Author Topic: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)  (Read 5732 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2007, 06:19:30 PM »
Matt,

Where did you find the i5000 and at what price?

Although I alluded to the use of vital wheat gluten in an earlier post, I didnít want to distract you from trying a basic NY style dough. However, since BenLee also mentioned using vital wheat gluten, you may want to take a look at these threads that were started by turbosundance, another Canadian: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4803.msg40790.html#msg40790 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4981.msg42144.html#msg42144. From these threads, you will learn a lot about supplementing flours with vital wheat gluten.

Peter


Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2007, 06:43:38 PM »
Peter:

$189 for i5500 (either in US or CDN $)
Don't worry...I'm not going to tackle the wheat gluten yet... I'll try to keep the variables at a minimum  :chef:
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2007, 07:04:50 PM »
Matt,

I misread the scale model you were considering. I don't think you need to spend that kind of money on a scale. You will be using it mainly for flour and water. The rest of the ingredients can be measured out by volume. So, you don't need 0.1 g. accuracy. You should be able to get a decent scale for home use for around $50. The MyWeigh 7000 (or something similar) and some of the Escali models should be fine. I just don't want you to overspend for the type of use we are talking about.

Peter

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2007, 07:15:29 PM »
Hi
There are other models like the 7000 that are more reasonable...So you don't need 0.1g? Most of the measurements are to the 0.1g
M

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2007, 07:42:19 PM »
Matt,

When Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I developed the dough calculating tools, we were working with conversion data that often went out several decimal places. On the outside chance that someone might want more accurate data, we left a lot of the accuracy in. As a practical matter, for the small number of dough balls that the average home pizza maker makes, you can round out the numbers to the nearest gram (or 0.05 oz. with my scale). If you were using the tools to get data on hundreds of dough balls, the accuracy might be more useful for that case.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 07:43:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DWChun

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2007, 08:04:12 PM »
Hi Matt.

It's great to see another Canadian pizza enthusiast in the forum!

To answer your initial about achieving a bubbly crust with AP flour, I say yes. I don't have access to KA flour or anything of the sort but I've managed to find the right way to formulate my dough using Robin Hood flour to get a bubbly crust with a great oven spring, crisp exterior and soft interior. I've recently been using 50% Robin Hood AP flour and 50% Robin Hood Best For Bread Whole Wheat flour to make great dough.

For 40 ounces of dough I use 100% flour, 62% water, 2tsp of sea salt, and 1/4tsp Fleishchmann Quick Rise Instant Yeast(my scale isn't sensitive enough to accurately measure my salt and yeast amounts). I combine all the water with 75% of the flour, let it autolyse for 20-30 minutes, and then add the rest of the flour, salt, and yeast. I have a KA600 Pro mixer, bought for a good price secondhand on eBay, and I mix the dough for 12 or so minutes on speed 2. I've learned that it's better to underknead than to overknead to get the results I look for using my dough formula as I use a 48-72 hour cold rise. I also use a baking stone and not a screen as you asked about but I think only minor adjustments would be needed to make the dough perform appropriately for screen use.

I first read from Jeff Varasano's site that the type of flour is certainly an important factor but how it is used is just as important. Looking back on my pizzas this past year, I think it's definitely true. I started out with the same ingredients that I use now(flour, water, salt, & yeast) but the ratios and approach to using them is what changed. The difference in results are drastic. For me, it's largely about technique.


DW

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2007, 09:36:01 PM »
Thanks for the info DW
I'm going to try the recipe that Peter provided for me as I have the necessary ingredients. I'll try to remember to take pix of my 1st attempt. My only concern is the 20 hr cold rise time...I'm worried that might be not enough...

Offline canadave

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2007, 09:50:54 PM »
I have to mention, I live in Nova Scotia and I just went through an exhaustive search for flours in preparation for making my NY pizza (I just moved here from Alberta, and unlike Alberta, there is no local wholesaler from whom I can easily acquire good high-gluten flour).

In the process of my searching, I found this article:
http://tinyurl.com/28gca9

It's a general article on flour and gluten/protein content, but it's of special note for us Canadians--scroll down and look at the "Canadian Flour" subheading.  Apparently the article claims that even Canadian all-purpose flour is relatively high enough in protein/gluten content to be used for those types of applications.

I was curious, so I went down to the local Atlantic Superstore and had a look.  Sure enough, the protein content on the Robin Hood All-Purpose flour was 4g (out of a 30g serving size).  That translates to 13.333333%--which is pretty high.  Sure, a good high-gluten flour would be around 14%, maybe approaching 15% at the very most, but I think 13 and a third is close enough.  As Pete mentioned, you can supplement that with gluten flour if need be.

Interestingly, I looked at some other flour varieties from Robin Hood ("Best for Bread", "Nutriflour", etc)....and they ALL had the same protein percentage.  They differed only very slightly from each other in terms of things like fat content...so minor a difference that it would be negligible.

Also interesting--this has probably been discussed on this forum before, but I was unaware until I did some reading...this "White Wheat Flour", which apparently has the taste and texture of white flour but preserves the nutritious parts of the wheat such as you'd find in wheat flour.  Robin Hood's variety is "Nutriflour," which I bought, and I also bought a "Stone-ground White Whole Wheat Flour" from a local mill here (Speerville).

I'm going to experiment with these flours (and I also bought some gluten flour from an organic foods place), so I'll see how these flours work in practice.

--Dave

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2007, 09:59:34 PM »
Hi Canadave
Welcome to NS! I so happen to be from NS too. I went to Walmart and on Peter's advice, I was able to secure some 5Roses AP flour (4g as well per 30g). Where did you buy the Vital Gluten flour?

Offline canadave

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2007, 10:21:54 PM »
Oh, excellent, glad to see a Bluenoser around here :)  I got the gluten flour at Organic Planet on Quinpool in Halifax.  I only got a little bit...I don't expect I'll need much, since the protein content seems so high in the flours from Superstore (I believe the Five Roses is available at Superstore too, by the way).


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2007, 10:41:23 PM »
I was curious, so I went down to the local Atlantic Superstore and had a look.  Sure enough, the protein content on the Robin Hood All-Purpose flour was 4g (out of a 30g serving size).  That translates to 13.333333%--which is pretty high.

I don't know what the labelling laws are in Canada, but in the U.S. manufacturers are allowed to round off numbers on their labels. This applies to flours as well. So, the protein content calculated from information on the label may be higher or lower than the actual amount. I have seen the same sort of thing with oils in the supermarket. The vast majority of them say on the labels that 1 tablespoon weighs 14 grams. It doesn't matter what the oil is. Having researched the nutrition data on several different oils, I know they are not identical. They may be close in many cases but not identical.

Some members have reported buying high-gluten flour from Costco's and the labels contain the same information as given on bags of all-purpose flour.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2007, 10:56:38 PM »
My only concern is the 20 hr cold rise time...I'm worried that might be not enough...


Matt,

I think you should be OK with 20 hours. The recipe you will be using is a variation of the original Lehmann NY style dough formulation at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52. As you will see from that recipe, the dough can be used starting at 12 hours. If you are worried, you might let the dough warm up an extra hour before using. Unless your kitchen is really cold, the dough should be soft to the touch after a few hours at room temperature. The dough will be good for a few hours beyond that point. It won't be a total of 6 hours as noted in the instructions for the Lehmann recipe because doughs made with all-purpose flour don't last as long on the bench as doughs made with high-gluten flour.

Peter

Offline canadave

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2007, 10:57:43 PM »
Quote
I don't know what the labelling laws are in Canada, but in the U.S. manufacturers are allowed to round off numbers on their labels. This applies to flours as well. So, the protein content calculated from information on the label may be higher or lower than the actual amount.
Well, that'd make sense :)  Not sure about the laws here regarding ingredient rounding, but I'd bet it's the same as the US.  

Having used some good high-gluten flour in the past, I'll see how the flours work out (alone, in combination with some gluten flour, etc) in comparison.  Might take me some time to do, but hopefully at some point I can post some results.

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2007, 11:06:46 AM »
thanks canadave for the tip. I'll hit up Planet Organic...but for now, I will try the AP flour only. I'm curious to see how much gluten you add to the flour...let me know how you make out with that.

Peter: thanks for the tip on the cold-time.

FYI: what I'm trying to achieve for my "dream crust" is a crunchy almost stiff and golden outside but when you tear or bite thru it, it is "airy" and feels almost underdone of sorts....Almost like it is semi-empty due to the bubbles. I guess another way of describing it is like some bakeries who bake bread with that golden crust with almost a sourdough-like interior

My crusts are often white and dense..too chewy on the inside..i find that my crust doesnt get golden enough
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2007, 12:14:28 PM »
FYI: what I'm trying to achieve for my "dream crust" is a crunchy almost stiff and golden outside but when you tear or bite thru it, it is "airy" and feels almost underdone of sorts....Almost like it is semi-empty due to the bubbles. I guess another way of describing it is like some bakeries who bake bread with that golden crust with almost a sourdough-like interior

My crusts are often white and dense..too chewy on the inside..i find that my crust doesnt get golden enough

Matt,

What you are looking for is one of the most requested results but one of the hardest to achieve in my opinion in a standard unmodified home oven. Most people who achieve that result usually use very high oven temperatures (higher than a home oven can deliver) and a short bake time. What sometimes helps in a home oven situation is to let the formed skin proof before dressing and baking, that is, let it rise for about an hour before dressing and baking. The skin in that case will act like an insulator to the oven heat and allow for enough time for the crust to become a bit crunchy while the interior remains fairly soft. Bread bakers often achieve similar results, but usually at lower temperatures, by using steam at the front end of the bake. It also sometimes helps to use more yeast than normal to insure a good rise and oven spring.

Peter

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2007, 07:10:04 PM »
Peter et al...HELP!
I've just followed the directions and as I was combining the flour and water, it was stiff and flaky..almost like pie crust..then after some kneading it is about the consistency of playdoh. I'm letting it sit for 20mins to autolyse then I will knead it further then separate into 2 balls (I've doubled the recipe). Is there something I'm missing? I've followed it to the letter..
Matt

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2007, 07:51:41 PM »
Hi Peter et al
Here is a pic of the dough ball ready for the fridge. It was not tacky at all. I could bare-hand it without having flour on me. It felt like play doh  :(

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2007, 09:39:04 AM »
Matt,

From your description more so than from the photo, it looks like you may have needed more water. It may take a few tries for you to learn how your flour hydrates and to make adjustments in the bowl or on your work surface where you are doing the hand kneading. Using a scale would also help but, as I previously mentioned, even then it may be necessary to tweak the flour and water. When I use a scale, the adjustments are quite minor, usually at the teaspoon level.

Peter

Offline mgsimms

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2007, 06:53:54 PM »
Ok guys, here was my first kick at the can.
1) The dough sat for 19 hrs in fridge, 2 1/2 hrs in the bin. Dough looked about 50% bigger. Was fluffier than the previous day but not as fluffy as I have had it in the past.

2)Dough was firmer than pizzas in the past. not sticky to my hands...turned it out on floured surface and gently pressed to approx 15". On the 2nd pizza (double batch), there were minor holes as dough overall was very springy and would return almost to its original shape. After some encouragement, I was able to get it pressed out to my satisfaction...Was thinning 3" in centre of dough then thickening outwards after that.

3) Left it for 15mins rise time while chopping veggies & preheat 550F

4) In oven for 10mins at 550.

5) Pizzas came out with nice crispy crust. My wife (and I) found it to be too "chewy". Crust on bottom was cooked...actually too crunchy on the bottom...It was almost felt like you were going to lose a filling. Overall dough kept its heavy feeling from the previous day.

Some bubbles in crust but only few and far between. Rest of dough was pretty heavy.

See pics below.
Love to hear your feedback.
Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: WANTED: NY pizza dough recipe for screen (NO KA flour access)
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2007, 07:42:01 PM »
Matt,

When you said that you left the dough in the "bin", does that mean you left it in its storage container?  Did you bake the pizza entirely on the screen or did you use a combination of screen and stone? In either case, which oven rack position(s) did you use? A total bake time of 10 minutes at 550 degrees F seems long to me and is perhaps why the crust was so chewy. Apart from these issues, I think you should increase the hydration of the dough next time. Also, with the rest period, I think you shouldn't need more than about 6-7 minutes of hand kneading (for each dough ball) after the rest period. I might add that a dough made with all-purpose flour is more prone to tears forming than one made with a higher protein content because of the lower gluten formation in the all-purpose dough. I don't know if that was a factor in this case. However, if the dough was stiff, it's possible that that aggravated the situation and made the dough more conducive to holes forming.

Based on your comments about the type of crust you are after, I am also beginning to wonder whether it is the American style of pizza you are really after rather than the NY style, which does tend to be on the chewy side. The American style uses a lot of sugar and oil in the dough to produce a soft and tender crumb. It can also be baked entirely on a screen. A common example of the American style is a Papa John's pizza. However, I think you can do better at home in your own oven.

Peter