Author Topic: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On  (Read 1590 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline adacube

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« on: March 06, 2016, 12:29:33 PM »
I see there are alot of people here who take their pizza seriously. This is the recipe I've been working on: http://www.pizzaconnoisseur.com/homemade/recipes/deep-dish-recipe.php Any feedback appreciated!

Offline Garvey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 701
  • I wish could have pizza every day.
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2016, 12:52:51 PM »
Welcome!

My only feedback is that the best thing I ever did to step up my pizza game was to convert dough recipes to weights rather than volumetric measurements.  That way, anyone can replicate exactly what the recipe is, which is the basis for trial-and-error.  When only volume is given, there is too much variation.

Cheers!

Garvey

Offline Ronk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7
  • Location: New england
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2016, 05:24:42 PM »
Sorry but that does not look like a chicago deep dish pie.

Cornmeal and fat are an integral part of the dough (sometimes milk, too). I lived in chicago for 5 years and sampled almost every place talking to anyone at everyplace trying to get knowledge for how they made the pie. Ive been making deep dish for almost 10years, too.

First, the crust is way undercooked. Second, too bready looking and third, the sauce too thin.

The dought should be fried looking and flakey. The sauce thick and rich.

While the pie may taste good, it just doesnt resemble a true chicago deep dish, at least those i know.

Offline adacube

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2016, 05:47:16 PM »
Well I know for sure that Lou Malnati's doesn't use cornmeal because their ingredients are listed on their frozen pizzas. I've read other places too that cornmeal is not used but for some reason most of the recipes you find online list it. I've tried those recipes and they just taste like normal homemade pizza crust but mine definitely does resemble the taste (But not so much the texture I'll admit. Probably because I use less oil). Mine isn't bready, I'm not sure why you think that. The sauce amount is very comparable to what I've had in Chicago but I've also had some that had more sauce. What does your recipe look like if you don't mind me asking?

Offline Steve

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2209
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Richmond, VA
    • pizzamaking.com
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2016, 06:48:23 PM »
Most of the good Chicago recipes here call for semolina flour (instead of cornmeal) to give some toothiness to the crust.

Offline adacube

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2016, 07:10:46 PM »
After seeing some pictures posted here I'll definitely be using some semolina flour in the next batch.

Offline Ronk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7
  • Location: New england
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2016, 08:41:11 PM »
425g bread flour
25g yellow cornmeal
13g malt extract

To that add 75g warm water/3g yeast, 195g cool water, 40g melted and cooled unsalted European butter and 10g salt. Mix until it comes together then lightly kneed until smooth. Place in lightly oiled bowl, cover and ferment in fridge.

After 36hr remove and press out, ball, and put back in bowl, cover and fridge for at least 24hrs. Remove 4hr before baking. Let sit 2hr, remove, coat with semolina, roll out to just under 1/4" and lay in heavily buttered 13-14" diameter 2" high black steel pan. let sit 2hr and then trim edges. Top with sliced mozz and (optional) sliced provolone then sausage (or whatever, i like sauted broccoli raub in garlic oil), then a little sauce, a dusting of pecorino romano, some shredded mozz and then a good topping of sauce. Cook for 35-40min on a stone/steel at 375. Dust with romano when done.

Sauce is 6oz paste with 20oz crushed/ground tomatoes with garlic powder, salt oregano and oil. Separate to maybe 1/3 in one bowl and 2/3 in other and to 2/3 add 12oz of chopped tomatoes and gently mix. Fridge these for 48hr. The 1/3 is what you use the first lower saice and the 2/3 is used to top.

I may try substituting semolina for cornmeal.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 08:43:36 PM by Ronk »

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2901
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Pittsburgh
  • It's Pizza Time
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2016, 12:50:37 AM »
No cornmeal in any of the top places.  That's a myth.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 764
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2016, 04:58:50 PM »
No cornmeal in any of the top places.  That's a myth.

Thank you for pointing that out Pythonic.  Although several recipes in the Chicago style section call for the inclusion of cornmeal or semolina, these were ingredients that were mainly discovered by members who were trying to emulate the toothy crunchiness of the main players of deep dish pizza in Chicago.  You could think of them as a kind of 'cheat'.  They do impart a certain texture to the crust, but they are not necessarily essential elements and are not likely used in most of the big deep dish pizzerias.  I personally like the addition of semolina in my deep dish crust (I use 20%), but by no means does that mean it is a clone of a particular Chicago establishment.  It just works for me and my taste.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline adacube

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2016, 07:11:32 PM »
Used 25% semolina flour this time as well as a little extra corn oil. It did end up being a little crunchier but I need to try it again with even more oil. I also added some tomato paste to the sauce which thickened it up and added to the flavor. I will be driving through Chicago this weekend and will have to pick up a Lou Malnati's to get reacquainted with the real deal.  ;D

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2901
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Pittsburgh
  • It's Pizza Time
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2016, 02:04:08 PM »
Thank you for pointing that out Pythonic.  Although several recipes in the Chicago style section call for the inclusion of cornmeal or semolina, these were ingredients that were mainly discovered by members who were trying to emulate the toothy crunchiness of the main players of deep dish pizza in Chicago.  You could think of them as a kind of 'cheat'.  They do impart a certain texture to the crust, but they are not necessarily essential elements and are not likely used in most of the big deep dish pizzerias.  I personally like the addition of semolina in my deep dish crust (I use 20%), but by no means does that mean it is a clone of a particular Chicago establishment.  It just works for me and my taste.

Yep.  That crunchiness comes from a commericial oven.  Just no way to really duplicate it but to add some semolina.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline dstagl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 14
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2016, 03:49:27 PM »
Yep.  That crunchiness comes from a commericial oven.  Just no way to really duplicate it but to add some semolina.

So what is it about a commercial oven that makes this possible? I can understand it for the neopolitan stuff where they're baking around 900-1100 degrees, but if you're using a stone in your oven and baking around 450, what is different in the commercial oven?

Dave


Offline adacube

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2016, 05:03:05 PM »
The last one I made I used even more oil and turned the oven up to 450 F. The outside of the crust was actually crunchy but everything under the cheese was soft. I'm now thinking its because moisture is unable to escape when its covered up. Next time I'm going to prebake the crust for a few minutes and see if that makes a difference. I don't think the "big players" do this but maybe those hot ovens are able to retain their heat when placing the pizza in which heats up the dough faster?

Offline Ronk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7
  • Location: New england
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2016, 01:23:21 PM »
So what is it about a commercial oven that makes this possible? I can understand it for the neopolitan stuff where they're baking around 900-1100 degrees, but if you're using a stone in your oven and baking around 450, what is different in the commercial oven?

Dave

450 degrees is 450 degrees. Period. There is little difference provided you preheat your home oven for an hour and dont open/close the door every 3min once you put you pie in or the temp will drop.  (Commercial ovens have mass so they are able to maintain temp with repeated opening/closing of the door). Put the pie in the oven as quickly as possible and shut the door. Leave shut for first 20 minutes. Rotate pan and leave alone another 15 minutes. Remove from oven and check crust and then decide how much longer to cook.

Once cooked remove from pan and place on wire rack to rest. Let rest 5-10min then cut.

It is cornmeal and/or semolina with fat (oil or butter or both) that gives the dough its distinct crunch and texture. And the oven temp is closer to 375 to 400 with long bakes (35-45min). The pans are also well oiled or buttered.




Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2901
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Pittsburgh
  • It's Pizza Time
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2016, 12:11:16 AM »
So what is it about a commercial oven that makes this possible? I can understand it for the neopolitan stuff where they're baking around 900-1100 degrees, but if you're using a stone in your oven and baking around 450, what is different in the commercial oven?

Dave

Better thermal mass, lower oven ceiling and seasoned pans is a game changer in my opinion.  Deck ovens are just better than your own oven.  I've baked up Chicago thin crust pizza at the restaurant I work part time at 450F and their is a huge difference.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Garvey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 701
  • I wish could have pizza every day.
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2016, 07:30:12 AM »
450 degrees is 450 degrees. Period.

Except that 450 in a home oven ISN'T 450 ""period"".  It cycles on and off to hold 420-480, averaging out around 450.

Or as Nate said:

Better thermal mass, lower oven ceiling...Deck ovens are just better than your own oven.

Couldn't agree more.

I'd also say that oven-to-oven variances are so great that you really have to "know thine oven."  That's the biggest thing anyone can do to step up their pizza game (well, that and using bakers percentages instead of volumetric recipes).  The 50-yr-old electric oven at the cabin in the woods I go to makes a helluva pie, if you know what you're doing.  The temperature knob on that thing, however, is a suggestion instead of an instrument of accuracy.  The gas oven at my house is a different story.  In both cases, I can cook a great pie.  And neither one is nothing like the other.  I can't just turn the dial to some magical 450 "pizza setting," like it's microwave popcorn. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 07:35:30 AM by Garvey »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24832
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2016, 10:27:30 AM »
Over the years, Tom Lehmann has written on some of the differences between home ovens and commercial ovens and, in that context, he has commented on insufficient BTUs in a home oven. This post talks about that aspect of a home oven:

Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3993.msg33314#msg33314.

Peter

Offline adacube

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2016, 10:33:44 AM »
I made a pizza last night and pre-baked the crust for 5 minutes. Then I baked the pizza for 35 minutes like usual. The crust turned more of a golden brown on the bottom. The very bottom of the crust was crunchy but it wasn't crumbly like Lou's. I've been playing around with different amounts of the ingredients listed on a frozen Lou's but I am thinking it may be difficult to achieve that crumbly texture without a commercial oven. Semolina flour did seem to help a little and allowed the dough to accept more oil while still being workable. I will keep playing with it but I am really happy with the flavor I've been able to create as well as the smell that fills my apartment during the process :) The suggestions here definitely contributed greatly to my modified recipe which I'll post here once I get it just right.

Offline Garvey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 701
  • I wish could have pizza every day.
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2016, 02:51:40 PM »
The very bottom of the crust was crunchy but it wasn't crumbly like Lou's.

Are you still doing the 64-hr ferment (36+24+4)?  If so, I wonder if the long fermentation time leads to more gluten development.  That is the principle behind no-knead doughs, that gluten develops on its own over time instead of quickly through kneading.  More gluten would mean more chewiness, as opposed to the short texture you desire.  (However, maybe the high oil content of deep dish dough counteracts gluten formation to some extent?)

I dunno.  Just spit-ballin' here.

Cheers,
Garvey

Offline Ronk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7
  • Location: New england
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2016, 05:45:37 PM »
Except that 450 in a home oven ISN'T 450 ""period"".  It cycles on and off to hold 420-480, averaging out around 450.

If your oven is drifting over that wide a range you have serious problems. Any decent oven will drift no more than 15deg MAX each side of set point. (I am using a 28yo whirlpool standard oven at its about 11deg drift).  Use an oven t-stat to know actual temp and dont rely on setting. Watch the drift. Its not that much. Preheat an hour so the whole unit comes to temp (thermal mass).

A home oven with a thick stone/steel can adequately cook 2-3 pies in sequence provided you arent opening/closing the door every 30sec.

You dont need a commercial ovem to cook great pizzas if cooking under 500deg.


Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 620
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2016, 10:40:58 AM »
Regarding the semolina debate, I just don't like it. To me it adds a density that seems inauthentic.  I do cook hotter and shorter than most everyone I read on here, though.

Loo
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline adacube

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Wisconsin
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Chicago Style Pizza Recipe I've Been Working On
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2016, 12:09:28 PM »
Are you still doing the 64-hr ferment (36+24+4)?  If so, I wonder if the long fermentation time leads to more gluten development.

I'm doing 24 hrs at room temp and 48 hrs in the fridge. I like the flavor it develops but maybe I could try decreasing it next time and see what it does to the texture.