Author Topic: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style  (Read 73815 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2007, 05:27:45 PM »
Mark,

You can use either. In fact, I have been using a light olive oil for the most part. The reason I specified vegetable oil is that DKM's original recipe specifies vegetable oil. I think DKM's recipe was a clone of what Pizza Inn used, and no doubt they used vegetable oil because it is cheaper than olive oil. There shouldn't be a reason why you can't use butter, or ghee, if you wish, in lieu of the oil. Technically, you would adjust the formula hydration a bit because butter includes 16% water (salted) or 18% (unsalted). Ghee, one of Jon's favorites, is 100% fat, with no water. Tom Lehmann has a cracker-style dough recipe that calls optionally for butter in the dough. I would think that butter, or ghee, would add nice flavor tones to a cracker-style crust.

I look forward to the results of your 700 degree F bake. That may tell us a lot.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 05:29:25 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2007, 02:49:05 PM »
Having established that it was possible to use the dough warming method I previously described with the modified DKM low-hydration doughs prepared using a food processor and a stand mixer, I wondered whether it would be possible to use the same dough warming method with a low-hydration dough prepared another way—specifically, by hand. I wasn’t sure whether I could actually make such a dough by hand but having paid careful attention to the dough physics of my last several doughs discussed in this thread, I decided to attempt an experiment to see if I could replicate the dough physics in a hand kneaded dough.

For the experiment, I decided to make enough dough for a 12” pizza. For this purpose, I used the same dough formulation as the last one but entered a value of 13” for the desired pizza size into the expanded dough calculating tool. From a skin of 13” I would cut a 12” final skin. The dough formulation I used was as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (36%):
IDY (1%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%):
Sugar (1.2%):
Total (143.45%):
183.62 g  |  6.48 oz | 0.4 lbs
66.1 g  |  2.33 oz | 0.15 lbs
1.84 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
3.21 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
6.43 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.42 tsp | 0.47 tbsp
2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
263.41 g | 9.29 oz | 0.58 lbs | TF = 0.07

To prepare the dough, I started by sifting the flour (Harvest King), to which I added the IDY and stirred to incorporate. The formula water, at room temperature, was then placed into a large mixing bowl, and the salt and sugar were added to the water and stirred until dissolved, about 30 seconds. The flour/IDY was then added at about two tablespoons at a time into the water in the bowl, using a standard kitchen fork to incorporate the ingredients. I continued this until approximately two-thirds of the flour had been added and a fairly wet dough mass had formed around the fork. The reason I used the fork was to minimize gluten development, which could make the finished dough more difficult to roll out. I estimate that the dough mass formed around the fork had a hydration of about 52%. I then covered the bowl with a towel and let the dough rest for about 15 minutes, to allow for better hydration of the flour.

At the end of the 15-minute rest period, I added the remaining flour to the bowl, along with the oil. I combined the ingredients in the bowl as best I could by gently kneading them right in the bowl. The contents of the bowl were then emptied onto a work surface. I tried to incorporate the remaining ingredients as best I could, knowing that I would not be able to make a cohesive dough ball by hand. So, I took the dough ball as it had been formed to this point and tore it into small pieces about the size a nickel. I then spread the dough pieces and flour over the work surface into a fairly thin layer. The first photo below shows the results of that exercise. Using a simple spray bottle as shown in the second photo below, I then sprayed the dough materials on the work surface with water from the spray bottle. I estimate that it took about 20-25 sprays to cover everything.

I then gathered and pressed the dough pieces and loose flour together until I had a dough ball that held together. This turned out to be an easy task. I pressed the dough tightly between my cupped hands but I did not knead the dough ball because I did not want to overly develop the gluten structure. The third photo below shows the dough ball at this stage. I later estimated that adding the additional water by way of the spray bottle increased the hydration of the dough from its starting value of 36% to about 38.5%. So, the dough was still a low-hydration dough.

The finished dough ball then went into my proofing box for about 2 hours at a temperature of around 110-115 degrees F. The dough about doubled while in the proofing box. The fourth photo below shows the dough ball at that point. I then flattened the dough ball gently by hand and rolled it out to 13”. This was extremely easy to do—much easier than I was expecting. From the 13” skin, I cut a 12” skin using a 12” pizza screen as a template. The fifth photo below shows the 12” skin. I calculated that the thickness factor for the skin was 0.0615 based on a dough weight of 6.95 ounces. As before, I dusted the skin with a bit of flour, folded it into quarters, encased it in plastic wrap (as shown in the sixth photo below), and put it into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 2 days.

After I removed the dough skin from the refrigerator and let it warm up at room temperature for about an hour and a half, I rolled it out a bit more to compensate for minor shrinkage while the dough was in the refrigerator. After docking the 12” skin on both sides, I placed it into my 14” cutter pan that I had lightly pre-oiled. As before, the skin was then pre-baked, removed from the oven to be dressed (in this case with only sauce and cheese), and returned to the oven to complete the baking of the pizza. I estimate that the pre-bake took about 4 minutes, and the rest of the bake took about 7 minutes on the lowest oven rack position and a final 2 minutes at the topmost oven rack position, all at 475 degrees F.  The photos in the next post show the pre-baked crust and the finished pizza. 

The pizza was delicious, with a crispy and crackery crust. The pizza was the equal of the others in just about all respects. More importantly, the results demonstrate that it is possible to easily make a low-hydration dough by hand and, by using the dough warming method, to make a very good cracker-style pizza out of that hand kneaded dough.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2007, 02:57:11 PM »
And the photos of the pre-baked crust and the finished pizza...




Offline Jackitup

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2007, 03:38:02 PM »
Pete,
A question for you. It's probably been asked before but, have you tried using beer instead of water with your cracker crust, and how was it different, good/bad?? I made a cracker recipe yesterday that I will be cooking in a few hours and I forgot I was going to try beer in it. I'll try and post some pics later. Just looking for reproducible results from my last one which for me, was perfect. My buddy who doesn't cook but like eating it said it can't get better than the last one and he doesn't think I can do it twice. So why am I wanting to goof with it by trying beer??? The old saying...'because I can'... I guess. Just want to see if it would make a big difference or not. Your thoughts??
Jon
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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2007, 03:45:43 PM »
Jon,

No, I haven't tried beer, although I know that other members have used beer for other styles of pizza. It may be worth a try, however, with the cracker style. My thoughts in the flavor department is to use butter in the dough or possibly a natural preferment, just as I tried with the Lehmann cracker-style dough formulation.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2007, 04:25:26 PM »
Still off work from my ankle surgery, probably til middle of Dec. so all I got is time...more pizza and more belly. I'll give the beer a try sometime this next week and let you know what I think. Not that I'm unhappy with what I've got, just curious on the flavor difference. Got all my stuff cut and prepped for tonites pie. By the way that last one you posted looked great.
Jon
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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2007, 11:09:41 AM »
Last nites pie. Crust was done as described by Pete's last post using his DKM recipe. Mixed with paddle til machine started to work heavy than autolysed for 15 minutes and finished with dough hook and proofed on counter for 28 hours. Before rolling I put container in a 110 degree water bath for 1 hr and rolled out great, docked on both sides, and oiled generously with ghee and flipped onto heavy duty foil and placed on stone for par-baking in a 500 degree oven. Got a little done in a couple spots as I was distracted making drinks for myself and guests...priorities... Crust got a real nice spread of bubbles. After crust was cooled it was again coated with ghee on the top to waterproof and then topped with sauce and cheese followed with onions, sausage, gr peppers, wild maitaki/hen of the woods mushrooms and more cheese the finished with some bacon crumbles. Crust was very airy, lite and crispy but at the same time sturdy enough to hold up to the toppings. Again thanks to Pete, DKM and others here who do all the leg work to make these recipes so much easier for the rest of us. As always great job guys, I think I've finally got this cracker crust dog whipped in to pretty good shape.
Here's some pics, again sorry for the cell phone pics, maybe Xmas will show up with a new dig camera!
Thanks all and if I don't post before... Everyone Have A Happy Thanksgiving!!!
Jon
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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2007, 11:31:31 AM »
Forgot to add one observation. There was 4 of us eating the pie last nite and when we were chewing, it literally sounded like we all were eating potato chips, that's how crispy it was in spite of some generous toppings.
Jon
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2007, 11:46:43 AM »
Using all the helpful hints and knowledge passed on so far...I had to try one more.  Made a 36% dough..thoroughly undermixed in my kitchenaid.  Let dough rise in a previously warmed oven for 2 hours.  Rolled a sheet of dough about one quarter inch thick...(very easily, since dough was warm).  Folded this sheet into three layers (remember, I'm convinced it is the compression of this dough which makes it good) and rolled it out again into a thin sheet (Not to hard and I was pleased I didn't have to work the hell out of it).  Cut out two skins using a template..and refrigerated overnight.  The next day, took skins out to warm up an hour...the skins were 7 inches in diameter and weighed 3.5 ounces,  there was about a half inch shrinkage from what I cut the day before.
The skins are not prebaked, they are simply dressed and thrown right on the oven stone in a 500 degree oven...they took about 8 minutes to cook...the results were fabulous...I could sell hundreds of these every day.  A previous post had concern that the skins were doughy looking.....the proper way to see if a skin is cooked is to look at a cross section that has been torn...not cut...and I tried to show this difference in the photos.  The bottom was crisp and tender....the dark coloration is a little mustard and pepperoni grease getting under the skin.  This was an excellent pizza...at least in what I'm looking for.
John

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2007, 01:43:16 PM »
I made a long-needed upgrade to my proofing box. I added a window so that I can see what is happening to the dough while in the proofing box. I also moved the instant read thermometer to the left side panel. I just poked it through the Styrofoam.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2007, 02:11:58 PM »
I think I've finally got this cracker crust dog whipped in to pretty good shape.

Jon,

I am paraphrasing somewhat, but I believe it was Randy who said that the DKM cracker-style pizza was one of the easiest to make but which requires close attention to the steps involved in the preparation of the pizza. I believe he is correct. I, too, think that it is one of the easiest recipes to practice. So, if you follow the steps carefully, such as the steps I tried to lay out in detail with my experiments, one should have a pretty good chance of success. In fact, the last experiment shows that one doesn't even need a food processor or stand mixer to achieve good results. All that one needs to make and process the dough is a large bowl, a kitchen fork, an inexpensive spray bottle, a rolling pin, and a pair of hands. It may even be possible to dispense with the sieve and sifting the flour (although I haven't tried that yet).

Of course, a source of heat for heating the dough is an important part of my "system". It can be a simple proofing box like mine, an MR-138 ThermoKool unit, a hot bowl of water (such as you used), or a preheated oven (as John used). I believe that heating the dough takes the pressure off of the dough to be perfect, or nearly so. I use a digital scale to weigh the flour and water, but heating the dough may allow more slack in the dough such that one may even be able to use volume measurements of flour and water and still get good results. I am not necessarily advocating that approach simply because I like to get consistent results and the digital scale plays into that objective.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 02:30:35 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2007, 02:28:37 PM »
The heating the dough before rolling thing definately makes a big difference. I've made several without doing that and as soon as I read about your proofing box I did the even cheaper version in the hot water bath, BIG difference when rolling. I think one does need to take care not to get too hot though. I to keep the water bath 105-110 degrees for an hour and the dough is well warmed thru. And being an avid sausage maker and blending diffent spices, I agree, digital gram scale is a must. I have 2, one that measures grams or ounces and the other grams, ounces or tenth of a gram both with tare buttons to zero. I wouldn't be without them.
Jon
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2007, 03:07:40 PM »
Wow very intersting results. John, did you use the same recipe or your own secret one? It seems like the lamination process ensured that there would be a thicker bottom layer which would remain crispy. The air pockets in the crust John made are all "above" this bottom crust layer. Whereas in the pizza Peter made, the bubbles appear to be more random in the finished crust. Also, it seems like the prebake of Peter's crust helped compensate for any differences in oven types and the lack of a sheeter. I am really impressed at the results you have obtained Peter without a sheeter nor folding the dough while rolling it out.

I have a question for Peter; During the process you ripped the doughball up into little pieces then just pressed them together. Do you think even though the dough was proofed this way that it's these "unincorporated" pieces that are giving rise to the bubbles in the crust? In other words, it's this ripped up "scraps" that bubble up because there is trapped moisture there from the water bottle? Basically it seems like this is successfully (not quite 100%) compensating for not laminating the dough in a sheeter. Even in the shot you have of the unbaked crust, you can see the scraps that aren't incorporated. This lends heavy support for scrap dough being used in this crust, which may be the cause for the inconsistencies at most "cracker" type parlours.

Another observation is Jon's pizza (jackitup). There doesn't seem to be the same amount of large size voids compared to the other two. This seems to be strictly technique, because he used the same recipe as Peter. However, if you look at the dough ball, it's really incorporated much more than what Peter did.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 03:59:58 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2007, 05:07:21 PM »
Hey Dan,
I didn't use a sheeter.  This was all done at home
John

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2007, 05:13:34 PM »
Rolled a sheet of dough about one quarter inch thick...(very easily, since dough was warm).  Folded this sheet into three layers (remember, I'm convinced it is the compression of this dough which makes it good) and rolled it out again into a thin sheet (Not to hard and I was pleased I didn't have to work the hell out of it).  Cut out two skins using a template..and refrigerated overnight. 
John

Oh my bad! I read your post incorrectly. Your usage of the word "sheet" got me all excited! I definitely have to try this recipe now. Ignoring my previous comments, I think the question still stands about the "shredded" dough.

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2007, 05:33:28 PM »
Dan,

The experiment that John Fazzari described in an earlier post today is very similar to one that I had been meaning to try once I got past the food processor/stand mixer/hand kneading issues. The last 7” test pizzas that John made used 3.5 ounces of dough. That translates to a thickness factor of about 0.091, which is close to what I calculated for the DKM dough skin (as it was formed in the cutter pan) when I originally tried the DKM dough recipe under this thread. In my case, the later crusts were quite a bit thinner. However, the idea of using a fairly thick dough skin, together with the lamination method, while dispensing with the need to dock and pre-bake the skins, does offer a certain measure of appeal. If using the dough warming method makes this approach more efficient, so much the better. As I previously noted, I have been perfectly happy with the pre-bake approach, because I think it gives me better control in my particular oven configuration. However, I am receptive to trying out the lamination approach that John advocates. I’d also like to develop a good pizza stone baked cracker-style pizza, as John has been making, to go along with my use of the cutter pan.

As for your question about the scraps of dough and the water retained by them, it is quite possible that the results I got with the last pizza were attributable to the moisture retained by the scraps. Member November once told me that to get a good crispy and crackery crust, it was a good idea to get moisture between the laminations. In my case, in lieu of using the fold and re-roll approach to get the laminations, I had superimposed two separate skins and sealed them together at the edges before continuing the rolling process. To avoid having the lamination get too moist and pose handling problems, November suggested that I coat the bottom layer with a bit of oil before spraying on the water. Perhaps the same overall effect was achieved rolling out the scraps with the water from the spray bottle.

If you go back and look at the photo I posted for the skin after the rolling step, you will see that it is splotchy in areas. The splotches were due to dough scraps that apparently had not adhered quite as well to the neighboring dough scraps and were a bit drier because of the heat of the proofing box. As a side note, when I later removed the skin from the refrigerator, I saw that it was a bit moister than the previous skins I had made. That suggested that I could have cut back on the water from the spray bottle a bit. But, who knows? Maybe the extra water helped with the crispiness in that case.

The other experiment I had been meaning to try is to use the dough warming method at the end of a long (e.g.., 24-hour) room temperature fermentation rather than at the beginning. However, since Jon has effectively conducted that experiment and shown that the dough warming method works well at the end also, there is no need for me to conduct that experiment. However, the preparation of the skins in advance and putting them into the refrigerator, as John Fazzari and I have been doing, has a lot of merit also. With low-hydration doughs such as we have been working with, I think it is possible to hold the skins in the refrigerator for several days before using. One can conveniently prepare several skins in advance and stockpile them in the refrigerator until ready for use.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2007, 08:09:29 PM »
Hi Dan,
You're probably right on the technique differnece. I probably mixed a little longer with my KA mixer and incorporated the stuff more. Also the dough ball pic was after a 1 hour dip in 105-110 degree water that relaxed it more. If I never made a dough other than the last few I would be very happy, turned out great. But as all of us that like to cook do though...I will mess with it some and try the beer thing to replace the water to see the difference between the two. It's all about foolin with the food and the kitchen, great fun....and eats
Jon
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Offline rayguy

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2007, 09:01:50 PM »
Peter,

In your final cracker dough receipe -  instead of grams, oz. or lbs, what are the measurements in cups for flour and water.

Thanks,

rayguy

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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2007, 10:18:46 PM »
Just measured it out. Using a scoop and drop back into the 'main' container a few times to loosen the flour and then taking a scoop of the loosened flour and shaking it level and putting on a container on the gram scale it's pretty close to 1 3/4 cups flour, water is a scant less than 1/2 cup. If you want I'll measure out the rest. Flour 278 and water 100 grams rounded out.
Jon
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Re: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2007, 10:35:30 PM »
Hey Ray,
I measured out the rest. Salt and sugar are both a heaping 1/2 tsp and oit was a scant less than 1 tbsp and yeast wasjust a scat less than 1 tsp. You won't regret getting a gram scale for better accuracy, comes in handy for lots of recipes that require pin point measures. Hope this helps.
Jon
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