Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 117896 times)

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Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #475 on: March 19, 2013, 10:36:03 AM »
Dude, I forgot you have a sheeter at home!  So jealous.

Had a chance to buy a floor-standing model for $300 and foolishly passed.  I truly do not have the space for it anywhere, not even store it temporarily.  But in hindsight, I should have bought it and tried to trade someone for a tabletop sheeter.


Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #476 on: March 19, 2013, 10:29:38 PM »
Thats a good idea Garvey!  i bet you could trade!  keep your eyes peeled!  you would no doubt get a lot of use out of it! as of late ive been looking for a hobart slicer, so i can make real chicago italian beef.  but man those are spendy!  the sheeter i use 1-2 times a week, but the slicer would probably only be once in a while....so i need to find a real steal to justify it!
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #477 on: March 20, 2013, 08:22:59 AM »




The HRI dough ball wasn’t warmed-up very long.  It was just put into my Hatco Unit until the chill was taken off of the dough ball.  The dough ball when rolling into a skin was cooler in the middle of the dough.  The skin wanted to become a little extensible when transferring it to the disk after docking the skin. After trying to flute the rim it wanted to flop over in some places, so the skin on the disk was put back into the pizza prep fridge to firm up the rim some. I also saw the dough want to slump some in the holes of the disk near the edges.  The rim was firmer after it cooled more, but when doing the pre-bake it still wanted to slump a little in some places.  That was tried to be fixed by using tongs to straighten up the fluted rim in a couple of places while the skin was pre-baking.  I used 2 screens and a perforated aluminum disk besides the dark disk to try the pre-bake.  I think I used too many screens because the rim of the crust was browning quicker than the bottom. 

The sauce, cheese and pepperoni were then applied after the pre-bake skin was taken out of the oven and the pizza just went back into the oven on the one dark disk after the ingredients were applied.  There still wasn’t much of any bottom crust browning when the toppings looked like they were almost finished baking, so the pizza was taken off of the disk and baked right on the deck.

The pizza was very tasty, and the rim crust was flaky, but the bottom crust didn’t have the layers it should have had.  Steve also liked this attempted HRI pizza when he doesn’t normally like thin crust pizzas.  The bottom crust was easy to eat and was somewhat flaky in texture as was the rim crust.

I was also somewhat surprised that the amount of IDY used didn’t make the dough ferment more.

I wonder how to really mix this high amount of corn oil with the water and flour and sure don’t know if I am trying it right.  In this article by Tom Lehmann http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2013-march-dough-doctor?A=SearchResult&SearchID=3880899&ObjectID=6164617&ObjectType=35#.UUmTJRzqlp4 Tom in the question about “weather influencing the amount of water added to the dough“, Tom says that if the mixer is stopped that might affect some of the flour absorbing the oil..  That portion of the flour will not create gluten as the dough is mixed, thus creating a dough that may appear to be softer.  Tom also says the best way to eliminate that problem is to use what he refers to as a delayed oil addition mixing method.  That allows the flour to fully hydrate before the oil is added.  I wonder if that also applies when a lot of corn oil is in a dough like HRI.

Tom Lehmann also mentions about the same thing about when to add oil in this article near the end of the article, but the oil amount is not nearly as high as what I have been adding to the water.  http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2009-november-dough-doctor?A=SearchResult&SearchID=3880929&ObjectID=6242961&ObjectType=35#.UUmWzRzqlp4

Tom also discusses something along similar lines at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2011-june-dough-doctor#.UUmZJBzqlp4  which might include not have a combined water and oil amount of more than 56 to 60 percent, but I don‘t know if that apples to a HRI dough.  I know my water/oil ratio is higher than 56 to 60 percent.   

I am wondering if a delayed oil addition (maybe in trying to drizzle the corn in after first mixing the other ingredients) might be better for a HRI dough.  I am having some confusion as what to try.  I think my oil/water ratio might be too high, or either I might not be mixing right, or enough. 

Since I never really ate a fresh HRI pizza I don’t know really what is going on in the taste, looks and texture of my HRI crust.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #478 on: March 20, 2013, 08:37:13 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #479 on: March 20, 2013, 08:40:17 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #480 on: March 20, 2013, 08:42:44 AM »
Norma

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #481 on: March 20, 2013, 10:49:12 AM »
that looks very delicious Norma!!!  thanks for all your work on this!!!!   boy i wonder from some of the pics.  if they dont fold that dough ball somehow before they put it in the press.  the layers Garvey showed in his pictures of the frozen pizza dont seem like they could just be naturally occurring?  your pizza looks flakey and delicious!!!  great great work!!!
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #482 on: March 20, 2013, 12:11:00 PM »
boy i wonder from some of the pics.  if they don't fold that dough ball somehow before they put it in the press.
Terry,

I have seen zero evidence of this--either for the frozen pizza operations going back to the 1990s and to the present, or in the HRI pizzerias. Since we have been talking largely about the HRI frozen pizzas, take a look at the photo at page 24 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 where you can see the dough balls heading for their untimely demise as they enter the hot presses and are subjected to 600 to 800 pounds of pressure for 10 seconds. Apparently that torture does not affect the nature of the finished crust from the standpoint of flakiness. If you look at the photo of page 26 of the article, you can see what appears to be the exiting of the pressed skins from the hot press area.

It also appears from the photo I first mentioned that the dough balls don't even have to be nicely rounded. You can even see where a worker put little dough balls on top of bigger dough balls to get the required weight.

Peter

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #483 on: March 20, 2013, 02:50:36 PM »
You sure are right Pete!  Could it be something related to that hot press?  Those layers are so distinct!  I wish we could see a crust done with and without the hot press.  Thank you for the valuable info and followup!
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #484 on: March 20, 2013, 03:13:18 PM »
You sure are right Pete!  Could it be something related to that hot press? Those layers are so distinct!  I wish we could see a crust done with and without the hot press.  Thank you for the valuable info and followup!
Good thinking Terry,

I would not doubt that it has everything to do with that. Member John "Fazzari" has discovered from extensive laminating experiments that it is steam(not hot oil)that causes pronounced layering/separations in his pizza doughs. Possibly that is what is going on here with the HRI crust.

Bob

I'm going to take my dough to the dry cleaners and ask them to steam press it for me..... ;D
...not really, but I got some ideas to try.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 03:16:16 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #485 on: March 20, 2013, 03:38:02 PM »
that looks very delicious Norma!!!  thanks for all your work on this!!!!   

Terry,

The attempted HRI pizza was good, but sure was missing those layers in the bottom crust.  I am not sure how to be able to try and achieve those flaky layers.  That is beyond me.  The only thing I could try is to use my Euro Steam cleaner.  The Euro Steam does provide a powerful burst of steam (or gradual steam) with different attachments I have for it.  If anyone wants me to give that I try I can.  I am not sure what temperature that steam is though. The steam might be too hot. I know the steam is under a lot of pressure though. 

If years ago HRI still had though layers in the bottom crust, those layers sure weren't caused by steam in my opinion.  I don't know if HRI did laminate their skins way back then though.

On the first experiment I did with that small dough ball, there were some layers.  I still can't figure that out either. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #486 on: March 20, 2013, 04:02:08 PM »
I just recalled that I think I also have a travel steamer for clothes that I used to use when I went on vacations.  I don’t recall where I stored that travel steamer, but I can look for it if anyone thinks it might help this thread.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #487 on: March 20, 2013, 04:09:27 PM »
The steam comes from heating the water (hydration) than is already present in the dough.
Applying steam to the outer surface of a dough will make a dumpling.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #488 on: March 20, 2013, 04:16:53 PM »
The steam comes from heating the water (hydration) than is already present in the dough.
Applying steam to the outer surface of a dough will make a dumpling.

Bob,

Thanks for explaining that to me.  I guess my ideas are way off.   :-D  I really don't understand how steam is applied to make layers.

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #489 on: March 20, 2013, 04:48:01 PM »
I don't know precisely how hot presses will affect the crumb structure of a dough using a very high amount of oil, but I did research them in general and discussed them in the companion HRI thread at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51754.html#msg51754 and also in this thread at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395. Reference is made in those posts to an article on presses by Tom Lehmann but there is also another Tom Lehmann article on hot (and cold) presses at http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml. From what Tom has said, a dough with 3-5% oil is especially good for use with presses. For a more recent article that discusses presses, see the article by Sarah Colombo at http://web.archive.org/web/20090607015955/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200805/topform.php .

In addition to the hot press and its possible affect on crumb structure, including flakiness, I think that one should also consider the way the dough is made, the way the skins are pre-baked, and the temperatures and durations of the various bake steps (pre-bake and final bake).

Peter
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 07:39:31 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #490 on: March 20, 2013, 05:11:40 PM »


In addition to the hot press and its possible affect on crumb structure, including flakiness, I think that one should also consider the way the dough is made, the way the skins are pre-baked, and the temperatures and durations of the various bake steps (pre-bake and final bake).

Peter
Absolutely....the "dough press" is not a magic bullet(per say). It works in conjunction with HRI's "total package" process.
Now we have to figure a way around....I think it is attainable and have a feeling that the "hot press" only serves to lend a hand in, their sheer volume of mass production.

Has it been determined if the original HRI pizza was in fact developed with the assistance of a hot dough press? 
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #491 on: March 20, 2013, 05:25:50 PM »
Has it been determined if the original HRI pizza was in fact developed with the assistance of a hot dough press?
Bob,

Yes. In the early days, HRI used a sheeter or roller of some sort. This was discussed at Reply 191 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190482.html#msg190482 . Once dressed, the pizzas were baked directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. HRI went to hot presses because it increased its throughput by threefold. The conveyor ovens got around having to rely on skilled oven tenders such as the operators who formerly managed deck ovens

Peter



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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #492 on: March 20, 2013, 05:49:02 PM »
Bob,

Yes. In the early days, HRI used a sheeter or roller of some sort. This was discussed at Reply 191 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190482.html#msg190482 . Once dressed, the pizzas were baked directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. HRI went to hot presses because it increased its throughput by threefold. The conveyor ovens got around having to rely on skilled oven tenders such as the operators who formerly managed deck ovens

Peter
I'm a little curious as to the actual temperature of their in house dough presses...but it doesn't really matter. Knowing that they did in fact start out with a sheeter/roller...that's all I need to know.
I have a feeling that straight on a hot stone is going to be key to accomplishing this in a home oven.

Please tell me if Bob is thinking crazy when he is wondering about maybe using a pre-baked and then frozen crust as a base. I know the oil to hydration ration will take some trials and believe it actually is going to be quite different to what is commonly believed. I'm not all too concerned about fermentation on this pizza(that's jus me) Thoughts?

Thanks Peter.

Bob
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 05:51:28 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #493 on: March 20, 2013, 06:26:49 PM »
I'm a little curious as to the actual temperature of their in house dough presses...but it doesn't really matter. Knowing that they did in fact start out with a sheeter/roller...that's all I need to know.
I have a feeling that straight on a hot stone is going to be key to accomplishing this in a home oven.

Please tell me if Bob is thinking crazy when he is wondering about maybe using a pre-baked and then frozen crust as a base. I know the oil to hydration ration will take some trials and believe it actually is going to be quite different to what is commonly believed. I'm not all too concerned about fermentation on this pizza(that's jus me) Thoughts?
Bob,

The most detailed article that I am aware of that describes how HRI made pizzas in its pizzerias as of 2011 is the article that is reproduced in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395. The article was reproduced there because the link rarely works and, when it does, the article, including at least one photo, vanishes into the ethers.

In its current frozen pizza plants, HRI currently uses two pre-bakes, or perhaps more accurately, one pre-bake and one par-bake. The pre-bake takes place at 490 degrees F for 90 seconds. This is for the skin as it comes out of the hot press and is docked. There is no carrier for the skin, as is used, for example, in the HRI pizzerias. Once the sauce, cheese and toppings are placed down onto the pre-baked crust, the completed pizza is baked for another three minutes at a temperature of 495 degrees F. The target temperature for the pizza is about 165 degrees F. Eventually, the par-baked pizza is flash frozen and packaged. I mention all this because I am not sure how par-baking an HRI clone crust and then freezing it will emulate a crust of a typical HRI frozen pizza. Maybe you can try to emulate the way that HRI makes its frozen pizzas, up to the point where they are par-baked and frozen, and freeze your own version. Maybe freezing has an effect of the final crust. I have been laboring under the impression that the HRI pizzas made in its pizzerias also have flaky crusts. If so, that might rule out the notion of freezing the pre-baked crust.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 07:30:49 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #494 on: March 20, 2013, 06:43:45 PM »
Thanks for those temps.

I believe you misunderstood my idea about freezing a crust.  I am not interested in recreating a HRI frozen pizza.

I am wondering if freezing the base(pizza crust) might somehow cause the frozen water in that dough to release more steam, cause more layering within this oil laden formula...after the frozen crust is traditionally topped and then placed on a hot stone.   Use a frozen crust to make a fresh pizza...that is what I am trying to say.

Bob
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #495 on: March 21, 2013, 12:19:26 PM »
Will crisco give it layers?
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #496 on: March 21, 2013, 01:58:53 PM »
I believe you misunderstood my idea about freezing a crust.  I am not interested in recreating a HRI frozen pizza.

I am wondering if freezing the base(pizza crust) might somehow cause the frozen water in that dough to release more steam, cause more layering within this oil laden formula...after the frozen crust is traditionally topped and then placed on a hot stone.   Use a frozen crust to make a fresh pizza...that is what I am trying to say.

Bob,

Actually, I did understand your post but thought that you might want to consider taking the matter a further step and make a frozen par-baked pizza. I also sought to draw a distinction between a frozen par-baked crust and a frozen par-baked pizza, as noted in this excerpt from my post:

I mention all this because I am not sure how par-baking an HRI clone crust and then freezing it will emulate a crust of a typical HRI frozen pizza. Maybe you can try to emulate the way that HRI makes its frozen pizzas, up to the point where they are par-baked and frozen, and freeze your own version. Maybe freezing has an effect of the final crust. I have been laboring under the impression that the HRI pizzas made in its pizzerias also have flaky crusts. If so, that might rule out the notion of freezing the pre-baked crust.

However, I do understand your point better now and can only suggest that you give your idea a try. Maybe the water crystals that form and expand during freezing do something to the internal structure of the crust that creates the flaky character of an HRI crust. However, as I noted in the last sentence of the above excerpt, if the HRI pizzas made in their pizzerias (from dough that has not been frozen) also have flaky crusts, then that might rule out the notion of freezing a pre-baked crust.

In your case, to make the final pizza would you let the frozen par-baked crust defrost first and then dress and bake, or would you dress the par-baked crust while still frozen and then bake?

Peter


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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #497 on: March 21, 2013, 02:00:19 PM »
I don’t think this has been posted before, but this article said back in 1998 that frozen Home Run Inn pizzas are even exported to Bolonga, Italy says James Hurley.  James Hurley also said Home Run frozen pizzas are best if they are microwaved, not baked in an oven and that saves minutes.  http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-05-06/business/9805060282_1_export-assistance-center-kraft-foods-pizzas

But perseverance pays off. Hurley, the exporter of Home Run Inn pizzas to Italy, said he shipped to four countries in 1993. "Now it's 40 countries," he added.
Has anyone microwaved a HRI pizza? The claim that they are better nuked is hard to believe. I've never had good pizza from a microwave.

I wonder what people think of Home Run Inn frozen pizzas in other countries.

Norma

Has anyone microwaved a HRI pizza? It's hard to believe the claim that it's better when nuked. I've never had good pizza from a microwave.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 02:02:39 PM by redox »

Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #498 on: March 21, 2013, 02:45:42 PM »
Has anyone microwaved a HRI pizza? It's hard to believe the claim that it's better when nuked. I've never had good pizza from a microwave.

I made one of those tiny ones for my wife one time.  It comes with the shiny insert in the box that you put the pizza on top of.  IIRC, it came out surprisingly good.  I was completely shocked.

But again, that was just one time I tried that, and it was years ago.  I never buy the small ones.  Can't even say why I did that time.

Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #499 on: March 21, 2013, 04:20:04 PM »
I am going to give the HRI dough and pizza a stab again.  This time I dropped the hydration some,  dropped the yeast amount and dropped the corn oil amount from what I used before.  I knew I was going to babysit my great-granddaughter this afternoon for a couple of hours, so I decided to use a 13” desired pizza size in the expanded dough calculation tool, so my great-granddaughter could also roll some pizza dough.   

The method I used for mixing this time was to mix the water flour, yeast and salt with the flat beater and after all that came together I keep using the flat beater and drizzled all the corn oil in the dough slowly.  After the dough was mixed more, I then changed over to the dough hook and mixed for 6 more minutes.  The dough came together well.  The dough was then balled. I left the dough sit for one hour to ferment some.  Then I rolled the dough ball into a skin.  The dough rolled very well and I think I could have stretched it like regular pizza dough, but that isn’t what I wanted to try.  I then folded the skin and it went into the fridge until Saturday.

My great-granddaughter also rolled her small dough ball and I left that skin out to room temperature ferment.  The last picture is of what the skin looked like after awhile at room temperature.  I am going to try and use my great-granddaughter skin to try and bake a regular small pizza after while.  I put the skin in the fridge for right now until I have time to flute the skin, dress the pizza and bake it right on my pizza stone.

Norma


 

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