Author Topic: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)  (Read 5520 times)

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Offline mgsimms

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WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« on: November 13, 2007, 11:35:49 AM »
Hi Guys
I'm canadian and have struggled for years with pizza dough recipes for my Friday nite pizza.

I don't have access to King Arthur flours. Does anyone have a good NY style pizza dough recipe for 15" pizza screens? I don't have a scale to weight ingredients though.

To get a nice bubbly crust, can I get away with AP flour? Or do I need a higher gluten content such as bread flour...or will that be too "bready" of a crust?

Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Matt


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2007, 12:00:26 PM »
Matt,

I think I can help. Will you be using a stand mixer (e.g., KitchenAid) to make your dough? And will you be using only your 15" screen, or do you also have a pizza stone?

Peter
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 12:06:03 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2007, 12:04:08 PM »
Hi Peter
I have a braun hand mixer with dough hooks. I haven't gotten a KA mixer yet...on the wish list  ;D

I have a stone but I find that the underside of the crust doesnt brown as well as without..so I've only been using the screen
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2007, 12:07:41 PM »
Matt,

I forgot to ask. Do you have access to Robin Hood and Five Roses flours in Canada and, if so, which forms (e.g., all-purpose or bread flour)?

Peter

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2007, 12:11:19 PM »
I have access to Robin Hood...maybe 5 roses...I'll have to check this week. I have the Sobey's brand "our compliments" bread, unbleached, and regular AP flour. Sobeys is a grocery store chain in canada

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2007, 12:20:40 PM »
Matt,

If you can get the Five Roses, I think that that is a better flour to use to make a NY style. BTW, what size is your pizza stone? Do you have a preference as to crust thickness? In the U.S., the two most common crust thicknesses for the NY style are thin (the kind made by NY "street style" pizza operators) and thinner (the so-called "elite" style made by the old NY names)?


Peter
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 12:27:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2007, 12:24:08 PM »
Hi
I will check into the 5 roses flour..AP or unbleached? My stone is smaller than my screen...13" but I'm not going to use it.

So bread flour isnt better than AP?

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2007, 12:25:48 PM »
Oops! I forgot to answer the crust question..
I like it on the thin side but not wafer thin. I like the crust on the edge to be poofy with bubbles in it
THanks

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2007, 12:33:44 PM »
Matt,

It doesn't matter whether the flour is bleached or unbleached. My recollection is that both the Robin Hood and Five Roses flours come in bleached and unbleached forms. In NYC, perhaps the most common flour for the NY street style is high-gluten flour. Since that may not be a viable option where you are, the next best choice in my opinion would be bread flour.

I often use a combination of screen and pizza stone for my NY style pizzas, especially if the size of pizza I want to make is larger than my pizza stone. It is certainly possible to use only the screen, but I personally prefer the combination.

Peter


Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2007, 12:35:59 PM »
Hi
So then bread flour is best? If so then it wont be 5 roses as they only make AP. Maybe I'll go with RH. Will bread flour give you that "airy and bubbly" at the edges? Or will it be too bready?
Thanks


Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2007, 01:19:27 PM »
Peter,
So which recipe for NY pizza would you recommend based on bread flour, hand mixer and screen? I usually make my dough a day ahead and put it in the fridge.
Thanks
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2007, 01:27:47 PM »
Matt,

I believe you are correct on the Five Roses flour. However, some time ago I spoke to a customer service rep at Five Roses and, after she consulted with someone on the technical side of the business, I was told that the Five Roses flour, although an all-purpose flour, has a protein content of 13%. That is close to some of our domestic brands of bread flour. I was also told that the the protein content of the Robin Hood flour, which is also an all-purpose flour, is 12%. So, if the information I was given is correct (I took it from my notes), as between the Five Roses and Robin Hood flours, I think the Five Roses is the better choice for our purposes. Another Canadian member, turbosundance, routinely supplements the flour he uses with vital wheat gluten to increase the protein content. But I would rather see what results you get before going that route.

Generally speaking, a higher protein flour should allow for a better developed gluten structure that better retains the gases of fermentation. Along with a fairly high hydration, that should help give you the open and airy crumb structure that you are looking for. I wish I could guarantee you that result, but each situation and each oven and oven configuration (e.g., screen alone, stone alone or a combination) is different. Since you only have an electric hand mixer at your disposal, that means that you will also have to do some hand kneading since you cannot knead a dough with an electric hand mixer alone. So, the final results will depend on how well you execute the entire dough making process. I can give you instructions for hand kneading only, but I think the combination of your electric hand mixer and some hand kneading produces better results than hand kneading only. It is up to you.

The fact that you will be using volume measurements will require that you measure out the flour and water in a precise way (that I will describe). I will be using a conversion tool to convert the flour and water in the dough formulation I give you from weights to volumes, and while I believe the conversions will be pretty good, you may still have to do some fine tuning of the flour and water quantities in the mixing bowl.

A couple of final questions. What kind of yeast do you plan to use (e.g., cake, ADY or IDY), and what kind of salt do you plan to use (e.g., regular table salt, sea salt, or Kosher salt)? If Kosher salt, what brand will you be using?

I plan to give you a Lehmann NY style dough formulation for a 15" pizza. It is one of our more popular recipes because it is very basic. The dough made using this formulation is intended to be cold fermented in the refrigerator. A 24-hour cold fermentation works well, although you can go out to about 2-3 days if you wish. BTW, what is the outdoor temperature where you live at this time of year?

It looks like this is going to be one of my more challenging assignments in some time.

Peter


Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 02:14:45 PM »
Hi Peter
I appreciate the help. Any questions, please ask.

I have Fleischmann's yeast in the following varieties: Bread Machine, Traditional, and Quick-Rise.

I will use regular table salt.

Outdoor temp this time of year is 5'C (41F). My house is usually 18'C (65F)

I will go with the AP 5Roses. I agree that hand kneading after hand-mixing with the Braun will be better. The dough hooks on the Braun do give it a good mix, though. I will also agree that putting it in the fridge for 24+ is better too
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 04:46:28 PM »
Matt,

OK. Here we go.

First, here is the Lehmann NY style dough formulation that I suggest you use for your maiden voyage with that formulation. The dough formulation is for a 15” pizza and was prepared using the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html based on the information you provided:

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (165.15%):
307.9 g  |  10.86 oz | 0.68 lbs
190.9 g  |  6.73 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.23 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.08 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
508.5 g | 17.94 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.1015

The above dough formulation assumes that you will be using the Five Roses flour and the Fleishchmann’s bread machine yeast, which is actually instant dry yeast (IDY) although not so marked on the yeast container. Normally, I would use 0.25% IDY but since it is getting cold where you are in Canada, I suggest increasing the yeast to 0.40%, as noted in the data presented above. I also used a thickness factor of 0.10 in the tool. The thickness factor is a general measure of crust thickness. The 0.10 value is typical for a NY thin style. To compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl (e.g., dough sticking to the beaters, the mixing bowl, etc.), I used a bowl residue compensation factor in the tool of 1.5% (which has the effect of increasing the thickness factor to 0.015 as noted in the above data). That is a value that I have determined from experience to work quite well for the Lehmann NY style dough formulation.

You may want to keep in mind that the Lehmann tool allows you to adjust any of the values. So, if changes are required down the road, they can be made easily and quickly.

For your purposes, you should use the volume measurements for the IDY, salt and oil given in the above formulation. In an effort to convert the weights of flour and water in the above data to volume measurements, I used a conversion tool developed by one of out members, November, and available at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. I assisted November by making hundreds of measurements of several different flours by volume using different size measuring cups and noting their weights. That data, and other data, were used to create the conversion tool. Unfortunately, the conversion tool does not have corresponding data for the two Canadian flours since they are not readily available to us in the U.S., especially the Five Roses flour. Consequently, I decided to use the King Arthur bread flour as a proxy for the Five Roses flour. This means that you may have to make some adjustments to the flour and the water in the bowl to get the final desired condition of the dough. But even with the best of data, adjustments are often needed.

Using November’s conversion tool (with the default values), I came up with the following conversion for the 10.86 ounces of flour specified in the above dough formulation: 2 ¼ cups plus 3 T., plus 1 t.

It is important that you measure out the amounts of flour using a specific method. It is the standard method recommended by King Arthur and others. Specifically, you should first stir the flour in your flour bag to loosen it, and then lift the flour out of the bag into your measuring cups using a tablespoon or scoop. You should fill the measuring cup just to the point of overflowing and then level off the top of the measuring cup with a flat edge, such as the flat edge of a kitchen knife. The tablespoon and teaspoon measurements should be level measurements.

November’s tool also allows one to convert from weight measurements of water to volume measurements. On that basis, the 6.73 ounces of water given in the above dough formulation equates to ¾ c. plus just under 3 t. You should view the amount of water in your measuring cup at eye level.

If you ultimately achieve success with your pizza making, you may also want to get a digital scale to go along with the stand mixer on your wish list. For me, the scale is invaluable since I work almost exclusively with weights for flour and water. And it is a great deal easier than using November's tool, especially for ingredients that are not covered by the tool.

The instructions that I recommend you use to prepare the dough are the ones I developed for a combination of an electric hand mixer and hand kneading, at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36489.html#msg36489 (Reply 30). I will leave it to you whether you want to sift the flour, but sifting the flour has become my standard operating procedure for all doughs.

The baking protocol that I use when I want to make a pizza that is larger than my stone can accommodate is the one given in the above post in the last paragraph. Your oven is likely to behave somewhat differently than mine, but what I do is to wait until the rim of the pizza starts to swell and to turn light brown and then move the pizza from the top or second-from-the-top oven rack position to the stone (preheated) on the lowest oven rack position (I remove the screen at this point). By that time, the pizza will be firm and it won’t matter that it is larger than your stone. It will just hang over the edge of your stone. If necessary to get more top crust browning or to cook the toppings more or brown the cheese more, I will usually move the pizza back to the upper rack position from the stone. On occasion, I will use the broiler element if necessary to complete the top bake.

Since the NY style pizzas are invariably baked on a stone surface, I don’t often use a pizza screen alone. However, if you choose to use only the pizza screen, I would place the pizza on the middle or lower oven rack position. Often, a bit of sugar (e.g. 1-2% by weight of flour) is used in the dough to get better crust coloration. In that case, the above Lehmann dough formulation would be revised to reflect the addition of the sugar. If you go the screen-only route, you may discover that you don't need the sugar.

If you have any questions or comments before proceeding, let me know. In the meantime, you may also want to take a look at the following thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. I realize that you are not a “newbie” but that thread has a lot of useful tips on how to make a basic Lehmann NY style pizza. Some baking tips are given toward the end of that thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg20965.html#msg20965 (Reply 45).

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:24:22 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2007, 05:55:15 PM »
Hi Peter
Thank you very much! I found that Walmart carries 5 Roses AP flour.
What do you think about Autolyse? Is that just gently mixing then letting it sit for 20mins prior to kneading?
Thanks !
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2007, 06:52:11 PM »
Matt,

I think the best thread on this forum on autolyse is this one: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22758.html#msg22758. I try to use the term autolyse in its original sense but over time the term has become synonymous with a rest period—any rest period. Often the rest period is not an autolyse at all but rather fermentation, which is antithetical to the concept of autolyse. The classic autolyse is with flour and water and, in some cases, a starter or IDY that doesn’t activate during the rest period.

There is not very much that I haven’t tried with the Lehmann dough formulation, including the use of autolyse, as you will see if you look at the Lehmann Roadmap at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193. When I tried autolyse with the basic Lehmann dough formulation, I found the crumb to be too soft and too breadlike for my taste. However, I seem to be in the minority on this, and many of our members routinely use autolyse or some version of it with the Lehmann dough. These days, I tend to use autolyse selectively, as when I am trying to improve the hydration of the flour for some reason or where I want to keep the total mix/knead time at a minimum so as to minimize gluten development. I have been doing this recently with low-hydration cracker-style doughs. With these doughs there is no breadlike crumb--in fact, there is no crumb to speak of--because the dough skins are crushed with a rolling pin and the crusts end up crispy and cracker-like.

My usual advice to people is to try autolyse and judge from the results whether it is a worthy addition.

Peter

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2007, 07:56:41 PM »
Thanks Peter
I might try to autolyse..but I couldnt see on those links a good way of doing so...Is it just resting for a period of time before kneading?

Also, I'm hoping to double the recipe...Is that ok?

Are there certain scale that you recommend? I noticed in the stores that most are not reading less than 1g

Also, what is your preferred way of preparing the dough for the screen? Tossing? Rolling pin? pressing?
Thanks for your help
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2007, 11:31:25 PM »
Matt,

There are many forms and implementations of autolyse. Some combine all of the flour and all of the water and then let the mixture rest for a period of time before adding the yeast, salt and oil. Some versions combine part of the flour and part of the water and, after the rest period, the rest of the flour and the rest of the water and the yeast, salt and oil are added. As previously mentioned, some people add the yeast (or a starter or preferment) with the flour and water. At one time or another I have used all of these versions of autolyse. In most cases, the heavy duty kneading takes place after the autolyse rest period. In case you are wondering, there is no fixed or set period of time for the rest period. It can be as little as 5 minutes and it can be an hour or more. Autolyse was conceived for use in making bread dough, so there isn’t a lot in the literature that pertains to its use in pizza dough making. Very few professional pizza operators use it, in good part because their equipment and operating systems aren't set up for it. Most of what has been written about autolyse for pizza dough making is here on this forum. You may have to use the forum search feature to find the different ways that our members have used autolyse and variation thereof. Many of those versions were made up by our members.

There is no problem in doubling the recipe. However, you may not be able to knead the dough all at once. You may have to make separate dough batches. If you go to the Lehmann dough calculator, you can enter the number of dough balls you want, together with the rest of the requested information, and the tool will give you the total ingredient quantities. Once you get a stand mixer, you should be able to make the dough in a single batch.

On the matter of scales, you may want to take a look at this recent reply that I posted when another member asked about scales: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5626.msg47736.html#msg47736. From that post and the posts linked therein you should be able to decide what model and type of scale might best meet your needs and pocketbook.

When I make my dough skins, I start by pressing the dough out using my fingers and then stretch it the rest of the way out by hand. About the only time I use a rolling pin is for cracker-style doughs that can only be opened up by a rolling pin.

Peter

Offline BenLee

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2007, 12:37:59 PM »
Matt,

you should check your supermarket for some "vital wheat gluten".  It allows you to add additional gluten to whatever flour you want. 

I've made pizza with:

King Arthur All Purpose
King Arthur Bread Flour
King Arthur Organic Bread Flour
King Arthur Sir Lancelot
Caputo 00
White Semolina Flour
Yellow Semolina Flour
and I've tried about 6 or 7 different 00 flours imported from Italy that a local italian deli by me carries.

I can make a great pie with all of them.  But my favorite has been using King Arthur All Purpose Flour combined with some vital wheat gluten (it makes my dough much more pliable).  So, yes, you can get away with all purpose flour.  If you are looking to really stretch the dough, I suggest you add some wheat gluten.  Also, you should try mixing flours.  00 flour and semolina flour doesn't char as fast as American flours do.  Mixing the two can give you a great combination of charring and strength of crust.

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2007, 03:55:48 PM »
Hi Peter
You're a credit to the pizza lovers everywhere!

The plan is to make the dough tomorrow night but with a 20 hour refigeration to be used the following night. I'm a bit nervous as I find that whenever I make dough, it is TOO SPRINGY (hard to stretch) and tears often...which can be a source of stress :(

I've looked at "my weigh" i5500 which has a 0.1g increment to 5500g total. What do you think about that model?

BenLee (and you as well Peter) suggested vital wheat gluten. How much to you add to the AP flour?
THanks
Matt