Author Topic: Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style (Read 66427 times)

MWTC · « **Reply #140 on:** February 07, 2008, 09:28:23 PM »

Should We start referring to you as Cracker Master?

Or would the "Politically Correct" Police see it as an insensitivity?

MWTC

Pete-zza · « **Reply #141 on:** February 07, 2008, 09:37:53 PM »

Quote from: MWTC on February 07, 2008, 09:28:23 PM

Should We start referring to you as Cracker Master?

Or would the "Politically Correct" Police see it as an insensitivity?

MWTC

MWTC,

I once tried to use the term "cracker", as in "Polly wants a cracker", as part of a security measure in checking into a particular website and was told that the term was offensive and wouldn't be allowed. It didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now. As far as being a "master" of the cracker style, that is my objective, but I am not there yet although I feel more comfortable with each new pizza I make. I have learned that sometimes the only way to learn something is to just do it...and do it...and do it.

Peter

Jimmy V · « **Reply #142 on:** February 08, 2008, 10:38:46 AM »

Peter, Im glad you tried the recipe. I did use the "C" hook on my kithenAid and yes, it was 3 1/2 cups all pourpose flour. I baked the pizza on the 2nd. shelf from the bottom. I only docked one side . I should try doing both sides. Another thing I might try is letting the dough proof in the refridgerator rather than at room temp. I did discover one thing, I can par-bake the crust 3-4 minutes, let it cool and put the toppings on it and freeze it, then bake it on a pizza pan with the holes in it and it actually comes out great. Your dough looked slightly drier than mine before you formed the ball, but as I mentioned these arent exact weights and measures. Im glad you had good results tho. And I think there is definately room for "science" in these recipes to further refine the results.I'm open to any suggestions too. Happy baking !

Pete-zza · « **Reply #143 on:** February 08, 2008, 11:24:47 AM »

Jimmy,

I will modify your original post to correct the amount of flour so it isn't left hanging. If you would also like me to amend your post to clarify the other aspects, let me know and I will be happy to do so. That way, all of the information will be in one place. Otherwise, I will let your last post serve as further clarification of your recipe and its method of preparation.

Can you confirm whether you used the dough to make one or two pizzas, and also the size(s) of the pizza(s)? When I have been making the recent versions of DKM's recipe, I have scaled down the numbers to keep the scrap at a minimum. As a result, the dough weight numbers I retain in my head (and on paper) are lower than what the recipe states.

Out of curiosity, how do you measure out the flour for your pizzas? I might be able to replicate your method and be able to come up with a baker's percent version of your recipe for those who may want to make more or less dough. As far as the dryness of the dough that I made, it would be simple enough to just spray the dough scraps with water from a spray bottle. It should only take about 5-10 sprays for the weight of dough I made. I chose not to do this for my maiden effort with your recipe since I was trying to be true to your recipe. However, if the dough is too dry in a future effort, I will just spray it with a bit of water.

I like your idea of par-baking the crusts and then dressing and freezing. In cases like this, Tom Lehmann often recommends brushing the par-baked crust with oil to form a barrier so that the moisture in the toppings doesn't unduly penetrate the crust as the pizza cools down in the freezer and also during final baking.

Peter

corduroy9 · « **Reply #144 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:22:30 AM »

I wanted to add a couple tips that have occurred to me, when making Devon's Thin recipe from the front recipe page of this web site.

I use King Arthur All Purpose and Fleischman's IDY.

I usually use a bit more water, as my dough just doesn't form a ball. After all the called for ingredients are added, I add a little bit of water at a time while the mixer is going, probably another 1/8 cup total, until all the loose dough gets absorbed.

The recipe produces enough dough to make 2 large pies. I cook them in large rectangular cookie sheets.

After the inital 8 hour rise, I punch the dough down and cut it in half, put each ball into a zip-lock bag in the fridge. I've held it up to 8 days and it is still good. I try to remember to remove the dough from the fridge at least an hour before rolling, or else it's hard to roll.

I roll the dough by hand, using a rolling pin, until it is just larger than the pans I use. I have to sprinkle flour on the dough, spread the flour around, roll the dough, flip it, and repeat many times.

The excess dough I either cut off or fold onto itself, to make a thicker outside crust.

I spray the sheets with a non stick cooking spray, instead of using oil.

I always preheat a stone in the oven for 30+ mins at 500 degrees. (When I have not, the crust isn't always crisp, sometimes soggy).

I par bake the crust for 6 mins, then top it and cook until the cheese starts to brown.

I go light on the sauce, just enough to cover. For cheese, I try all kinds of different combos. Mozzarella, Italian blends, recently a little mild cheddar over the mozz, which adds a nice new flavor to it.

It comes out pretty nice. Thanks so much for this site, what a great resource for pizza lovers.

Randy · « **Reply #145 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:32:10 AM »

The recipe you used was so much different from DKM's you should really start another thread. Give it name if you like and with pictures people will give your recipe a try. It is always interesting to see other pizza ideas.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #146 on:** August 14, 2008, 05:57:48 PM »

One of our new members, snowdog (Glenn), recently asked at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6938.msg59601.html#msg59601 whether a bread machine was a suitable appliance to use to make dough for a thin and crispy/cracker-style crust. That caught me off guard because while I had made DKM's and my versions of DKM cracker-style dough recipe using a food processor, a stand mixer, and even by hand, I had never given any thought about the possibility of using a bread machine. Forced by snowdog's question to think about it, I had initial serious reservations about whether a bread machine would do a good enough job making a workable low-hydration cracker-style dough, but the fact that dough in a bread machine can get to over 90 degrees F during the kneading steps held appeal to me because I had found that a warm dough rolls out much easier than a room temperature (or cooler) dough.

With the above in mind, I used my standard version of DKM's thin and crispy/cracker-style dough recipe (at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138) with the basic dough setting of my Zojirushi bread machine. Rather than modifying the sequence of operation of the Zo, or modifying the recipe to be better adapted to the Zo, I let the Zo run through its normal sequence of preheating, kneading, first rise, stir down, and second rise. I added the ingredients to the bread pan in the sequence recommended by the manufacturer of the Zo.

I concluded that the Zo was not effective at making a low-hydration dough. As an example of its deficiency in making such a dough, a part of the dough ingredients stuck to the sides of the bread pan during the kneading step and were not incorporated into the kneaded dough. This necessitated that I intervene in the process and scrape the dough ingredients back into the path of the two kneading blades. The kneading of the dough ingredients was also uneven with some portions underkneaded and others in the form of clumps that appeared to have a fairly well-developed gluten structure, which is something that I tried to avoid in most of my previous kneading methods. The kneading time was also quite a bit longer than the earlier methods I used, even the hand kneaded version and, certainly, the food processor method which, in my prior efforts, was less than a minute.

I thought that the fact that the dough ingredients reached over 90 degrees F when I removed it from the bread pan (after the second rise) and formed it into a ball to roll out would make it easier to roll out using a standard rolling pin and make it unnecessary to use my proofing box or ThermoKool unit to warm up the dough sufficiently to roll out easily. I tried both my heavy marble rolling pin and my French tapered wood rolling pin and neither was effective in rolling out the dough. The dough was quite dry (because of the long heating of the dough ingredients during the rise steps) and had a developed gluten structure and density that rendered rolling out the dough impractical. Too much labor would be needed to roll it out. I gave up after about ten minutes of trying and ended up throwing the dough away.

It occurred to me after my experiment that it might be possible to increase the hydration of the dough formulation I used to compensate for the loss of moisture in the dough during the rise steps. However, even if that worked and I could correctly establish the required increase in the initial hydration, it would take about an hour or more to complete the task. That would not be practical given that it takes far less time with all of the prior machines I had used, even the hand kneading method. I also thought that it might be possible to remove the dough before the first rise step, but that would itself consume over 25 minutes, and be excessive. Also, the dough would be unheated (beyond the effects of the preheating step) and not as convenient to roll out as it would if it were warm. I would have to use my proofing box or ThermoKool unit, without any apparent advantage over the prior methods in this regard.

The bottom line is that as good as a bread machine may be in making many types of dough, it does not appear to be suitable or practical for making a low hydration low, especially one at 36% hydration. I still believe that a food processor is the best machine to make a low-hydration dough. Then, in my view, it would be a toss-up between a stand mixer and making the dough by hand.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #147 on:** August 21, 2008, 08:05:26 PM »

Last year, member fazzari (John) posted a dough formulation for a cracker-style pizza at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5642.msg47873.html#msg47873. What caught my attention at the time is that John's dough formulation bore several similarities to the DKM dough formulation, but with no sugar. I recently decided to make a pizza based on John's dough formulation. In my case, I used a food processor rather than a stand mixer as used by John. For good order sake, I decided to post the results I achieved at the same thread where John first posted his dough formulation. My results are described and shown at Replies 13 and 14, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5642.msg61130.html#msg61130.

The photo below is representative of the results I achieved. Sort of like a trailer or a coming attraction.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #148 on:** January 06, 2009, 12:07:40 PM »

Earlier in this thread, at Reply 106 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50766/topicseen.html#msg50766, I described efforts I undertook to make a Lehmann cracker-style pizza in which I used heat to warm up the dough to make it easier to roll out the dough. The formulation for the Lehmann cracker style dough is given on our forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_crackerstyle.php. The same formulation also appears at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/. When I made the dough, I used a thickness factor of 0.09. I guessed at that value since the Lehmann instructions do not specify a thickness factor or a dough ball weight in relation to a particular pizza size from which to calculate the thickness factor.

Recently, at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=42153#42153, a poster asked for typical dough ball weights to make specific size pizzas. In reply, Tom Lehmann came up with a thickness value of 0.12389. To preserve that post, I have copied and pasted it as follows:

For the cracker crust use a 14-ounce scaling weight for the 12-inch dough skins. This will give you with a minimum of scrap dough after the dough skin has been trimmed. Remember your Pi X r squared to calculate the other sizes. For example: 3.14 X 6 squared is 3.14 X 36 = 113 square inches in a 12-inch circle/pizza skin. So 14 divided by 113 = 0.12389-ounces per square inch of surface area. Now, al lyou have to do is to multiply the surface area of any size pizza by 0.12389 to get the dough ball weight (in ounces) for that size pizza. Remember you will need to sheet the dough to a thickness of roughly 1/16 of an inch, no to exceed 1/8-inch in thickness. After sheeting the dough, I like to dock it and place it on a disk or pizza circle and trim it to size using a pizza wheel, then transfer it to a baking disk or prep peel for dressing.
The baking time will be on the long side, but the character of the crust is well worth the extra wait.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

The thickness factor value suggested by Tom is considerably greater than what I calculated for DKM's recipe and that I myself used for my versions of DKM's recipe, even if adjusted to compensate for some scrap dough remaining after a skin is cut out of a larger sheet of dough. However, I thought that it might be helpful for people to know what Tom recommends for his own cracker-style dough recipe.

Peter

JConk007 · « **Reply #149 on:** January 06, 2009, 01:06:30 PM »

WOW,
Thanks thats double the .06 I used and mentioned elswhere on the forum
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #150 on:** January 06, 2009, 01:58:50 PM »

John,

What I find interesting and amusing is that everyone says to roll the dough out to 1/16" thickness, yet they end up with different thickness factors. I tend to doubt that anyone actually uses an instrument of any kind to actually measure the thickness of the skins. Also, in a home setting using a rolling pin, there is bound to be some variation in thickness across the entire skin.

Peter

JConk007 · « **Reply #151 on:** January 06, 2009, 04:12:43 PM »

Yes Peter, these thickness posts are baffling me as well

Is says 16" pan it says roll 1/16" and at least 1-2" beyond pan, thread shows in many pictures just how thin it should look, but alas a .12 cracker crust?
Key here is we all keep experimenting, trying new things and sharing like you do , thats the priceless stuff.
I did not heat the dough but gave it at least 3hr room temp 67 degree before rolling after 20 hrs of refridgeration. As mentioned many times dough rolled right out, don't worry about the shape! just keep working it slowly outward, and don't worry about getting off the work surface because it is so thin, if you follow the recipe it should come right up (using the roller for a little help) to place in pan.
John

PS I am sure Red November may have a digital pizza caliper or other measuring device he could share with us.

come to think of it I have one (not digital) in my woodshop, I never thought to use it?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #152 on:** January 07, 2009, 09:53:12 AM »

John,

There was further clarification by Tom Lehmann on the Lehmann cracker style skin thickness in a recent PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=42310#42310, as follows:

Most operators today use one (1) dough ball to make one pizza skin without any scrap. When making something like a Chicago style thin, cracker crust, the dough must be processed through a sheeter/roller and trimmed to size, resulting in some scrap dough generation, typically to the tune of about 2-ounces for each dough skin produced.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

On the above basis, allowing for 2 ounces of scrap, a 12-ounce weight for a 12" skin would translate into a thickness factor of 12/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.1056075. That is still high in relation to the DKM recipe (as best I can tell) and the values I have used, but it is about the value that member fazzari (John Fazzari) uses for his cracker-style skins in his pizza restaurant and many of the skins that he has made and reported on here on the forum.

Peter

IRHusker · « **Reply #153 on:** April 08, 2009, 07:56:31 PM »

Thanks Pete as always - you da man! I've tried so many of your recipes and books, never to be disappoointed!

IRHusker · « **Reply #154 on:** April 08, 2009, 08:00:22 PM »

I forgot to ask you Pete, do you use a screen/rack like the your 'za is on in the picture to cook it on?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #155 on:** April 08, 2009, 08:09:12 PM »

Quote from: IRHusker on April 08, 2009, 08:00:22 PM

I forgot to ask you Pete, do you use a screen/rack like the your 'za is on in the picture to cook it on?

No, that rack is only for cooling purposes and to keep the bottom of the crust from getting soggy. I usually use a cutter pan to bake the cracker-style pizzas, or else I bake directly on a pizza stone.

Peter

IRHusker · « **Reply #156 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:13:45 PM »

Thanks! I don't have a screen or rack to cool, I'll have to invest in both as they are not very expensive.

Do you think the Caputo flour works well for this crust? Based on your many recommendations I use it often! I have a white sauce/seafood pizza I love to especially use it with. Very thin with great flavor. I've found the flour on both http://www.fornobravo.com/ and http://www.americasfavoritefood.com.

I'm more of a thin crust guy but would like to get better at the Chicago style. Better do more reading there.

Thanks again!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #157 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:44:39 PM »

Quote from: IRHusker on April 08, 2009, 09:13:45 PM

Do you think the Caputo flour works well for this crust?

I have never tried a Caputo 00 flour for a cracker-style pizza. I believe that it can be made to work for that style pizza but the crust color will perhaps be very light. The weakest flour that I used for the cracker style was a basic all-purpose flour, and I thought that the crust color even for that flour was lighter than I personally preferred. If you decide to give the Caputo flour a try for the cracker style, I hope you will report back on your results.

Peter

IRHusker · « **Reply #158 on:** April 08, 2009, 10:15:29 PM »

Pete what flour would you better suggest for the cracker style? Funny, I have never heard of "cracker style" and to be honest using your thin crust recipe to me was cracker crust. Now seeing your pics I see the difference. Thin and together(for lack of better term) versus cracker makes sense. What is it about the recipe that you show for cracker vs think(caputo) that gives it color? Is it the veggie oil vs olive oil?

Very much planning on making this new style(for me) pizza!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #159 on:** April 08, 2009, 11:54:46 PM »

Quote from: IRHusker on April 08, 2009, 10:15:29 PM

Pete what flour would you better suggest for the cracker style? Funny, I have never heard of "cracker style" and to be honest using your thin crust recipe to me was cracker crust. Now seeing your pics I see the difference. Thin and together(for lack of better term) versus cracker makes sense. What is it about the recipe that you show for cracker vs think(caputo) that gives it color? Is it the veggie oil vs olive oil?

When I started this thread, I used DKM's dough recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php that was described as "Thin, Crisp & Crackery Pizza". I later discovered that there are several species of cracker-style pizzas. Some have fairly thick crusts that are quite tender and break like a soda cracker whereas others are very thin and very crispy, almost like a potato chip but thicker. There are also versions between those two. I eventually ended up making more of the thin and crispy cracker-style pizzas.

I found that I liked the Harvest King bread flour. At the retail level, that flour has since been replaced by General Mills with the Better for Bread flour. Other members have expressed a preference for high-gluten flour. I did not try that flour myself because I did not have any on hand when I did all of my experiments. DKM says that you can use all-purpose, bread or high-gluten flour with his recipe.

I believe it is the higher protein content of the bread flour and high-gluten flour that is most responsible for the greater degree of crust coloration. I believe you can get more crust color by using a dark form of malt in lieu of table sugar, like barley malt syrup (nondiastatic), but I have not tried that with a cracker-style dough. I don't think that there is enough oil in the dough formulation to be a major contributor to crust coloration even though oil has good heat transfer characteristics.

Peter