Author Topic: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)  (Read 64696 times)

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Offline JerryMac

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #120 on: April 23, 2009, 11:49:02 PM »
Hey Guys,

I am soooooooooo glad this thread has inspired sooooooooo  many people to think about making such great Pizza !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mangia Bene All  :chef:
Jerry

PS for anybody concerned, I'm still makin my dough this way and doubt that I will ever change it !!!!   I'm "Satisfied", and what more can you ask from Pizza ?????
 


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #121 on: April 24, 2009, 08:24:22 AM »
It's a great recipe, Favoloso! It's so good I make mine with a big "M" on them in tribute. If I had the 16" stone it would have said "JERRYMAC ROCKS"., but at 12" I could only fit the "M".

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg72813.html#msg72813
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #122 on: April 26, 2009, 01:34:18 AM »
Ronzo, what type of oven arrangement did you have when you made those pies?

Same oven arrangement I have for every other pizza I make. Electric oven, 500 degrees, quarry tiles near the top of the oven, cooked until the cheese began to brown on peaks. I get browning on the crust for other recipes.

I think I just screwed this attempt up... the more time that passes, the more I'm convinced of that.
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parallei

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2009, 11:23:45 AM »
This thread inspired me to try JerryMac's one day dough again.  You Da Man, Jerry!  I'm sending the recipe and how to photo's/instructions to a friend who wants to give it a try.  Bellow is a 10-inch JerryMac from last night...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 12:18:11 PM by Steve »

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #124 on: May 18, 2009, 01:46:32 PM »

Put dough into an oiled bowl, cover with plastic and let rise 1 1/2 Hrs.
at room temp.

Turn dough out onto lightly oiled surface, divide into 2 balls.

Transfer balls to lightly floured surface, dust lightly with flour,
cover with plastic and let rise 1 1/2 Hrs.

Jerry, I meant to ask you something on this stage. After first 1.5 hr rest as ball you have quite a lot of billowy rise. Peter says he punches down and re-balls, I have been punching down, but in reviewing your original recipe above you don't mention punching down at all. It sounds like you are  just re-balling here, so can you clarify?

Sorry if this has already been addressed, I can't seem to find it.
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline JerryMac

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #125 on: May 25, 2009, 09:52:48 PM »
pizzastriver,

I don't "Punch Down" my dough, I try at all times too keep from "Degassing" the dough too much   >:(

I simply roll it out of the bowl, devide it in half and make two balls, always being as gentle as possible  ;D

Thanks,

Mangia Bene  :chef:
Jerry

Offline pizza eater

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2009, 01:28:07 AM »
This was the first pizza i have ever made. Thanks Jerry for the recipe, it was great.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 01:31:07 AM by pizza eater »

Offline JerryMac

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2009, 09:21:17 PM »
pizza eater,

Great lookin Pie  ;) Glad you liked the dough  ;D

Mangia Bene  :chef:
Jerry

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2009, 08:28:13 AM »
pizzastriver,

I don't "Punch Down" my dough, I try at all times too keep from "Degassing" the dough too much   >:(

I simply roll it out of the bowl, devide it in half and make two balls, always being as gentle as possible  ;D

Thanks,

Mangia Bene  :chef:
Jerry

Hmmm. With the yeast level as high as it is I would venture you could use the ball for a friendly catch in the yard for 10 minutes, still having enough bubbles to hold its own with a fine champagne. ( lol )

I mean after the first 1.5 hr rise it's a near beach ball! I can't see not degassing and reshaping there. After the second rise I'm gentle, maybe you thought I meant there (?), but I can't imagine how voluminous it would be by then without the first deflation.

Anyway, hope all is well with you and Jerri!  ;D

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #129 on: June 14, 2009, 02:58:06 PM »
Hmmm. With the yeast level as high as it is I would venture you could use the ball for a friendly catch in the yard for 10 minutes, still having enough bubbles to hold its own with a fine champagne. ( lol )

I mean after the first 1.5 hr rise it's a near beach ball! I can't see not degassing and reshaping there. After the second rise I'm gentle, maybe you thought I meant there (?), but I can't imagine how voluminous it would be by then without the first deflation.

Anyway, hope all is well with you and Jerri!  ;D

Jim,
I have made Jerry's dough, like, a BAZILLION times, (well, that might be a BIT of hyperbole!) and I have never punched it down after its huge first rise.  I just roll it out of the bowl onto a lightly oiled plastic "cutting board" sheet (which does degas it a little bit), portion it with a bench knife and gently ball it up.  I love that light, airy crust, so I figured that punching down wasn't necessary.  But, if you still get results you're pleased with after punching it down, I guess there's no harm done!  My question is:  have you tried it both ways?  And if you have, what was the end result with and without punch down?

~sd
Never trust a skinny cook!


Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2009, 08:43:34 AM »
Jim,
I have made Jerry's dough, like, a BAZILLION times...

I was just in Brazil and I made it there, so you could say I too have made it on "Brazilian Time".  ;D


Quote
My question is:  have you tried it both ways?  And if you have, what was the end result with and without punch down?

A good question, and sadly a hard one for me to answer, lol. I know in recent times I punched down, but I wonder if I was more gentle in first time around. (ie. Who's protocol was I reading at that exact step) If I wasn't such a war torn old reprobate I'd surely recall better.

Yeah I do get good results, loads of bubbles, must be the abundance of air that can only come from hand kneading. :-) Maybe one day soon I'll do a side by side comparison test and report back. Today I have to knead 10 pounds of dough in five 2 pound batches, so just not now, ...but soon!


"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2009, 02:45:51 PM »
SD girl,

     Well I awoke today at 6AM and made a batch of 3 Mac pies for lunch today. This after 16 Gluten boys yesterday. Man are my arms tired! I did it easy, no punch, and yeah you're right it's not that big. They are harder to stretch as they are more wrinkly that way, but once it starts to stretch it's fine. They were great, and I do like them without the punch down better. This is also how I did it to begin with, I remember now. Either way works, just for the record, but this is airier.

     I had the daughter of a friend here who is 14. She said "This pizza reminds me of Domino's, but way better". I know what she means in the American style sense, and it's great to beat Domino's on a same day dough! Hat's off again to Jerry, best same day dough bar-none.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

Offline JerryMac

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2009, 11:44:38 PM »
NY pizzastriver,

Thanks for the concenrn  ;) Jerri is doing WELL  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Yeast, Yeast, Yeast !!!!!  What the hell is the "Phobia" some of the people on this forum have about "Yeast"  ??? ??? ??? ???

My "Recipe" uses "2 tsp" of yeast, the standard amount used in most "Bread" recipes !!!!!!!!!

Remember, mine is a one day dough !!!!!!!!

Please People, remember, use Yeast correctly and it is your Friend  !!!!!!!!

No one would ever consider using "2 tsp" of Yeast in a long ferment dough !!!!!!!!!!!

Ramember, "Yeast is Your Friend", if used correctly  :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Mangia Bene  :chef:
Jerry

Offline Bistro

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #133 on: December 10, 2009, 11:00:12 PM »
Jerry
Who would have ever guessed I would have started a thread this long just by asking you to post your newest dough formula. Sounds like it has turned out quite nicely.
PS some of us just read and don't post because the ? has nearly always been answered previouly. LOL
Hope your doing well

Offline Gags

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2010, 12:01:25 AM »
Thank you all for posting your insights and pies!  I'm still very much a novice, so your lessons are much appreciated.  I keep coming back to this recipe, not only for its great taste, but also for its ease of kneading & shaping.  JerryMac, Pete, et al, perhaps I could ask for your advice again?

My primary goal at this point is to get more browning and a more flavorful crust
 
Ingredients:
Flour:    KASL
Cheese: First Street Gold, Feather Shredded, Part Skim, Low Moisture Mozzarella I buy at Smart & Final (great taste!)
Sauce:  My own seasoned "San Marzano" brand (white and purple can) and another pie with plain 6-in-1
Other:  honey, bottled water, SAF IDY, extra virgin olive oil, 1tsp table salt

Steps:

1) Mixed preferment according to directions, let sit for about 3 hours in ~70F room. 
2) Mixed remaining ingredients in bowl, but mistakenly added remaining 1.5c flour all at once.
3) Since I don't have a stand mixer (yet), I used a wooden spoon to mix slowly for about 5 mins.  I saw the ball forming and pulling away from the sides.  At this point, I took out of bowl and put on floured bench.
4) Using sparse amounts of flour on the board, I kneaded for about 15 minutes by hand.
5) I divided into 2 equal portions and let them rest in oiled, covered bowls for 90mins at room temp.
6) Put in fridge for 24 hours.
7) Removed from fridge, sat for about 3 hours at room temp, still in covered bowls.
8. Started oven with 14" stone on bottom rack, oven came to 550F in about 20 mins, then continued to heat for about 1 hour, 10 mins at 550F.
9) I also had a cookie sheet on another rack, about 6" above the stone, to reflect heat down.
10 )Dressed skin on cornmeal dusted peel to form a 12" pie.  Didn't oil skin or crust prior to dressing with sauce / cheese.
11) Didn't use enough cornmeal and it snagged as it was going on the stone, hence the odd shape of Pie 1.
12) Let stone recover for about 10-15mins and repeated with Pie 2.

Observations:
- The dough is easy to manage, but very loose and is hard to throw without getting too thin.
- Great taste overall and pie 1 had more crust flavor, I'm fairly certain that this was due to fresh, hot stone browning it a bit more than Pie 2.
- I also varied sauce from Pie 1 to Pie 2...from my seasoned San Marzano blend to straight 6-in-1 (finally found a store that had it!)
- The center crust was too thin on Pie 1.
- The cheese was browning too fast and the crust couldn't keep up.
- The cheese, no matter how little I use, tends to form a solid layer and may hold in too much sauce moisture?
- The dough was great while hot, but then get very leathery.


Could you please offer your thoughts on these questions and offer any other suggestions?
 
a) Which of the two would yield a browner crust - honey or malt syrup?
b) Do you think I overkneaded the dough and that's why it was tough when cooled a bit?
c) Is anyone able to throw this dough, or should I just keep it low and let the board support some of its weight?
d) The dough didn't rise much on the stone...could it be my IDY is getting too old (6 months, stored in freezer), I shouldn't have divided it, or I shouldn't have stored dough for 24 hours and yeast was exhausted?
e) Should I go with a lower temp to let the crust brown more? (I'll also try removing my upper heat reflector cookie sheet.)
f)  How long should I let the stone recover?

Again, a great recipe - Thanks much!  Just trying to chase that "perfect" pie!!  LOL!! --Ryan
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 12:42:21 AM by Gags »
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Offline scott123

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2010, 11:53:47 AM »
Gags,

This is a same day dough, not an overnight one.  From what I can tell, by refrigerating the dough overnight you fermented it too much. Some fermentation is a good thing, but too much fermentation creates an excess of acid. Acid prevents browning.

As far as your other questions go:

a) Which of the two would yield a browner crust - honey or malt syrup?

Honey has a greater percentage of fructose- fructose browns better than other sugars- so the Honey would brown better.

b) Do you think I overkneaded the dough and that's why it was tough when cooled a bit?

There's a lot of different opinions on proper kneading times, but, from the research that I've done, I firmly believe that long cool rises (overnight refrigeration) have the same impact on gluten as medium kneading, so a long cool rise + regular kneading is counterproductive. If I know I'm going to refrigerate the dough overnight, I'll scale back the kneading considerably.

So, yes, i do feel that you overkneaded your dough, but... that's not necessarily why the crust was tough. It could have played a part, but there are a host of other reasons that could be the culprit as well.

d) The dough didn't rise much on the stone...could it be my IDY is getting too old (6 months, stored in freezer), I shouldn't have divided it, or I shouldn't have stored dough for 24 hours and yeast was exhausted?

There's lot of opinions on yeast storage as well, but, from my research on the subject, extended freezing is highly detrimental.  Ideally, you shouldn't store yeast at all. If you have to store it, I'd go with the fridge. Jarred yeast is also better than packets.

e) Should I go with a lower temp to let the crust brown more? (I'll also try removing my upper heat reflector cookie sheet.)

A lower temp will give you less oven spring which will translate into an even tougher crust. I would focus on the overfermentation issue and not mess too much with your baking setup- for now.

f)  How long should I let the stone recover?

A thick enough stone should require no recovery time.  How thick is your stone? It would help us gauge the temperature of your stone if you took pictures of the bottom of the crusts. Next time, do a bottom crust shot (for both pies)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 12:06:31 PM by scott123 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2010, 02:29:29 PM »
Ryan,

I agree with scott123 that by changing the rules of fermentation as you did, by using a combination of room temperature prefermentation, a period of room temperature fermentation of the finished dough, and a long period of cold fermentation, you penalized your results in terms of crust coloration and texture. The improved crust flavor was due to the substantial amount of flavor contributing fermentation byproducts. However, although I am not a chemist, I believe the reduced crust coloration was not due solely to the below-average pH of the finished dough but a combination of below-average pH and low residual sugar levels in the dough at the time of baking. According to Professor Raymond Calvel, in his book The Taste of Bread, at page 57:

"...in the final analysis the pH is related to the level of residual sugars present in the patons just before baking. These residual sugars are the remainder of those that fed dough fermentation, and they fulfill important functions during the baking process. The level at which they are present plays an important role in determining the extent of oven spring during the first moments of baking. They also contribute to the Maillard reaction and caramelization phenomenon that produce crust coloration.
   Generally a below-average pH coincides with a lack of residual sugars, which translates into a deficiency in oven spring. This problem is evidenced by a slight decrease in loaf volume and in the end by a lack of crust coloration accompanied by excessive crust thickness. The bread will also exhibit a significant lack of aroma, the crust will have less taste, and the crumb will be slightly less flavorful."

Professor Calvel was speaking in relation to bread dough--and one without any sugar--but I believe the pH-residual sugar relationship and its effect on final results applies with equal vigor to pizza dough. I also know from substantial experience making cold fermented doughs with windows of from a few days to as much as 23 days, and without any sugar whatsoever in the dough, that it is possible to get very good crust coloration even at low pH levels. If you scan the photos at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html, you will see what I mean.

On the matter of honey versus barley malt syrup, I have found that honey works well in pizza doughs, including those that have very short room temperature fermentations, and contributes nicely to crust coloration, because of the simple sugars that are more readily available as food for the yeast than, say, table sugar (sucrose), which requires a time consuming conversion to simple sugars. A good example of the effects of honey on crust coloration can be seen at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. If the honey is a dark honey (I used a dark Texas wildflower honey), it should also yield a slightly darker crumb. However, barley malt syrup, which is very dark, even darker than most honeys I have seen, can have a pronounced effect of crust/crumb coloration. I believe that you can see that effect at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40413.html#msg40413. Compare the color in the crumb of the pizza shown at Reply 56 with the color of the crumb of my JerryMac pizza (using the same Texas honey) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg55855.html#msg55855.

I agree with scott123 that fresh yeast is perhaps better than yeast stored in the freezer, but I do not believe that that was a material factor in your results. I routinely store my dry yeast in the freezer, and have been doing so for many years, without any ill effects that I can determine.

When I first attempted JerryMac's dough recipe, I concluded that the hydration of the final dough was around 68%. Unless you use a lot of bench flour, such a dough will be difficult to toss and spin, as I noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg55855.html#msg55855. No doubt your excessive fermentation also contributed to the difficulty in handling the dough you made.

I think that you will find that if you follow JerryMac's instructions as he gave them you should get improved results. It is possible to modify JerryMac's dough recipe to make a cold fermented version of his recipe, but that entails a rather dramatic deconstruction and reconstruction of the recipe. You can see an example of how this can be done, in the context of a sponge preferment, using a version of JerryMac's recipe, at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 05:50:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Gags

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2010, 10:33:56 PM »
Gents,

Thank you much for the quick feedback and guidance!

On the yeast, I'll get a fresh package of the SAF IDY, but I might also give my current yeast one more try, just to limit the number of variables as I'll follow the same-day baking guidance.

On shaping, I now remember reading Pete's post about how the high hydration level made it somewhat difficult to handle.  (Also impressed with your ability to reference so many threads in your responses. You must be a lawyer!!)

I'll stick with the honey and note coloration as well as to see how properly fed yeast behaves and the effect on the crust texture.

Finally, I'll post up the pix of my next experiments!



Some side notes...

I mentioned that I finally found 6-in-1 tomatoes (available at Giuliano's deli in Gardena, CA).  I really like the flavor when compared to my seasoned (heavy on the oregano, honey, and garlic powder) sauce.  The 6-in-1 has such a clean flavor!

Lastly, I picked up some fire brick today - is it possible to use these in lieu of the smallish pizza stone I currently use? 

I see on the forum where people use these as stone walls inside their home ovens.  I was thinking of using these as my deck, so I could make a bigger pie and also not have to be so precise when loading.  Think its okay to cook right on these?



« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 11:42:26 PM by Gags »
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Offline scott123

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2010, 01:38:38 AM »
Ooooooh, fire brick. Very nice.

Those should work beautifully for pizza.  What's the thickness of your current stone? 1/2"? 3/4"? If it's 1/2, then you should see a pretty dramatic improvement. If it's 3/4... it won't be a huge difference, but you will see an improvement. I was just brushing up on the technical specs of fire brick vs baking stones tonight.  Baking stones tend to have better conductivity, but fire brick has all that beautiful thermal mass.

Because of it's lower conductivity, fire brick will take longer to pre-heat, but once it's pre-heated, it will hold it's heat for a while (it should resolve your recovery concerns). Although an hour and a half might be a little overkill for a 3/4" stone, I'm certain you're going to need it for the brick.  How concerned are you by large utility bills?  :) The first time you bake with the brick, you might want to go with 1 hour 45, see how it goes, and then dial it back.

550 is the absolute highest your oven will go, right?  ;)

Low alumina firebrick (the kind you have) tends to be fairly gritty and rough, so I like to hit up the baking side with a little coarse sandpaper. After I do that, I wash them vigorously with clean water, let them dry, arrange them in the oven and then bring them up to temp extremely slowly. Bakingstone.com has a pretty good guide for curing new stones.

Are all those bricks yours?  If you have enough, you definitely want to go with two shelves (hearth and ceiling).  You might have to play around with the height of the ceiling, but I would go with 10-12".  Make sure you're comfortable launching and retrieving pies in whatever vertical space you create, though.  Arrange the stones so that they are flush with each other and flat.  I used folded up aluminum foil to prop up some bricks that were a bit low. A level helps. Keep an eye on your oven shelf and make sure the weight isn't stressing it/making it sag. I don't think you'll have a problem with one layer, but it's still something to be aware of.  A fire brick deck can add up in weight.

I had to cut my bricks in order to form them into a 16" deck (to fit my 17" deep oven). Since I didn't have equipment myself, I had the store where I bought the bricks cut them for me. It cost more for the cutting than it did for the bricks. Hopefully your oven will be a little more accommodating.

According to Professor Raymond Calvel, in his book The Taste of Bread, at page 57:

"...in the final analysis the pH is related to the level of residual sugars present in the patons just before baking. These residual sugars are the remainder of those that fed dough fermentation, and they fulfill important functions during the baking process. The level at which they are present plays an important role in determining the extent of oven spring during the first moments of baking. They also contribute to the Maillard reaction and caramelization phenomenon that produce crust coloration.
   Generally a below-average pH coincides with a lack of residual sugars, which translates into a deficiency in oven spring. This problem is evidenced by a slight decrease in loaf volume and in the end by a lack of crust coloration accompanied by excessive crust thickness. The bread will also exhibit a significant lack of aroma, the crust will have less taste, and the crumb will be slightly less flavorful."

Peter, I could be wrong about this, but I've always perceived there to be two different processes running synchronously yet somewhat independently in dough- yeast activity and amylase activity.  The amylase activity seems to do it's thing the moment water enters the picture, and, (I think) continues to do it's thing somewhat consistently through changes in temperature (ie refrigeration). The yeast, on the other, slows down as the temperature drops.  That's the beauty of cold fermentation- you're handicapping the yeast while the amylase is creating all that delicious and maillard friendly sugar.

Acid, specifically carbonic acid, is a byproduct of yeast activity.  In theory, I would think one could do a fairly warm fast ferment that produces a dough with the same pH as a dough cold/slow fermented for a far longer time, but, because of all that amylase activity during the cold ferment, the residual sugar would greater.  Same pH different levels of sugar.

Maybe.  I feel very confident talking thermodynamics, and, to an extent rheology, but microbiology and enzymes, not so much. For a product with such few ingredients (bread) it's mind boggling how complicated it is.

Regarding amylase, your post in another thread about autolyses really opened my eyes.  I was, up until today, in the erroneous autolyse includes yeast camp. I'm not sure where I picked that up.  Since an autolyse is just flour and water, might that give the amalyse activity a bit of a head start?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 02:58:05 AM by scott123 »

Offline Gags

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Re: Latest Dough Recipe, By Request :)
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2010, 10:57:16 AM »
Scott,

Thanks for the info on the brick - that answers my questions!  My current stone is about 5/8" thick, I'm looking for both a larger deck and better recovery, so hopefully the 1.5" thick brick'll do the trick. I was also concerned with the rough surface of them, so I'll knock them down a bit before use.  As they were less than $1 each, I bought 20 of them - as you said, to create both a deck and ceiling (and maybe even a lip around the sides and back of the deck).  And yah, I know from the utility bill the month's in which I'm really trying to dial in my pizza! 

I'm eager to see Pete's response to your question.  If I recall correctly, I tried using this same-day dough once before and, while it looked better, it lacked the flavor of the overnight cold dough....that's why I was trying to cold ferment it.

I'll try out the bricks and post pix...

Thanks!

"I'd trade it all for just a little bit more"


 

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