Author Topic: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style (Read 66452 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #80 on:** November 19, 2007, 11:48:41 PM »

Quote from: rayguy on November 19, 2007, 09:01:50 PM

Peter,

In your final cracker dough receipe - instead of grams, oz. or lbs, what are the measurements in cups for flour and water.

rayguy,

I believe that Jon gave you the conversions for the last recipe he used, not my last recipe. Either way, what I use to do weight to volume conversions for flour and water is a tool developed by forum member November, at http://tools.foodsim.com/. The tool I am referring to is the tool on the lefthand side.

Based on that tool, the 278.15 g. of flour that Jon used converts to 2 1/4 c. plus about 1 3/4 t. The 100.13 g. of water converts to 1/4 cup plus 2 T. plus about 2 1/3 t.

For my last recipe, the 183.62 g. of flour converts to 1 1/2 c. plus approximately 3/4 t. The 2.33 g. of water converts to 1/4 c. plus about 1 1/2 t.

To measure out the flour by volume, you should follow a specific method. It is the method on which November's tool is constructed. Specifically, you should start by stirring the flour in the flour bag to loosen the flour. You should then lift the flour from the bag into your measuring cup using a tablespoon or a scoop. You should fill the cup to slightly overflowing. Then level the top of the measuring cup with a flat edge, such as the flat back edge of a kitchen knife. You shouldn't shake or tamp the measuring cup. Measuring spoons should also be level measurements. For the water, you should view the water level at eye level.

As a fun exercise, you might want to try Jon's method for the flour and water conversions to see how close the two sets of measurements compare. I can think of about a half dozen ways of measuring flour by volume, and each will convert to a different weight when the flour is weighed on a scale.

Peter

Jackitup · « **Reply #81 on:** November 20, 2007, 10:34:57 AM »

Pete you're so right on volume measures having a wide range. For reproducible results in baking and spice blending for specific recipes in breads, pastries and sausage making a gram scale is the way to go, people are suprized how much they use them, make a great Xmas present to ones kitchen.
Jon

Pete-zza · « **Reply #82 on:** November 20, 2007, 09:20:51 PM »

When I was researching the DKM dough recipe and its implementation, much was said about the need to have good (precise) flour and water measurements. To do this, one ideally should use a scale. I know from experience having made literally hundreds of weight measurements of flour using different sizes of measuring cups (the test results were used by November in designing the tool), that the variations of volume measurements can in some cases throw off the hydration of dough by a considerable amount. Readers will see what I mean from this post on the subject: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4445.msg39307.html#msg39307 (Reply 54).

I'm hoping that the dough warming method makes it less critical that the flour and water measurements be very precise, and that one will be able to get very good results using volume measurements. Of course, we won't know for sure until someone tries the recipe using volume measurements. So, I hope someone will give it a whirl. If the recipe is altered to allow for a different pizza size, I would advocate using November's tool and the measurement method I previously described. It's the only tool of its kind that I am aware of.

Peter

DNA Dan · « **Reply #83 on:** November 21, 2007, 01:12:20 PM »

Quote from: Jackitup on November 19, 2007, 08:09:29 PM

I will mess with it some and try the beer thing to replace the water to see the difference between the two.

Jon,

I would suggest using beer on the step where Peter used a spray bottle to wet the shredded dough. I have tried just using beer instead of water in the dough itself and I could not really taste it that much. In theory, I don't think the yeast will be as active in alcohol as it would be in water since alcohol is one of the waste products of fermentation. I also don't know how that influences the gluten structure development. I did not record how well those doughs rose that I made with beer, since I was more concerned about the flavor profile at the time. However, I think if you sprayed the scraps then loosely let it sit, you may get a much better flavor profile out of the dough because it won't interfere so much with the complexity of the dough itself.

BTW, I used regular Heineken, a lager beer. Some "cracker" styles that I have had tasted like they had a very high "malt" or "Hops" flavor. This is impart from the usage of Malted flour, but you might also consider a heavy malt beer for this as well. If you use anything with the words "light" on it, I doubt you will even taste the difference. Post results after you are finished eating all your turkey!

Jackitup · « **Reply #84 on:** November 21, 2007, 01:30:53 PM »

Well....I couldn't wait and made a sauerkraut/sausage pie last nite from a beer crust I made the nite before. Also had some onions and oyster mushrooms on it. You are right, the crust/dough was not as active as other ones I've made and was a bit thinner, although I still liked it alot. Next time maybe I'll do just that and use a good dark beer (lite was all I had on hand) and cook it down a bit to get just the heavier 'beer' flavor and get rid of the alcohol as I think it 'did' inhibit the yeast. I forgot to brush the top of the crust with oil/ghee to water proof after par-baking, so this to may have lent to the thinner finished crust making it compress a bit from the moisture from the sauce. Just bought some Winterfest, dark Dopple Bock Lager yesterday at Trader Joe's to try, if I can keep a bottle undrank or is that undrunk or toodrunk?? Always tinkering....
Jon

DNA Dan · « **Reply #85 on:** November 21, 2007, 01:45:09 PM »

I have been researching this a bit this morning and my next attempt is going to be a premium ale like sierra nevada pale ale, a wheat malt beer, or some cheapo brand like old milwaulkee, burgie, etc. I know a pizza place locally that has a very strong beer flavored crust, and since they do it in a commercial setting, I don't think they use anything expensive since that would impact their bottom line. Also, they have been around a long time 25+ years so they probably aren't using one of the more common yuppie type beers by today's standards. I am thinking Olympia, Old Milwaulkee, Budweiser, Miller, Coors, or something along those lines. Since the regular versions are pretty light to begin with, I think your suggestion of cooking them down is great! Another trick my grandpa used to use is to stick it in the freezer and pull it out once the water has froze then skim out the cubes! Water has a lower freezing point than alcohol does.

fazzari · « **Reply #86 on:** November 21, 2007, 03:35:47 PM »

Peter
You mentioned in one of your posts about producing a stack of skins and using them later. I can tell you that I just baked a skin that I made on Sunday..so it was in the refrigerator 3 days....the skin cooked up almost exactly as the last one...it had more flavor too. I can also tell you that these skins freeze beautifully...just take them out one day before you use them. The recipe I've been using is very similar to what you're using...100% high gluten flour, 36% water, .75% yeast, 5% oil...I don't think this dough needs sugar if your cooking right on the stone.
As for prebaking skins.....there is something magical about cooking a pizza and having the bottom get done at the very same time as the top..to me this is nirvana!!! This is simply my opinion, but I want my crust to be a critical part of the whole pie..not something that just holds the toppings!!

Here is my prediction,...after all is said and done, the mixing of this dough is the least critical part of the process...whether you use your hands or a mixer or processor, as long as it is undermixed the dough will work....and I would bet that if you choose to develop the dough longer than recommended you could still come up with a fabulous crust.

Happy baking
John

Jackitup · « **Reply #87 on:** November 25, 2007, 06:35:30 PM »

Peter,
A new twist on your proofing oven. Not to dis yours because it is a great idea and WAY cheaper than buying one, not to mention the control knob on it...love that. As you know I've been putting my plastic, covered, container of dough in about 110-115 degree water bath for an hour and replace the water if necessary if cools too much. This time I have it in the nuclear wave with a large 2 quart measuring cup of boiling water. 2 temp probes lying on top of the dough holding a steady temp of 94-96. Dough has plastic wrap lying on top in conact with the dough so the heat and moisture can circulate better. I've had it in there for 2 hours and just now starting to drop a bit. I'll be making the pie here in a couple hours and will post pics. The one thing I changed with the dough was to omit the oil to compare the difference.
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving at your Tea House thingy, looked like a nice place.
Jon

Pete-zza · « **Reply #88 on:** November 25, 2007, 09:38:07 PM »

Quote from: fazzari on November 21, 2007, 03:35:47 PM

Here is my prediction,...after all is said and done, the mixing of this dough is the least critical part of the process...whether you use your hands or a mixer or processor, as long as it is undermixed the dough will work....and I would bet that if you choose to develop the dough longer than recommended you could still come up with a fabulous crust.

John,

I have been trying lately not to develop the gluten structure in the low-hydration doughs. In a sense, I think that that leads to an undermixed dough. However, I think that the dough should still hold together. This has not been a problem with any of the doughs I have made--whether using a food processor, stand mixer, or by hand. In my case, however, I was trying to avoid ending up with doughs that are too elastic and difficult to roll out as a result. This is a problem that Randy referred to in one or more posts and was in the back of my mind when I was preparing the various doughs.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #89 on:** November 25, 2007, 09:42:20 PM »

Jon,

As I have noted before, the idea for the proofing box came from Ed Wood in his book Classic Sourdoughs. I just used the closest parts I could find at Home Depot and Lowes.

Peter

BTB · « **Reply #90 on:** November 26, 2007, 04:45:42 PM »

After receiving my new 14” dark, anodized nonperforated cutter pan, docker and pan gripper from pizzatools.com (see 1st photo below), as well as a new Kitchen Aid food processor, I decided to try another cracker crust pizza. Using the expanded dough calculation tool, the following is the recipe I used for the crust:

Flour (100%):    211.48 g | 7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs
Water (37%):    78.25 g | 2.76 oz | 0.17 lbs
ADY (1%):    2.11 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    3.7 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%):    7.4 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.63 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Sugar (1.2%):    2.54 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (144.45%):   305.49 g | 10.78 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = 0.07

Using sifted Harvest King flour (which seemed to have changed their packaging recently), the use of the food processor made combining the ingredients a breeze. I proofed the yeast for 10 minutes in 90 degree water and added it to the flour in the food processor, pulsed till it came together, then added the rest of the ingredients and pulsed for 30 or 40 seconds more. I dumped the cornmeal-like dough contents onto the counter and very easily pressed the ingredients together into a ball. I put the dough ball into a ziplock bag, pressed all the air out that I could and tightly sealed it and let it rise a little on the counter for about 3 hours, and thereafter put it into the refrigerator for approx. 24 hours. Afterwards I put the doughball into a covered bakeware-like bowl and put it into the slightly warmed oven for a couple of hours to warm up and soften the dough. I have learned to work my digital readout on my GE Profile oven to read that the temperature in the oven was around 117 degrees F, which I think is all right for proofing the dough.

Afterwards, I had little to no difficulty in rolling out the dough (see 2nd photo below), which was unlike my prior experiences reported earlier. Undoubtedly the warmed dough made the rolling much, much easier than before, and maybe the use of the food processor helped somewhat with that, too, but I'm not certain. I rolled the dough to about 15 inches (with a thickness est. to be around .055 to .06), cut it back to about a 14" diameter size, docked it on both sides (using my new docker implement . . . nifty tool), and then put it into the new 14" cutter pan, which I had pre-oiled to -- like Pete says -- get a better bottom crust color (see 3rd photo below).

BTB · « **Reply #91 on:** November 26, 2007, 04:48:43 PM »

The docked skin in the cutter pan was pre-baked in a 475-degree F preheated oven, on the lowest oven rack position, for almost 5 minutes. I think it's wise not to pre-bake it any longer than that. I then proceeded to dress the pizza, putting the sauce on first. I usually put 6 in 1 on with a lot of additional things, but this time I used up a can of Cento pizza sauce that I thought I better use before it gets too old. After doctoring it up with a lot of spices (Penzy), minced garlic, onion powder, et al, I spread it onto the skin and thereafter added the rest of the toppings and cheese (sorry no Grande here, just some Sargento that I had in the refrigerator). Although it was the first time I had used it, the sauce turned out to be surprisingly good.

BTB · « **Reply #92 on:** November 26, 2007, 04:51:47 PM »

The dressed pizza was baked on the lowest oven rack position at 475 degrees F, for around 8 minutes. I then move the pizza (still in the cutter pan) to the top oven rack position for another 2 or 3 minutes, for additional top baking and more top crust browning. The final photos below show the pizza cooking in the oven and then the finished pizza.

This pizza was excellent and was the best cracker crust version that I've made to date. Crackery and crispy throughout and easily firm enough to hold up all the ingredients on the pizza. I think the cutter pan is the way to go with this as it really helps in getting this crust done right. Warming the dough prior to rolling it out is essential (for the home baker at least) in order to avoid the frustration of the incredibly "hard roll" that this low hydration dough otherwise requires. This is all still a work in progress, but the improvement is getting noticeably better day by day (or is it pizza by pizza?).

Pete-zza · « **Reply #93 on:** November 26, 2007, 05:47:23 PM »

BTB,

Very nice job. Congratulations.

I appreciate your giving the recipe another try, if for no other reason than to demonstrate how easy it is to make the cracker-style pizza. I hope you found that to be the case. You used the food processor, which is still the easiest way to make the dough in my opinion, but one can achieve comparable results using a stand mixer or even hand kneading. The common denominator that makes a difference is the dough warming step. I think, but have not yet proven, that the dough warming method makes up for a lot more sins than we realize. That is one of the reasons I hope someone tries the recipe using volume measurements for the flour and water rather than weights. It might also be worthwhile to skip the step of sifting the flour and the step of letting the dough rest (e.g., autolyse) to see if that simplifies the overall process without sacrificing the finished characteristics of the crust itself. Using a fork instead of a dough docker would be another step toward simplifying the overall process. The dough docker has the advantage of not damaging pans and the like (the docker has blunt pins) but an ordinary kitchen fork will also work. I would just use it to dock the skin before putting it into the cutter pan. I do this even with the dough docker.

Like you, I discovered that I didn't have a convenient 15" template to use. Sometime when I am ordering other pizza items, I plan to get a 15" pizza screen to use as a template. An alternative approach to use in the meantime is to just roll the dough out to a larger size so that it just overlaps the "cutting" edge of the 14" cutter pan and then roll the rolling pin over the top of the cutter pan to get an almost perfectly shaped dough skin. There will be some shrinkage during the pre-bake step, but the skin will still retain its nice shape.

All of your new equipment will serve you well for many years. I hope you will keep us apprised as to your continuing progress with the cracker-style, as well as any helpful tips you come up with along the way.

Peter

DNA Dan · « **Reply #94 on:** November 27, 2007, 06:06:50 PM »

Peter and others,

Thanks for the recipe. I too made one of these and it turned out virtually identical to what you describe in this thread. So it is reproducible in other hands using totally different setups. I did do one experiment with this over the long weekend. I made the recipe as is for my positive control, then on my second dough ball I used 2 times the amount of Crisco instead of the oil (7%). When I made the dough I used a pastry blender to cut the Crisco into the flour. Both balls formed in almost identical fashion, that is to say they were very small pea-sized balls of dough which I compressed by hand to make the final dough ball. This was the only divergerence from the original recipe in terms of technique as Peter described.

The regular recipe as put fourth produced a very crispy crust which I would liken to a saltine cracker. The crust with the crisco was less crispy and the bite was more tender. It was almost like a frozen pizza crust, tender, yet crispy. Overall I was really pleased with the results and ease of making this recipe. Alas though it isn't quite the style I am trying to make; I have concluded that what I am after is a thicker "laminated" type crust. In terms of thickness I am talking 1/4" or 3/8" after being cooked. I still think there is potential here to use 2-3 thin sheets of this dough and stack them to make the lamination. I too was impressed with how easy this dough rolled out when warm. You guys are awesome for figuring this out!

Jackitup · « **Reply #95 on:** November 27, 2007, 07:12:30 PM »

Here's my pizza pics from the other night. This one I tried without using oil. Although the difference were minor, I found this one a little less crispy, still had a good crunch just not as much, also didn't bubble quite as much with the par-bake. This may also be attributed to increasing the total recipe by 20% to get a little thicker crust for a 16" pie. Also this is the one where I used the hot water/nuclear wave as a warming/proofing box, I do not count that as a cause but I am convinced, as said above, it's a must for easy rolling. After warming it took me about 3-4 minutes to roll out, and I wasn't working hard at all. This one was topped with onions, gr peppers, portabella mush, leftover grilled ribeye, and pepperoni, and a little fresh smoked sausage from over the weekend my brother and I made. Sauce was Pastorelli's pizza sauce mixed with some drained diced tomatoes. A little cheddar was put on last along with mozzerella of course. Everyone loved it.
Jon

Pete-zza · « **Reply #96 on:** November 27, 2007, 08:17:16 PM »

Dan and Jon,

I really think you need to have fat in the dough to achieve the desired results. If the fat is in the form of butter, margarine or shortening, it will provide tenderness in the finished crust. The flakiness comes from incorporating the fat (whether solid or liquid) into the dough such that the dough has a coarse consistency rather than a fine consistency. This appears to be consistent with what John Fazzari has been saying about underkneading the dough. The total fat content can’t be too high, since too much fat, say, above 7-8%, may result in a crust that starts to take on the texture of a deep-dish crust (typical fat levels in deep-dish crusts run from about 8% to around 25%).

I was once informed by an inactive member who once worked for a major Chicago-area pizzeria that specialized in the cracker style pizza that the dough contained no oil. But when I pressed him on this point he said that a small amount of oil (in relation to the amount of flour) was dribbled down the sides of the mixer bowl during preparation of the dough. As John Fazzari does, and as I have been doing (but using a rolling pin), the dough was sheeted, cut into skins, and refrigerated until ready to use the next day when they would be docked, dressed and baked, much as John does.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #97 on:** November 27, 2007, 08:43:37 PM »

Before leaving town for the Thanksgiving holiday, I ran an experiment using three small dough balls that were left over from the preceding three pizza skins. I had simply gathered the scraps that remained when I cut the skins out to size and formed them into balls which then went into the refrigerator in the same container. I estimate that the oldest dough ball was over a week old, and that the other two dough balls were a few days old to about a week. As soon as I opened the container, I was immediately greeted with a good whiff of fermentation odors. I wasn’t sure whether this would be a good omen or a bad omen but I decided nonetheless to combine the mini dough balls into a single dough ball and to make a pizza out of that single dough ball. To facilitate the rolling process, I put the dough ball into my proofing box for about two hours. That helped the rolling process but it was not quite as simple as the original dough balls. But, once rolled out, the process was the same as previously described.

The finished pizza looked like the other pizzas I made in the course of this thread (hence, no photos), but the crust had a distinctive and powerful taste—too powerful, in fact. It is not one that I would want to intentionally reproduce. However, the experiment told me that it is perhaps not the best idea to keep the skins (or dough balls) in the refrigerator for too long. If I had to guess at this point, I would say around 3 days, or possibly four. To get more flavor in the crust, I think I would increase the amount of yeast and reduce the fermentation time proportionately.

Peter

Mahoney · « **Reply #98 on:** November 27, 2007, 10:25:32 PM »

Jon,

You are onto a style I am definitely interested in. Pizzas look great - thanks for sharing!

scott r · « **Reply #99 on:** November 28, 2007, 03:38:34 AM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on November 27, 2007, 08:43:37 PM

As soon as I opened the container, I was immediately greeted with a good whiff of fermentation odors.

The finished pizza looked like the other pizzas I made in the course of this thread (hence, no photos), but the crust had a distinctive and powerful taste—too powerful, in fact. It is not one that I would want to intentionally reproduce.

Peter

Peter, this is the fermentation flavor I have been mentioning to you that has me perplexed. If I am not mistaken your extra long fermented dough tasted different than a wetter dough would have, right? Stronger and more like Beer. If you had used your dough a bit earlier I bet it would have taken on a plesent smell and taste of beer that I love, but can only achieve with low hydration doughs. Do you have any idea why the lower fermentation doughs taste different when taken to extreems?

november?