Author Topic: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :) (Read 53550 times)

pnj · « **Reply #40 on:** March 27, 2008, 12:36:20 PM »

I've been itching for a really good pie lately. I'm going to try this one out tonight.

What happens if I leave one of the dough balls in the fridge for a day or two? I've found that no matter what I add to the dough, if I leave it to cold ferment for a day or more it is allways easier to work and seems to increase the flavor as well. yet this dough seems to be one that you cook the same day. One thing I don't like about pizza making is that I have to plan so far ahead for good pizza....

And why are there NO pictures of this elusive pie?

pnj · « **Reply #41 on:** March 28, 2008, 12:56:10 PM »

well, made this yesterday. I don't have a mixer so I had to use my hands. kinda sucks.. the dough was really wet/moist. I cooked it at around 500 or so and used a flat pan with no holes. It was the first time I'd used this pan. I sprayed a small amount of oil on the pan and placed the dough on it.

the dough was VERY thin. the crust didn't puff too much, I would have like more rise.

it tasted fine but about an hour later I had a funny floury feeling in my stomach... weird.

sourdough girl · « **Reply #42 on:** March 28, 2008, 03:07:45 PM »

pnj,
I'm no expert, (that would be Pete-zza!) but I'm guessing that the use of a cold pan with the dough is why you didn't get the oven spring you wanted. I have made this recipe several times (and am making it again tonight... the poolish is on the counter!) and I bake at 550^o F on a stone preheated for at least an hour. I get GREAT oven spring with the hot stone. I also have a second stone directly above so that the entire pizza is evenly cooked. If you don't have a stone, you might want to consider investing in one... it does make a difference!

Just curious... did you leave one of the dough balls in the fridge for a cold retard? If you did, I would sure like to hear the results. I think this recipe is designed with the poolish so that you don't necessarily need a cold overnight ferment. The poolish gives it extra flavor instead.

As for the "floury" feeling... I'm not sure what that's all about, but I can tell you that, for me, this crust is very light, crisp and flavorful, with just the right amount of chewiness... it is the only one I have made so far where DH doesn't leave ANY crust on the plate... he eats the entire slice! That's high praise from him!

I will post pics of tonight's pizza...

~sd

Pete-zza · « **Reply #43 on:** March 28, 2008, 05:17:26 PM »

In the opening post in this thread, Jerry mentioned that there were pictures of his pizzas available on the forum, and that there was also a video by Bill/SFNM showing a similar dough condition out of the mixer. I believe the video is the one at

<a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=DQd38yoND0g" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtube.com/watch?v=DQd38yoND0g</a>

, but I have been unable to find the pictures of Jerry's pizzas. Can anyone provide a link to those pizzas?

As to pnj's results, I believe that part of the problem stemmed from making the dough by hand. Jerry relies on visual cues to tell him when the dough is ready, specifically, when the dough pulls away from the sides of his mixer bowl but not from the bottom. When making the dough by hand, it is hard to get comparable visual cues. That problem is exacerbated by the fact that, by my estimation, the hydration of the dough is somewhere between 75-81%. That range assumes that Jerry measures out his flour and water textbook style, and could well be different if he uses different measuring methods. In any event, it takes considerable skill to make skins out of a dough with a hydration of close to 80%. Using a cold pan to bake the pizza also did not help, as sourdough girl has pointed out. Ideally, you would like the dough to hit a very hot stone to get the best oven spring. When a pan is used, the pan has to get up to temperature before the pizza on it can start to bake and exhibit good oven spring. With a very highly hydrated dough, it is hard to get the oomph needed to yield good dough expansion. Using a perforated pan might have helped by getting some of the heat directly to the dough.

It is possible to cold ferment a dough based on the poolish method, but usually the purpose of using the poolish method in the first place is to save on total preparation time. The usual practice is as Jerry described. To materially depart from that method will usually require modifying the dough formulation and the dough management process, as by altering the amounts of yeast, the poolish and/or dough fermentation times, temperatures, etc.

Peter

abatardi · « **Reply #44 on:** March 28, 2008, 09:03:48 PM »

Quote from: pnj on March 27, 2008, 12:36:20 PM

And why are there NO pictures of this elusive pie?

I guess we're supposed to have faith.

- aba

Mick · « **Reply #45 on:** March 29, 2008, 04:22:49 AM »

Quote from: abatardi on March 28, 2008, 09:03:48 PM

I guess we're supposed to have faith.

- aba

Pete-zza · « **Reply #46 on:** March 29, 2008, 07:25:32 PM »

Here is my attempt at Jerry's NY style: 13" mushroom and pepperoni, baked at 550 degrees F on a pizza stone for about 6 minutes. I kept track of everything I did, so I can provide whatever detail anyone may desire.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #47 on:** March 29, 2008, 07:35:43 PM »

Another photo of the pizza from another side..

sourdough girl · « **Reply #48 on:** March 29, 2008, 08:27:42 PM »

Peter!
Nice pizza!!

I made a couple last night using Jerry's recipe. Didn't get any slice photos, but have a couple of other photos to share. The close up shows the nice, brown crust bubbles which signify those nice voids.

"Faith" is no longer needed!!

The pies were sure GOOD!! I made one with little fishies, pepperoni, black olives, diced yellow onion and diced red pepper. Would have liked green pepper better for the visual contrast, and some fresh mushrooms, but didn't have any in the fridge. I used part skim Precious mozz. The sauce was an 8 oz can of Hunt's tomato sauce mixed with McCormick's "Gourmet" Tuscan style dried herbs (purchased at Costco). This is my "emergency" sauce when I discover, to my chagrin, that I have no "good" tomatoes in the pantry.
The other was Precious fresh mozz, sliced fresh tomatoes, fresh basil (some added before baking, some after... photo shows only the "before" basil) and EVOO. Both were WONDERFUL! The fresh mozz/tomato pizza was baked second and, since we were quite hungry, I didn't allow long enough for the oven/stone to recover, so that pizza crust is not as dark. But, I can tell you, it was just as flavorful!

I baked at 550^o on a stone (with a second stone ~3" above) that was preheated for over an hour. The pizzas baked in about 6 minutes. Nice crust bubbles on the first pizza and good browning. When I sliced it with the pizza wheel, there was a nice, crisp crunch. The crust was chewy and flavorful.

LOVE this crust! Have yet to try it with my homegrown starter, but that will be another iteration.

~sd

Pete-zza · « **Reply #49 on:** March 29, 2008, 08:40:23 PM »

I hope that Jerry will tell us exactly how he measures out the flour when he makes the dough. I ended up with a hydration of around 66%. I found that I had to work fast to dress the pizza so that it wouldn't stick to the peel. If I know how Jerry measures out the flour I should be able to get a better fix on the hydration. It's a good recipe, and a good choice for a pizza to be made same day. I used barley malt syrup, which accounts for the light brown color of both the dough and the crumb.

Peter

abatardi · « **Reply #50 on:** March 29, 2008, 09:39:43 PM »

You always 'gotta have faith..'... ;-)

What's more telling is the 3 very different pies I see that all followed the same recipe. From very thin crust with no voids to a big fluffy pie. This was always my point from the beginning. If Pete knew the exact formula that pnj ended up 'using' to make his pie (what he actually put into the bowl by feel) and wanted to make a copy, I'm sure his would have looked very similar to pnj's version. I would be interested to see Pete post what the formula ended up being for his attempt (by weight if he kept track of it) and then have pnj give it another shot by following that [formula by weight].

- aba

sourdough girl · « **Reply #51 on:** March 29, 2008, 10:10:39 PM »

Quote from: abatardi on March 29, 2008, 09:39:43 PM

You always 'gotta have faith..'... ;-)
- aba

Figures you'd be a George Michael fan.

I'll rise to YOUR bait just for the sake of honest dialog:

I don't think the LOOK of the pie has as much to do with the recipe as it does with the chef and his/her surroundings... for instance, the oven (meaning highest temp available, convection or non-convection, etc) the stone, (or lack thereof in pnj's case) the preheat time, the ambient kitchen temp for the poolish/dough rise... I think those, and quite a few more, variables exist with ANY recipe... and the photos would reflect that on almost any thread on this forum. I have made this dough three times and all three times had the same good result: GREAT pizza that DH and I enjoyed moreso than any we have purchased.

The true point is: was the pizza GOOD? Was it what you want it to be? If yes, the recipe works. If no, keep looking for a "better" one. THAT aspect is completely subjective and not based on photos on a website.
For a same-day dough (sometimes the pizza urge strikes TODAY and we don't have time for a 3-day fridge retard) THIS recipe works for me. That, to me, is all that is important.

~sd

Pete-zza · « **Reply #52 on:** March 29, 2008, 10:21:37 PM »

aba,

I made half the recipe and adjusted the knead time accordingly. Otherwise, I followed the recipe the way it was described in Jerry’s first post. It is possible that by making only one dough ball rather than two and letting it rise twice (1 ½ hours each time) I may have altered the dough such that it had a lot of gas that resulted in tremendous oven spring with huge bubbles. I have read that a single large dough ball ferments differently than several smaller dough balls that collectively weigh the same as the larger one.

The most difficult part was getting the amount of flour right and dividing it properly between the preferment and the final mix. I measured out the flour by dipping my measuring cups into the bag of flour and shaking the measuring cups gently to get the flour level in the measuring cups. I assumed that Jerry didn't use the stir-lift-level method of measuring out flour.

The dough formulation I ended up with after the fact was this one:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.242%):
IDY (1.3535%):
Kosher Salt (1.61763%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (4.71809%):
Total (173.93122%):

222.55 g | 7.85 oz | 0.49 lbs
147.42 g | 5.2 oz | 0.32 lbs
3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
3.6 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
10.5 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
387.08 g | 13.65 oz | 0.85 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: The flour is King Arthur bread flour; the Kosher salt is Morton’s; the finished dough weight was 13.30 oz.; the hydration of the preferment (weight of preferment water divided by the weight of preferment flour) was 128.4%

I ended up using 4.05 ounces of flour and 5.20 ounces of water for the preferment (along with part of the IDY). The amount of flour that I used in the final mix was 3.80 ounces. Based on Jerry’s recipe, I should have used an amount of flour in the preferment that was equal to or a bit less than what I used in the final mix. If I knew how Jerry measured out the flour, I think I should be able to fine tune the numbers and create a dough formulation that is closer to his recipe. I showed the photo of the dough on my scale so that Jerry can comment on whether it looks right. I used a basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook to knead the dough.

As noted above, I used barley malt syrup. I don’t know what the others used. It may have been honey. Both the preferment and the final dough fermented/proofed at around 71 degrees F. I am sure I could have stretched the skin out to 14", which would have resulted in a smaller rim. I don't recall what size pizzas the others made.

Peter

sourdough girl · « **Reply #53 on:** March 29, 2008, 10:50:13 PM »

Peter,
I used honey (Fred Meyer, pure clover, grade A) and my ambient kitchen temp was ~68^o F for the rises. Another variable is how long the poolish was left to ferment (Jerry says 4 to 5 hours) and mine was fermented for about 4 hours, 45 minutes. I used Diamond Crystal kosher salt. That's another variable, since it's "flakier" than Morton's. My pizzas were stretched to 11" based on the size of my peel. I used HK bread flour, both for the poolish and the final dough. I made a 2/3 the dough batch (LOVE my KitchenCalc!!) to make 2 pizzas of the appropriate size to his recipe.

I didn't weigh my ingredients after volume measurement, but next time, I will.

My question to you, Peter: did you LIKE the pizza?? I'm guessing so, since you say it's a "good recipe, and a good choice for a pizza to be made the same day".... I would like some subjective input, if you wouldn't mind?!?

thanks,
~sd

Pete-zza · « **Reply #54 on:** March 29, 2008, 11:22:34 PM »

sourdough girl,

I would say that my preferment worked for almost 5 hours. I watched for the "break", which is the point just after the preferment peaks and then starts to recede. From that point, there is a reasonable period of time to use the preferment. The break, as best I could detect it, came at about 4 hours and 45 minutes.

Based on my finished dough weight (13.30 oz.) and the 13" pizza size, I calculated the thickness factor to be around 0.10. That allowed me to do a better comparison with other NY style pizzas that I have made using the same thickness factor.

I thought the pizza was very good. It was more breadlike and with a much larger rim than what I am used to in a NY style but those differences didn't detract from the eating experience. And the crust had good flavor and texture. This wasn't the first time I used a preferment for a NY style. See, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239/topicseen.html#msg23239 (Reply 362), in which I used a "biga" like preferment for a take-and-bake version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. I think using preferments is a good idea in general. I would definitely use Jerry's recipe again. As you might suspect, I would prefer to have a good baker's percent version of the recipe that would allow me (and others) to play around with it and make modifications without altering the basic characteristics of the pizza. So, for example, if I wanted to make an 18" version, I could come up with the formulation easily and quickly.

Peter

Bryan S · « **Reply #55 on:** March 29, 2008, 11:22:52 PM »

SD Girl, FANTASTIC looking pies.

Peter, FANTASIC looking pie as well.

But you know, really what do pictures provide other than eye candy? They sure do look good, but taste is where it's at for me. I guarantee I could make a awsome looking pie that tastes like crap and could make one ugly looking pizza that tastes awsome. It's all about the taste, who cares what it looks like. JMO, Rant over. On a upbeat note, I'll bet they tasted as good as they look. Nice job, real nice

JerryMac · « **Reply #56 on:** March 30, 2008, 12:00:39 AM »

abatardi,

Really, I don't want to seem arrogant, But, Please, look at the pies that have been produced using this "recipe"

I am a "one day dough" guy and have worked on this for 8 years !!!

Please look at the recent pics of My, Pete and Sourdough Girls Pics of Pies made with this "Recipe"

Mangia Bene

Jerry

JerryMac · « **Reply #57 on:** March 30, 2008, 12:18:37 AM »

Pete and Cathy,

I can't thank you enough for the time and effort you have put into trying my "Recipe" / "Method"

I am Really glad that it makes People Think

Pete, I'll get back to you soon as to the method I use to "Measure" flour

Thanks Guys,

Mangia Bene

Jerry

JerryMac · « **Reply #58 on:** March 30, 2008, 12:43:13 AM »

Hey Guys, Guess What

Life's a Crap Shoot

Enjoy It

Jerry

Bryan S · « **Reply #59 on:** March 30, 2008, 12:52:39 AM »

Quote from: JerryMac on March 30, 2008, 12:43:13 AM

Hey Guys, Guess What

Life's a Crap Shoot

Enjoy It

Jerry

Jerry Buddy. Keep on keeping on. I still want to make this dough one of these days. I'm going through some health issues these days. I haven't made pizza in many, many months. I hope to be able to get back into it sometime soon. Great pics of your dough by SD Girl, and Peter. They look soooooo good.