alternative cracker style pizza to try with a natural preferment.  I do have my Ischia starter active and also have KASL flour, so I also might try your formulation in contrast with the other formulation I have been trying, since you posted it was reasonably easy and tasted great. I like using natural preferments. I hope I can get a cracker style pizza right one of these days.  I also think I have to learn the distinction between crispy and cracker-like, but don‘t think I have achieved a cracker-like crust yet.  If I try your formulation, do you advise me to use my cutter pan for a par-bake and final bake or just par-bake on the deck and then cool the crust and bake again?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

It was Randy's post on his poolish cracker style dough that reminded me of Tom Lehmann's recipe and my adaptation of it to incorporate a natural preferment. The idea behind the adaptation was to get more crust flavor through an ample production of byproducts of fermentation.

As far as pre-baking the pizza on a stone or using a cutter pan, I think you can go either way, as I discussed in the thread I referenced. However, one advantage to using the cutter pan is that you can put the cheese and toppings right out to the outer edge of the cutter pan and not worry about the cheese or toppings sliding off of the crust onto the baking stone. This will usually not be a problem if you are using only a small number of toppings. In my experiments in the thread I referenced, I used mainly pepperoni.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Craig,

Try a cracker style dough if you think the NP is a lot more precise and narrow.     One wrong move and you have a Chicago thin crust and not a crackery crust.    At least a wood-fired oven compensates with the heat to make a tasty pie, even if they don't look perfect.

Norma

I've never made a cracker crust pizza, but I have made a lot of different kinds of crackers. Maybe I'll give it a try sometime.

CL

[norma427]

Norma,

It was Randy's post on his poolish cracker style dough that reminded me of Tom Lehmann's recipe and my adaptation of it to incorporate a natural preferment. The idea behind the adaptation was to get more crust flavor through an ample production of byproducts of fermentation.

As far as pre-baking the pizza on a stone or using a cutter pan, I think you can go either way, as I discussed in the thread I referenced. However, one advantage to using the cutter pan is that you can put the cheese and toppings right out to the outer edge of the cutter pan and not worry about the cheese or toppings sliding off of the crust onto the baking stone. This will usually not be a problem if you are using only a small number of toppings. In my experiments in the thread I referenced, I used mainly pepperoni.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting it was Randy’s post about his poolish cracker style dough that reminded you of the Tom Lehmann’s recipe of your incorporating a natural preferment into a cracker style.  I think a natural preferment is a good idea for a cracker style.

I probably will use my cutter pan, but will have to figure out of the dough calculation tools how to go about a formulation for my 10” cutter pan.  I also have Lloyd’s  Hearth Baked Pizza disks I might try out if my experiment is successful. http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/quik-disks/hearth-bake-disks  I think you referenced that you might think about trying one of them out in your link.

Norma

[norma427]

I've never made a cracker crust pizza, but I have made a lot of different kinds of crackers. Maybe I'll give it a try sometime.

CL

Craig,

You probably would be a natural if you ever tried out a cracker style since you made a lot of different kinds of crackers before.    I often thought about making crackers to sell at market, but never really learned how to do that.  Maybe someday you could start a thread about making crackers. 

Norma