Author Topic: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :) (Read 53513 times)

JerryMac · « **Reply #60 on:** March 30, 2008, 01:15:02 AM »

Bryan S,

Go Get is Kid

Jerry

JerryMac · « **Reply #61 on:** March 31, 2008, 08:45:03 AM »

Pete,

Measuring flour - I just scoop and shake off the excess as you suspected

Two other things you pointed out, that I feel are important in this "Recipe" are:

1: the "break point" in the poolish, watch for the peak and get it before it falls and yes it should be around 4 hrs 45 min

2: kneading, watch for the dough to clear the sides but not bottom of the bowl. If it clears the bottom, the dough will be too dry

If i had to guess, I'd say the hydration will wind up in the high 60's and not closer to 80, My Sicilian dough and focaccia are probably in the 80's.

Here are links to pic of some pies made with this "Recipe"

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5829.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

Oh yea Pete, you were right, you have to work fast to top this pie on the peel or it will stick. Maybe this little point will help people to understand the "feel" of this dough

Hope all this helps a little

Fughedaboudit

Jerry

Pete-zza · « **Reply #62 on:** March 31, 2008, 10:34:47 AM »

Jerry,

Thanks for the additional information.

I measured out the flour just as you did because I figured that that is the method you would use because of its utter simplicity. I think I may have actually been a bit on the dry side with my dough because it did not quite stick to the middle of the bowl, even at 66% hydration. As I reported, I made one dough ball. If you were to make just one dough ball, would you let it rise the second time? I can see that with two dough balls they might need some time to recover from handling, shaping, etc. From your photos, it looks like you may have used honey instead of barley malt syrup. Is that correct? Because of the high hydration, I think that it might be worth trying a perforated disk or maybe even a perforated cutter pan (both dark anodized). There seems to be plenty of lift in the dough to still be able to have good oven spring. Using a disk or pan will make it much easier for someone to dress the pizza and not fear that it will stick to the peel.

Peter

sourdough girl · « **Reply #63 on:** March 31, 2008, 02:03:05 PM »

Jerry,
Thanks for the clarifications... I usually watch for a silver dollar sized spot of dough in the bottom of the mixer bowl and that's when I quit with the flour. I use the "stir, spoon, sweep" method which explains why I have to add a little more flour than you do! It makes sense! As for the poolish, I didn't wait for the signs of falling back, mostly because I was pressed for time. I think it could have gone a little longer, based on the fact that my kitchen temp is about 3 or 4 degrees cooler than Peter's. All good knowledge to have!

And remember, the best--and only--compliment you will get from aba is his silence.

Peter...
Thanks for the subjective comments. I know you are a science-guy and sometimes it's hard for science-guys to be subjective... objectivity is the norm. Recipes like Jerry's, are mix of art and science, which is why I really enjoy making this recipe! My educational background is both scientific and artistic, so I guess that explains my being drawn to a VM recipe.

And yes, I had issues with the dough sticking to the peel, so I solved it by the use of parchment paper. If you look at the photo of my tomato/cheese pie, the parchment is still there. Since it was the second pie baked, the parchment didn't turn as black as the first pie...with my oven set to 550, the paper under the first pizza browned/blackened at the edges and became very brittle but didn't catch fire. I realize that I sacrificed some crispness (but not MUCH!) by removing the initial direct contact of the dough with the moisture-absorbing stone. With the first pie, I pulled the parchment out as soon as the crust had set, so that crust was quite crisp. The crust on the tomato pie was still very good, but I wish I had let the oven/stone recover more. Or perhaps I should have started it on the hotter upper stone and moved it down. That's an experiment for the next time!
But, bottom line, I would much rather use parchment than a cold pan to resolve the sticking issue.

Bryan,
Thanks for the compliments! I'm sorry to hear of your issues and hope that you will be able to return to pizza making soon! How you must torture yourself looking at these photos!

~sd

Pete-zza · « **Reply #64 on:** March 31, 2008, 03:19:20 PM »

sourdough girl,

Technically, what Jerry uses as a preferment is not a "poolish", which requires using equal weights of flour and water. It is quite possible that the break point will be more readily detectable in a classic poolish, and similarly for a sponge, than a more watery one like Jerry's. I calculated a hydration of around 128% for the preferment I made using Jerry's recipe, whereas a classic poolish will have a hydration of 100%. This is just a technical point since the differences aren't likely to have a significant effect on the final outcome. However, for someone using a scale, it might make it a bit easier to measure out the flour and water.

FYI, according to theartisan.net treatise on yeast, at http://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm (click on "Fermentation Control" in the left panel and look under Sponge Doughs), after the break point arrives there is still time left to use the preferment. As a practical matter, even if the preferment is past its prime it can still contribute acids and other byproducts of fermentation that will enhance the crust flavors, although some might not find the flavors entirely appealing if the preferment ferments too much. Also, it may be necessary to make other adjustments to the ingredients that go into the final mix to compensate for the higher acid levels, sugar depletion, etc.

The reason for my objectivity with Jerry's recipe is to be able to determine how much dough I would need to make a pizza of another size while still retaining the characteristics of Jerry's finished crust. For example, if I asked you or Jerry how to do that using volume measurements for an 18" pizza, how would you instruct me?

Peter

sourdough girl · « **Reply #65 on:** March 31, 2008, 05:52:15 PM »

Peter,
Thanks for the clarification of poolish v preferment. I always thought that preferment was an umbrella term for all types... poolish, sponge, biga, etc and didn't realize that there was a specific hydration for each. Since my preferment had not started to fall back, I'm guessing that I might have gotten even more flavor out of it had I had the luxury of a little more time.

I fully understand the need for you to convert this recipe to BPs because there is no way I could tell you the information you need based on what I always make for DH and me. When I discovered that the pizzas Jerry was making were larger than what my peel will hold, I used my KitchenCalc http://www.contractor-books.com/CI/KitchenCalc.htm to scale the recipe down by 2/3 and it worked perfectly. I now make 2 11" pizzas. Were we to have guests, I would use the full recipe... but as far as an 18"? No clue, I wouldn't be able to help you at all.

~sd

Pete-zza · « **Reply #66 on:** March 31, 2008, 06:32:08 PM »

sourdough girl,

I don't know how to do it by volumes either. However, if I were satisfied with the dough formulation I posted earlier, I could scale that up to the 18" size quite easily--or to any other size for that matter. However, if I were to be really serious about this kind of exercise, I would perhaps rework Jerry's recipe to use a classical poolish. I would do this simply because all of the formula water is used in the poolish and I could just use the same weight of flour for the poolish as for the water. Once the poolish fermentation time is established, I would then have to determine the amount of additional flour (by weight) to use as part of the final mix to achieve the dough condition that Jerry described. If the pizza turned out well, I could then come up with a new dough formulation based on baker's percents. I think it should then be possible to convert the flour for that version from weights to volumes now that I know how Jerry measures out his flour. Or else I could specify my own method of doing the conversions or use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/.

Peter

jweitzel24 · « **Reply #67 on:** April 02, 2008, 10:03:40 PM »

Just would like to start by saying that while this is my first post, it's definitely not my first pizza. I've made some really good ones, and some horrible ones (my fiancee can attest).

Anyway, I followed the recipe right on (except for a couple of high altitude changes, Colorado Springs 6500 ft) but I prepped it very differently.

Instead of Jerry's process with the poolish, I let my, ahem, bread maker (shhhhhhhh) handle everything. 1 1/3 cup of warm water mixed with the tbl of honey in first, 3+ cups of bread flour on top with indentions for my 1 1/2 tsp of kosher salt and 1 3/4 tsp yeast.

It came out of the bread maker pretty moist, but nothing a floured surface wouldn't fix. It's the perfect amount of dough for two 14" pies. My electric oven only goes to 500, but they came off the stone soooo perfectly. This were easily the pizzas I've ever made.

Thanks for the recipe, Jerry!

JerryMac · « **Reply #68 on:** April 07, 2008, 01:11:57 AM »

Listen,

It's all "Finger" and "Tongue" Maigc, It's Not "Real"

WestCountry · « **Reply #69 on:** April 21, 2008, 10:36:40 PM »

Hi Everyone,

Here's my shot at the JerryMac recipe. This pizza recipe was awesome. Better than my old recipe. THANKS Jerry, you are awesome!

I baked this up here in the Mile High City in a 550 degree oven on the pizza stone. (Interesting note - I didn't need to add more flour after the initial amount was measured into the mixer.... My guess is because of the high & dry altitude of Denver.)

Pizza was awesome - lots of air/bubble pockets - nice crispy chewy crust. Very easy to make and work with. Here's some pics...

-Chris

Mad_Ernie · « **Reply #70 on:** April 22, 2008, 10:01:06 AM »

Awesome pizza in those pictures!

Thanks for sharing!

JerryMac · « **Reply #71 on:** April 22, 2008, 12:28:31 PM »

WestCountry,

Great lookin Pie

Glad the dough worked out for ya

Mangia Bene

Jerry

Pete-zza · « **Reply #72 on:** April 22, 2008, 12:57:33 PM »

Chris,

That is a nice looking pie. I have been surprised at how many different looking pies have been made using Jerry's recipe. Did you depart from it in any way, for example, in terms of the ingredients, preparation methods, or pizza size?

Peter

WestCountry · « **Reply #73 on:** April 23, 2008, 12:15:22 AM »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the interest.
I stuck to the recipe for the whole thing (big deviation is Colorado altitude/climate). I used King Arthur Bread Flour throughout.

The poolish was exact per recipe. For the dough, I used the honey (vs. barley malt). I only needed the 1 1/2 cups of flour (I measured flour as JerryMac does above by scooping/shaking off excess).

The thing I found most interesting is I didn't have to add any flour (after the initial 1.5 cups) to the kitchen-aid mixer that was running. From the looks of what I had in the mixing bowl - it looked like it would clear the sides of bowl without the additional flour...and sure enough, it did! So I didn't add any more.

When I got it out of bowl it had a good balanced feel - didn't feel too wet nor dry. I anticipated it being very loose (high hydration) from reading this thread, but it felt "just right". My guess is that living in the high-altitude and dry air here in Colorado rapidly soaks up that moisture from the dough.

I produced two dough balls that made the ~14" pies (since that's a 16" stone in photo) with oven at 550 degrees.

I also don't prefer a huge outer crust around the edges (I think that's called cornicione?), so that why the crust edges seem kind of low - I shape it that way on purpose per my taste.

I did forget to spray or add EVOO to edges of the crust before cooking. Next time I will try that.

I cut (with scissor) all my pies on wire rack like shown (to avoid condensation underneath). In the pie above - its just fresh cherry tomatoes (that I pureed) and mixed with EVOO/spices, and fresh mozzarella cheese from Costco (BelGioso).

I will definitely be using this again since its better than my old recipe.

Thanks again, to you and Mad_Ernie and JerryMac for some nice comments!

Chris

briterian · « **Reply #74 on:** April 27, 2008, 02:33:12 PM »

Last night my wife declared this my best pizza yet. She said the crust was 'perfect in every way.' I've tried many recipes on this forum and I think I have one I'm going to stick with. She said it the best flavor,texture, and chew...and she's quite hard to please.

I baked it for 4 min 20 sec in my Bakers Pride M02t oven at 640 degrees. Thanks JerryMacDaddy

Brian

November · « **Reply #75 on:** April 27, 2008, 05:19:30 PM »

In hopes of either confirming or setting a standard for non-textbook volume-mass conversions, I'm looking around at popular dough formulas that specify ingredient amounts in volumetric terms, and where a manual attempt at converting the measurements to weights has already been made. This dough formula, mentioned in the initial post, was analyzed and converted by Peter (Pete-zza) based on information given by the author as to how he measured his flour. Peter's post can be found here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55496.html#msg55496

I wanted to see how close my analytics that went into the recent upgrade to the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator (http://tools.foodsim.com/) are compared to Peter's weighings. This was done with another dough formula recently with surprisingly similar numbers (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56374.html#msg56374). For easy reference, I'll reiterate Peter's manually measured and calculated hydration for this dough formula: 66.242%. Using the M-VCC, with the "method of measurement" set at Dip + Shake (per the author's description), these are the weights:

Poolish
219.3464   (1.5 c)   King Arthur Bread Flour
315.4502   (1.1/3 c)   water

Remaining
258.7018   (1.75 c)   King Arthur Bread Flour (per sourdough girl using 100+% of the flour)

The hydration from such values comes to: 65.9871% That's only off by 0.3848% from Peter's hydration. Changing the depth of the measuring cup by just 0.5 cm accounts for a difference of more than 8.5 times that. So it's safe to say it's within the margin of "cup-depth" error. {If water from honey (3.8880 g) is included, the hydration becomes: 66.8004%.} From this I conclude that once again, the method of measurement's influence on the weight of the ingredient has been adequately represented by the tool. I am satisfied with the approximation if Peter is; and if Peter is satisfied, maybe he won't have to keep running to his measuring cups and scale to determine the weight of everyone's flour when they present their dough formula volumetrically.

- red.november

Pete-zza · « **Reply #76 on:** April 27, 2008, 08:29:16 PM »

November,

I'll always be happy being off by less than a half of a percent on the hydration. When I did the original volume measurements of flour, I tried not to be too self-conscious as I did it and to do it casually as I imagined Jerry would do it. I also knew that I would be able to make adjustments in the final mix because Jerry said that the dough should pull away from the sides of the bowl yet stick to the bowl in the middle. That was an important visual cue for me.

Using your tool should be a big help in the future. I will still have to ask the author of a recipe recited volumetrically how the flour and water were measured out--unless that information is provided up front--but at least I won't have to go to my measuring cups, spoons and scale.

Peter

2stone · « **Reply #77 on:** April 30, 2008, 06:52:39 PM »

OK Jerry,

I had to give your recipe a shot, the only thing I changed was the honey
to brown sugar. Otherwise everything was pretty much the same give or take
a few min here and there!
Your crust was excellent, it had a nice flavor and with the high hydration it was
easy to stretch out. The bottom baked up nicer than normal, and had a good texture to it.

All in all a recipe I would recommend for a one day 2stone bake.

temperature was 750 and the bake time was about 3 min.
Definitely better than any one day bake I have done so far.

willard

JerryMac · « **Reply #78 on:** May 01, 2008, 10:53:22 AM »

Willard,

Great lookin pies

Still savin my nickles for the oven

Mangia Bene

Jerry

DenaliPete · « **Reply #79 on:** May 06, 2008, 07:09:32 AM »

Drawn to the attention that this topic had been getting, I decided to give this recipe a shot myself.

I didn't have to add much additional flour at all and was quite impressed with the ease of stretch with this dough, as my normal recipe requires more TLC for a good stretch.

The only place I deviated was letting the dough rise 2 hours in a metal bowl rather than the recommended 1.5 hours, and honestly it was simply an oversight on my part.

On the whole I was very impressed with the results. Because my stone and peel are on the smaller side I found that I had to roll the crust up a little bit to make it fit (which speaks to the fine stretching ability of this dough), which suited my fancy just fine. But the bottom was nice and thin with a delicious crust.

Sorry guys, I would take a picture and post it, but there just isn't anything left to photograph. I have the second ball of dough in the fridge now and will snap some pics of that tomorrow.

I think this recipe is very comparable to mine, and I very much appreciate that this allows for same day baking. I believe I will toy around with the recipe a little bit for my own sake, but I was very impressed Jerry.