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Offline motownpizzaguy

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Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« on: October 31, 2007, 01:00:05 PM »
Hello all,
I posted quite awhile ago on pizzamaking when I was first going to open a pizzeria. Personal issues came up and I had to put my plans on hold, but I am again in the process of hopefully leasing a space to start my dream.  I am trying for a thin crust(not cracker thin), I'd like to emulate the N.Y. elites and plan to feature local products so something like what a lot of people call California style(even though I'm in Detroit!)  I've read what Jeff Varasano thinks and I tend to agree with him that many such pies tend not to care much about the crust but I want something worthy of the excellent products that these local farmers grow!  Sorry to get on my soapbox there!  But in using the Lehmann calculator and modifying it with some of Jeff's techniques I've developed a recipe that I tested with the ovens from the shop that I'm prospectively going to take the lease over on.  The ovens are Blodgett deck ovens, one ranges around 600 degrees, one seems to go 570.  I know thats not a small difference but I'm hoping I can get a guy to regulate them both at 600.  So on to my recipe, using 75% KA a-p flour, 25% Caputo '00':
100% Flour(937g)
64% H2o at 40 degrees(600g)
.2% IDY
1.5% morton kosher salt
1.5% oil
Mixed (ala Varasano, sort of) 75% of the flour blend with yeast, salt, and all of the water, first brought it together with spoon, then 2 minutes on lowest setting of kitchen aid mixer.  Rest for 5 minutes, then mixed 5 more minutes, at this point I gradually added the rest of the flour over the course of 2 more minutes.  I had to mix a bit with my hand to fully incorporate the flour, then mixed in the oil by hand to keep it from sliding around in the bowl.  Back in the mixer for 1 minute, it was still very wet so I added about 40g more of flour.  Kneaded it by hand for 1 minute, then divided and stored them in stacking metal cans. I put them in the fridge with the lids slightly ajar to allow them to cool for 1/2 hour.  Rested for 2 days in the fridge, then took them out three hours before baking(my apartment is kind of chilly, 68 degrees).  Took them to the restaurant and baked them off, they're quite loose so I barely had to spread them.  They had a nice flavor and some bubbling in the cornicione but still were very chewy and just slightly hard.  I want crisp on the outside but still very tender, and I'm hoping for less chewiness.  Any ideas? You guys always amaze me with your breadth and depth of dough knowledge, so let me know if there is info I left out or something I'm not thinking of.  Is this even possible in the ovens I described?  I've had good pizza from deck ovens but its few and far between around here.  How do I do it?!  Thanks!  :)

Dave


Offline scott r

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2007, 01:18:51 PM »
Dave, I recently did a pizza consulting gig where I helped a shop hone their recipes and techniques. When I got there I found that the ovens were not firing up to spec. Their ovens were easily re calibrated and even modified with new thermostats to achieve over 700 degrees even though the original Bakers Pride specs say that the maximum temp is 650.  All you need to do is call your local restaurant supply shop that sells used ovens and they should have a competent tech that can come in and get your ovens firing properly.  Good luck with your shop!

Offline pcampbell

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2007, 01:19:26 PM »
My recipe is not very similar to yours so comparison might be moot.  100% KA bread flour, 63-64% water, and .25-.30 IDY, 1.75-2% salt and no oil (just a little in the retarding pan). But I feel like I have a similar experience and similar goals...  Looking for very light and fluffy with a touch of crisp on the outside.  Where I am is fairly light and fairly fluffy, but not enough, and essentially no crisp in the dough.

I have been wondering if 64% is just too much for a 600F oven?  Obviously it will cook but maybe it will never get your desired results without more heat?

What was your cook time?   I am at around 5 minutes at 600F in a home oven.

I have read about letting the dough breath for 30 minutes after finishing with the mixing (i.e. cross stacking before "sealing).... although I've never tried it.  What effect does that have on the dough?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 01:22:01 PM by pcampbell »
Patrick

Offline scott r

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2007, 01:25:17 PM »


Mixed (ala Varasano, sort of) 75% of the flour blend with yeast, salt, and all of the water, first brought it together with spoon, then 2 minutes on lowest setting of kitchen aid mixer.  Rest for 5 minutes, then mixed 5 more minutes, at this point I gradually added the rest of the flour over the course of 2 more minutes.  I had to mix a bit with my hand to fully incorporate the flour, then mixed in the oil by hand to keep it from sliding around in the bowl.  Back in the mixer for 1 minute, it was still very wet so I added about 40g more of flour.  Kneaded it by hand for 1 minute, then divided and stored them in stacking metal cans. I put them in the fridge with the lids slightly ajar to allow them to cool for 1/2 hour.  Rested for 2 days in the fridge, then took them out three hours before baking(my apartment is kind of chilly, 68 degrees).  Took them to the restaurant and baked them off, they're quite loose so I barely had to spread them.  They had a nice flavor and some bubbling in the cornicione but still were very chewy and just slightly hard.  I want crisp on the outside but still very tender, and I'm hoping for less chewiness.  Any ideas? You guys always amaze me with your breadth and depth of dough knowledge, so let me know if there is info I left out or something I'm not thinking of.  Is this even possible in the ovens I described?  I've had good pizza from deck ovens but its few and far between around here.  How do I do it?!  Thanks!  :)

Dave

Dave, If you are looking for a NY elite style pizza try a simpler mixing regimen and a good american bread or high gluten flour.  The extra chew is probably because of a number of things, but start by focusing on your mix and flour first. Caputo really only performs well in a 1.5 minute or faster bake, so even after blending with AP it is just not the right flour for your lower temperature ovens.  The only pizza I have ever had using a normal deck oven and caputo that was anything to speak about is DiFara's in Brooklyn.  Unfortunately I think the crust is the weakest link in his pizza.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 01:37:17 PM by scott r »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2007, 01:49:46 PM »
Dave,

I have some thoughts on this matter, but before giving them to you can you tell me how many dough balls you made from your dough batch, and what size pizzas you made with those dough balls? I take it that the dough balls were all of the same size, but if they were not, please give me the different dough ball weights and corresponding pizza sizes.

Peter

Offline motownpizzaguy

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2007, 04:30:00 PM »
Hi all, I want to address everyone here!   

To pcampbell:  That is something to check on, maybe too high a water %.  BUT, if I can get my ovens calibrated higher that could make things OK.  I played around with bake times allowing some to go as long as 7 minutes- tough pie, but most developed flavor, the caramelizing made for nice taste.  5.5 minutes was the other one that I described originally.  As far as the cross stacking of pans, I used to have a problem with my dough basically collapsing and stretching just trying to get it out of the pan and it was suggested to me on this very forum that my dough might have overproofed- the dough actually produces heat(I believe from the yeast activity?) and keeping the pan/tray open allows the dough to stay cool and not overactivate the yeast too early.  Check me on that if I'm wrong guys.

To Scott R:
Thanks for the tips- I will definitely talk to my supply guy about the potential heat of the ovens.  I'm also going to pick up some HG flour tonight and give that a whirl. Maybe I'll try that first and see if I can simplify the mixing technique later.

To Pete-zza:
I made 4 14" pizzas, thickness factor 0.09.  I always shoot for around 1000g flour as I have found that that is about the amount of flour that mixes well(or at least relatively well!) in my Kitchen Aid.


Offline motownpizzaguy

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2007, 04:34:27 PM »
Where I am is fairly light and fairly fluffy, but not enough, and essentially no crisp in the dough.


Two quick thoughts: are you using a stone?  And are you allowing a long preheat?  When I was home testing I would preheat my oven to max with the stone in for at least an hour before a pie ever touched it. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2007, 07:58:18 PM »
Dave,

Thanks for the additional information.

I agree with the others that your hydration may too high for the all-purpose and Caputo 00 flours. The rated hydration for a typical all-purpose flour, such as the King Arthur all-purpose flour, is about 61%, and for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour it is about 55-57%. With that combination, you might want to use around 60% hydration to start and go from there. In the old days, the master elite pizza makers in NYC apparently used all-purpose flour with a hydration of 65%. However, that was before refrigeration was invented for the most part, so their doughs werenít exposed to long fermentation times that could make them highly extensible. The dough balls were used the same day they were made. Although they didnít use weight measurements at the time, or calculate things like thickness factors, the thickness factors I calculated based on information that Evelyne Sloman gave me were in the range of 0.06-0.09 depending on the weight of dough ball and the pizza sizes they made.

For a NY elite style, you might use high-gluten flour alone, or possibly in combination with the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour if you like the flavor that the Caputo flour gives to the finished crust. In lieu of the high-gluten flour, you can also use a good bread flour, as scott r noted. Bread flour will give you a slightly softer crust texture because it has less protein than a high-gluten flour. The finished crust might be a bit lighter although that can be made up for by a longer bake.

What scott r says about the DiFara dough is correct, although Dom DeMarco uses only a roughly 2-hour room temperature fermentation for his dough (the dough balls are kept nice and cozy and warm in the bottom drawer of his oven). The last I heard, Dom was using the All Trumps high-gluten flour along with a brand of 00 flour that appears to change from to time.  If you use a dough like Domís but give it a few days of cold fermentation, you should end up with a better dough than his.

One of the hardest things to achieve in a pizza is a nice crispy outer crust with decent chew but a soft and tender interior. One of the few ways that comes to mind to achieve that result, and it may not be practical for a commercial pizza operation, is to let the skin proof for a while after it has been made. That should create an insulator effect in the dough and permit a longer bake time while retaining a chewy character to the crust along with crispiness on the bottom. But if the crust is too thin, you may not get the desired softness of the crumb. As a test, you may want to try using a thickness factor of around 0.105 to see if that gets you headed in the right direction. But you wonít have an elite style with that value. You can get increased tenderness using sugar and oil, either alone or in combination, but with the sugar you run the risk of the pizzas burning on the bottom. But using either sugar or oil also takes you away from the elite style, at least the original elite style.

Once you go professional, you will not be able to use elaborate dough making schemes like Jeffís. You will most likely be hiring people who do not have the skill set for that type of dough preparation. So, your final dough formulation should be one that can be executed using Hobart or similar commercial mixers. You will also want to use cross-stacking and down-stacking of trays of dough balls, or covered rack systems, or stacked metal dough proofing boxes like you now appear to be using.

I donít see any problems with the ovens you plan to use. You will have to develop your dough formulation to work with those ovens but that doesnít appear to be a big obstacle to me. In fact, if you can get the oven hot enough you may be able to bake your pizzas faster and get the desired crispiness without the interior drying out too fast.

Peter

Offline bakerboy

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2007, 06:24:20 PM »
motown, I'm interested in what kind of equipment you'll be using, (other than your blodgetts) especially the mixer.  Hopefully you have at least a 60 qt.  It is VERY difficult to formulate a commercial pie dough in a k5.  volume changes everything.
You will also not have time to mix, and add, and rest, and mix, and primp, and teeter, etc.   Thats great for people who make pizzas at home.  They can afford to play with dough calculators.  You cannot.  you have to rock and roll.  You have to make money.  The sooner you can mix a large batch of dough in your shop and see how it performs under working conditions, the better.  THEN you can tweak your recipe to your liking, but ONE variable at a time.

Beware of using expensive ingredients.  I'm not saying do everything on the cheap, but unless your in an area full of affluent pizza knowledgeble clientele, splurging on the finest San Marzano tomatoes and mozzaralle di bufalo will not be necesary, practical, or financially feasable.  You can make a perfectly awesome sauce with affordable products.
If its calibrated correctly, leave your oven alone.  Don't be enticed to finagle the thermostat and/or enlarge gas jets to acheive 900F so you can cook a pie in 2 min.  I never understood the attraction to do that.  Furthermore you void any and all warranty you may have on the oven and insurance will not cover damage to the surrounding property  ie walls, floors, ceiling, etc.  Something to think about if its not your building, cause repairs are coming out of your pocket.  don't go out of your way to make more problems for yourself.

Vast majority of the public want a good pie at a reasonable price, and that pie will be either plain or pepperoni....no matter WHAT artistic ideals you may have.  People love specialty pies, but people BUY plain and/or pepperoni.  You will have to move alot of pies and your pies will have to be good......but you will make a VERY good pie and you will kick their ass.
I too took over a previously owned shop.  Its going to be alot like getting a drink from a fire hydrant....but when it all clicks, its so cool.
Best of luck and keep us posted on progress/problems.

Barry.

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2007, 07:15:29 PM »
Thats great for people who make pizzas at home.  They can afford to play with dough calculators.  You cannot. 


Barry,

I believe that Dave was using the dough calculator to try to come up with a test recipe that he might be able to use in his business. But if you take a look at that calculator, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, I  think you will see that it can be used by anyone, including people in the business. In fact, one member used a precursor of the tool to start a pizza business in South China. He used the tool to create small test batches at first, and larger batches later. He did some tweaking because of local flours and other ingredients but the dough recipe remained pretty much intact.

Peter


Offline scott r

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2007, 07:16:05 PM »
motown, I'm interested in what kind of equipment you'll be using, (other than your blodgetts) especially the mixer.  Hopefully you have at least a 60 qt.  It is VERY difficult to formulate a commercial pie dough in a k5.  volume changes everything.
You will also not have time to mix, and add, and rest, and mix, and primp, and teeter, etc.   Thats great for people who make pizzas at home.  They can afford to play with dough calculators.  You cannot.  you have to rock and roll.  You have to make money.  The sooner you can mix a large batch of dough in your shop and see how it performs under working conditions, the better.  THEN you can tweak your recipe to your liking, but ONE variable at a time.


If its calibrated correctly, leave your oven alone.  Don't be enticed to finagle the thermostat and/or enlarge gas jets to acheive 900F so you can cook a pie in 2 min.  I never understood the attraction to do that.  Furthermore you void any and all warranty you may have on the oven and insurance will not cover damage to the surrounding property  ie walls, floors, ceiling, etc.  Something to think about if its not your building, cause repairs are coming out of your pocket.  don't go out of your way to make more problems for yourself.
Barry.

This is a great point.  After perfecting my  dough recipe at home I was surprised at the outcome when I was able to use large commercial mixers and huge batches of dough.  The good news is that I found the commercial mixers do a MUCH better job than a kitchen aid or even my electrolux DLX. I think you will find that if you get your dough to the point where you like it at home, it will be much better at work!

As far as the calibration goes, Dave said that the two ovens were baking differently (obviously one or both are not calibrated properly), so a tune up is going to be a good thing.  Also, FYI there is no way you could ever get 900 out of a deck oven, 725 is max, and all you have to do is hit a couple of the places around New York to see why places like Difara's and Johnnies have their ovens maxed out.  It makes a totally different pizza.

Offline motownpizzaguy

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2007, 10:35:56 PM »
Hello all,
Thanks to everyone for the feedback- I'm about to mix a batch with my same percentages but  using 100% KA bread flour.  I'm also going to simplify the process- just do a basic mix where I blend the dry ingredients in the bowl then add water and start mixing.  I still am planning on adding the oil after the flour has a chance to hydrate as I've heard that it will just coat the flour particles otherwise and not blend uniformly.  I'll post my results, I'm going to bake off after one and two days and check for differences.

I am glad to hear that the industrial mixers produce a better product, I suspected as much as I've worked in two operations and just watching the way the dough comes together, you can just tell the flour mixes differently, and more uniformly.  I will be using a 60 qt Hobart when I open(they currently have a 30 qt but I talked to an equipment guy about an exchange for the larger size). 

I do read quite a bit saying that the higher heat can make a large difference in the product so I do plan on researching the potential increase in temperature, at the least I'm going to get them to 650, which is what the product specs say is the max output. 

I'll keep posting my progress, and again, thanks for all of the input

Offline motownpizzaguy

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2007, 09:00:57 AM »
Thanks for everyone's advice, again it has come in so handy.  I used the same recipe with KA bread flour instead of the AP/00 blend I had used previously (64% H2O, 1.5% salt, .2%IDY) but this time I omitted the oil.  I used a simple mix technique, blending the dry ingredients, adding the water(at 38 degrees) and bringing it together with a spoon before mixing on 1st speed kitchenaid for 4.5 minutes.  I stopped at this point because the dough was basically wrapped around the hook and not even touching the sides of the bowl.  I did a windowpane test which was borderline, i.e. I was just starting to see through the dough when it would tear.  I decided to try it slightly undeveloped like this.  There were two concerns with this test run.  I made 4 pies and the first two were a vast improvement, in fact almost exactly what I'm looking for- crisp, tender interior, not hard to spread, easy to chew through, really nice pies( and this was actually in a home oven at 550 with pizza stone so I'm quite sure with my deck oven and real mixer the results will be better).  One concern was the handling of the dough- the first two came out somewhat easily, but in the time I allowed the stone to reheat the other doughs ended up sitting out longer and were somewhat difficult to remove from the aluminum boxes.  I used a tiny squirt of oil on each ball when I first put them in the boxes, but the dough had begun to cling to the box.  I was able to remove them without degassing too much but it was a delicate procedure- I don't think this would be practical in a real operation.  Like I said the first two came out quite readily so I feel like I'm close.  My second concern was that the final pie came out a quite a bit more chewy, puffy,  and less crisp.  I also topped this pie with more cheese than I normally use(per my 5 year old nephew and his pal's request!) so I think that had something to do with the quality of the bake.  So is that something I'll have to tell my customers, if you want extra cheese its gonna hurt the crust, or is something else going on that I'm missing?  I'm going to try a longer mix next time by knocking down the dough and redistributing it in the mixer, something I hope I won't have to do in the hobart at the restaurant.  I also plan on trying a high gluten flour. Thanks again for reading and advising everyone!

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2007, 10:19:38 AM »
Dave,

For your commercial operation I think you may want to consider using the dough making and management procedures outlined at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52. There is nothing per se wrong with metal storage containers but dough trays are more effective and efficient if you plan to make pizzas in relatively high volume. With dough boxes you can also easily lift sticky dough balls using a simple bench knife (dough blade).

I agree that you should try using high-gluten flour even if it is only for comparison purposes. You can stick with the 64% hydration with that flour, but if the stickiness problem persists, you might drop the hydration a bit. I think you will find that professional pizza operators don't use as high a hydration as you have been using. They typically use around 58-60%, especially those slapping skins out by hand and tossing them.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Formulating dough recipe for my restaurant
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2007, 12:46:33 PM »
Glad to here you are going in the right direction!