Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)

[jkandell]

I understand Very well the reasons for people using scales and mathematics in their prep of dough and I hope people can understand the reasons why myself and many others have been preparing dough "Our" way for hundreds of years even before scales were affordable to the common man and that somehow, at least I feel that maybee we are part of the ancient methods of making dough 

I recently bought a $16 scale after baking sourdough bread by cups for a long time.  I had expected this to make my recipes more standardized, especially when following books.  Surprisingly, I think I do more adjustment with cooking by weight than I ever did by volume!  Not sure why this is, perhaps it has to do with different types of flour, and different levels of humidity, etc.  To me weight versus volume is six of one or half a dozen of the other.  No matter what method you use you have to end up relying on "feel" anyway.

[JerryMac]

jkandell,

Go figure HuH 

Mangia Bene 

Jerry

[abatardi]

To me weight versus volume is six of one or half a dozen of the other.  No matter what method you use you have to end up relying on "feel" anyway.

That's fine if you know what the right "feel" should be... it is relative and not something easily transferrable to another person without having direct contact and experience (you end up having to rely on things like "add flour until dough is wet and tacky but not sticky"  ).  Absolute measurements by weight are easier to get consistent results and recommended and used by almost all professional bakers (hence baker's percent). 

- aba

[sourdough girl]

aba,
Nothing personal, but I, for one, am not a professional baker.  They need to get consistent results to produce a product today that is the same (as much as is possible) as yesterday's.  That's the way to keep customers coming back... so their bakeries can stay in business. 

In a home setting, I really prefer the nuances of "playing with my food"!  I HAVE learned what that "feel" is... and I really think we all should!  I HAVE used Baker's Percents when I'm working to recreate a particular type, but I pay attention (and take copious notes) to the "feel" as well.

On the other end of the spectrum are the professional CHEFS who, when testing a steak to see if it's done, DON'T use a mechanical device (thermometer), but instead rely on "feel"... they poke it with a finger to see if it "yields" properly!  I don't have that feel (and don't want to take the chance of ruining a great piece of beef by overcooking it), so I DO resort to a thermometer, poked in the side of the steak.

Bottom line for me is that there is a place for both methods... and we will all just have to agree to disagree.

Is it just me or does this thread have an unusual number of first or low time posters raving about the recipe?   

- aba

Still not sure what you meant by the comment above... don't want to speak for Jerry, but I would sure like to know!  Care to 'splain?  Again, nothing personal, just really don't understand the correlation....         

~sd

[Pete-zza]

I think what often gets lost in this discussion is the purpose of using each method. In my case, I use weights and baker's percents most of the time because I am trying to perfect or improve upon dough formulations and, to the extent I am able to do so, to pass on what I have done to others to try out and, hopefully, be able to achieve the same results I did with a minimum of effort. This is all done on my part from behind a keyboard and not in person, where I would be able to demonstrate things more easily and quickly than I can do using only words and photos, including what a dough should feel like and how to tweak the formulation if necessary.

I have also discovered that I can analyze dough recipes better where weights of flour are used rather than volumes. The other day, I was trying to help another member who was having problems with his dough for a pan pizza. To better understand what he was doing, I started by converting his dough recipe from volumes to weights and baker's percents. When I told the member what dough batch weight I came up with, he provided information that told me that I was off by about 7 ounces, or almost 19% (it turned out that the member had a scale after all). If the member had told me exactly how he measured out his flour, I could have at least gone into my kitchen and weighed out the flour as measured out in the manner specified by the member. I would prefer that people who use volume measurements for flour and who want to tell others how to reproduce their recipes or to analyze them say how they measured out their flour. However, as simple as that request is, I have learned not to expect people to be more specific on the way they measure out flour. Again, it comes down to the reason why one method is used as opposed to another, and not whether one method is better than another.

Peter

[sourdough girl]

Peter,
I understand your reasoning completely and also understand that for you, the pizza guru, to be able to help people who ask for it, Baker's Percents are a must.  And it seems to me that you spend a lot of "ink" defending/explaining one side or the other.  Or both.

That said, I also get the distinct feeling (having read many MANY threads on these boards!) that some people (NOT you!) feel that recipes like Jerry's have no place here.  I guess that's why I feel a need to defend the "underdog" who doesn't conform.        After all, the logo above says "Pizzamaking.com" NOT "pizzamakingbybaker'spercents.com"      It seems that quite often, when recipes like Jerry's are posted, someone feels the need to jump in and tell them that they should be using Baker's Percents so that the rest of the population, both members and guests, can make the recipe. 

I also agree that it would make it easier to replicate a dough using volume measurements if the poster would explain their method.  I use the "stir, spoon and sweep" method and so sometimes need to add more flour, just like I did when I made this recipe a few weeks ago. 

If someone likes the looks of the photos they see but don't feel comfortable making a recipe with old-fashioned volume measurements, perhaps they should learn the conversion steps, like you have.  And, of course, they can always query the poster for clarification.  But I see no reason for anyone to get "soap-box-y" about the dubious NECESSITY of Baker's Percents.  If you don't like the recipe as posted, go find another one!  Lord knows, there are PLENTY on this site!      

~sd

[abatardi]

I think Pete said it best as always.  And as you said consistent results keep customers coming back.  I don't know why one would not strive for creating a consistently good product in their own kitchen, especially when they are in the mood for good pizza and aren't sure what they are going to get if they go by 'feel' alone - light airy crust or dense and chewy, because they may not be experienced enough yet to "feel" the same thing every time.  Also if you stick to weight measurements, you can change small things in the formula to see what happens in the end result.  If you had two similarly skilled people, one using weights and one using feel and volumes, and they were both striving at the same end result, I don't see how anyone could argue that the person doing it by feel would get there in less attempts.  Either way, feel comes with experience no matter which way you work... If you took away my scale I am confident I could make an identical pizza dough because I've done it so many times and know what the dough should look like and what it should 'feel' like.  Most people come to this board to learn how to make pizza, and how to reproduce something they see in pictures as closely as possible.  This cannot be done by the novice baker by feel alone.  They might luck out once or twice but the consistency will not be there and sooner or later they will be wondering what happened to make their latest batch turn out like crap ('no such thing as too much yeast with my method' - ha!).  

- aba

[sourdough girl]

aba,
did you read the post of mine that is just above your last?  I thought not... I think we were typing at the same time.

Let me say this as succinctly and nicely as possible:

This recipe was written in volume measurements because Jerry likes it that way.  He has stated reasons for his preference.  We don't need any more explanations of why you think BPs are better.  You will never convert us VM adherents, so you should just leave the pulpit.  You're preaching in the wrong church.      

I have used this recipe of Jerry's twice now, the second time reduced by 1/3 because the recipe is too big for just DH and me, and both times it turned out WONDERFULLY! 

You could save yourself a lot of time typing (especially making seemingly backhanded comments which you have not as yet explained even though asked) if you would just avoid VM recipes since you have made it perfectly clear that you don't like them.  Then poor Peter wouldn't have to jump in with HIS explanations...    and you're right, aba, Peter DID say it best, as always...

Again, it comes down to the reason why one method is used as opposed to another, and not whether one method is better than another.

Peter

Since this is an open forum called pizzamaking.com, any recipe should be welcome, not just those in BPs.  Or am I wrong?   

~sd

[abatardi]

I guess it's like trying to argue politics... in the end, some people are still Bush supporters.    To each his own. 

- aba

[sourdough girl]

aba, you are exactly correct!  Which is why, in reply #23, I suggested that we all just agree to disagree...

(And you DON'T want to get me started on Bush...  he, personally, sent my husband to Iraq.)          

~sd

[JerryMac]

abatardi,

I'm sorry, I have really tried to stay out of this one, But 

"consistent results keep customers coming back"

I'm sorry, but I don't run a Pizza Joint, DO YOU 

I cook for Friends and Family     Do You 

"I don't know why one would not strive for creating a consistently good product"

I make Pizza, Not "products", Do You 

"If you took away my scale I am confident I could make an identical pizza dough"      If you were "Confident", you wouldn't have to brag about it 

 "('no such thing as too much yeast with my method' - ha!)." Where did you get that Crap 

abatardi, Know what I wish you and me could have,  A good old fashioned "Bobby Flay" "Pizza Throwdown" 

You Got The Guts 

I'm READY 

Jerry 

 

[sourdough girl]

OH, yeah!
Bobby Flay!!

Sign me up as one of the judges!!  I'll be impartial, I PROMISE!! 
(Did you ever notice on those throwdowns that the judges are all local??.... for a REASON!!  If he's taking on a local food icon, the judges should NOT be impartial...they should KNOW the local cuisine!  If they're stacked against Bobby, well, that's what he asked for!)

Hang onto your toques    here we go....               

~sd

[abatardi]

Remember, I don't do "#'s" 

Too Much Yeast    Not if you make it "My" way 

Mangia Bene 

Jerry

;-)

Ha!  I'd even put money on that.  Tax time coming up and I could use the extra $$$.  :-)

- aba

[JerryMac]

Sourdough Girl,

NO, You Can Not Be A Judge    You Would Not Be Impartial 

Tell Ya what though, I'll do this is in Aba's back yard so He'll have all the Judging Advantages 

And I'll Still "Whup His Butt" 

Whoooooooooooo 

Jerry

[JerryMac]

abatardi,

You Have, As of Yet, Refused to Explain the following comment you made in this thread, to our "first or low time posters" 

"Is it just me or does this thread have an unusual number of first or low time posters raving about the recipe?" 

Please, as I am sure that you will agree, that They (first or low time posters), would "Really" love Your Explanation, as to Exactly What You Meant   

Thanks for your Timely Response 

Jerry

[abatardi]

Thought it was pretty self-explanatory.

/end thread

- aba

[JerryMac]

Aba,

Ever heard the old saying, "Thought Thought, But He Thought Wrong" 

You "Still" haven't "Explained"

Jerry

[abatardi]

/end thread

[JerryMac]

abatardi,

Sorry, You can't end "MY Thread" 

Jerry

[Bryan S]

abatardi,

Sorry, You can't end "MY Thread" 

Jerry

He has a point.