Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 86902 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #620 on: April 05, 2013, 07:27:36 PM »
Norma,

Overall, I think you did quite well with your latest effort.

It sounds like the dough handled quite well. Can you tell us how long you pre-baked the crust before dressing it and finishing the bake?

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #621 on: April 05, 2013, 07:55:31 PM »
Norma,

It sounds like the dough handled quite well. Can you tell us how long you pre-baked the crust before dressing it and finishing the bake?

Peter

Peter,

The attempted HRI pizza was good, but I sure donít know how to get more flakiness.  Maybe I should have left the skin on the dark disk at room temperature for about 10-15 minutes before pre-baking it. 

The dough did handle very well.  I pre-baked the crust for a little over 4 minutes.  The crust looked light to me at that amount of time, but it did look set.  I canít really set my oven to 400 degrees and expect it to be at 400 degrees F, so I used my IR gun and the IR gun said it was under 400 degrees at some places and over 400 degrees some places.  I did open the oven different times too, so I am not sure exactly what temperature the crust was pre-baked at.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #622 on: April 05, 2013, 08:24:52 PM »
Norma,

There is no way to know for sure what caused your particular results because you deviated from the dough making sequence that HRI purportedly uses. For example, in your case, the accelerated fermentation may have affected the final crust texture. Also, HRI may be proofing the skins on the carriers in its restaurants rather than letting the dough balls themselves warm up before forming into skins. As speculated earlier, HRI may be feeding cold or cool dough balls into its dough presses in the restaurants. The dough presses may create the exoskeleton yet let the skins proof thereafter. 

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #623 on: April 05, 2013, 09:02:49 PM »
Norma,

There is no way to know for sure what caused your particular results because you deviated from the dough making sequence that HRI purportedly uses. For example, in your case, the accelerated fermentation may have affected the final crust texture. Also, HRI may be proofing the skins on the carriers in its restaurants rather than letting the dough balls themselves warm up before forming into skins. As speculated earlier, HRI may be feeding cold or cool dough balls into its dough presses in the restaurants. The dough presses may create the exoskeleton yet let the skins proof thereafter. 

Peter

Peter,

I know I deviated from the dough making sequence that HRI probably uses, and the fast fermentation of my dough ball might have affected the final crust texture.

I think I am going to let future experiments to other members on an HRI clone pizza.  I donít think I will ever get the right texture in the crust with that flakiness. 

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #624 on: April 06, 2013, 10:22:15 AM »


I was reluctant in Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 to state a pre-bake time for the skin. That is because there are so many different types and models of ovens and I didn't want people to slavishly follow a pre-bake time that I used in my electric oven. However, I plan to go back to Reply 566 and clarify what I said there so people don't use bake times that are excessively long.

It sounds like the dough handled well notwithstanding the final results. Can you tell us more about that and how you prepared and handled the skin prior to its pre-bake?

Peter
Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking with that 14min pre-bake. In reply 566 you said bake to a light brown....maybe that flute edge was protecting the top because without my realizing it the bottom was browning while the top stayed white.  :-D

Any way, I rolled it cold right from the frig. fluting stood right up for me. My dough docker is hiding so I grabbed a fork an lightly docked, onto a perf. pan and into 400 degree middle rack for 14min.  :o

For this other ball I have do you recommend room temp. before rolling or should I just move on to trying something new?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #625 on: April 06, 2013, 11:20:54 AM »
For this other ball I have do you recommend room temp. before rolling or should I just move on to trying something new?

Bob

Bob,

I think I would still work the dough while cold but do everything on the flour-dusted wooden peel, including the docking. Then, I think I would slide the docked skin onto the disk or cutter pan and form the fluted rim, but being careful as not to push the flat part of the skin into the holes of the disk or cutter pan. If needed, I would tug the edges of the skin at this time if it needs more uniform rounding. I would then let the docked, fluted skin rest for about 15 minutes on the disk or cutter pan at room temperature, readjusting the fluted rim (and skin size) if necessary. Then I would do the pre-bake. If the dough is still cool at that point, then you may need to pre-bake a bit longer to compensate for that coolness. Alternatively, you can use a higher pre-bake temperature, maybe 425 degrees F.

As somewhat an aside, I took a closer look at the workers shown in the photo at page 24 at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. You will see three workers in that photo. There is a person standing next to wheeled racks of dough balls in trays, and there is a worker against the back wall. I am not exactly sure what she is doing but at some point there are 40-lb pieces of dough that come out of the dough chunker and formed into dough balls and weighed. Those dough balls apparently end up in the racks. Finally, there is a third person working the line into the hot dough presses. I suspect that there is another worker on the other side of the line to be sure that the dough balls properly enter the hot press area but was not shown in the photo. The point of all of this is that the dough balls do get some fermentation before they head into the dough presses. There is nothing in the article to suggest that there is any cold fermentation, but that may have been an innocent omission. Or it might have been intentional. We just don't know. But for a facility that goes through 20,000-30,000 pounds of flour a day and can make 120,000 6" pizzas, 100,000 10" pizzas or 120,000 12" pizzas a day, that would take a lot of cold storage capacity. That makes me believe that HRI uses continuously produced dough balls that get some ambient temperature fermentation and feed into the hot press area shown in the photo. By contrast, for the HRI pizzerias, we have been told that there is cold fermentation.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #626 on: April 06, 2013, 11:41:53 AM »
That is a lot of pizza pie's!  :o  No wonder they went into the frozen pizza business. Maybe we should consider doing that Pete-zza.  8)

fwiw, I didn't notice any big taste difference with that 3 day dough(maybe cause I over cooked the crap out of it).   It's no secret that many Chi-town thin pizza place's use a same day dough(it is mainly merely a carrier to bring on that great Premio sausage flavah :)).

Thanks for the continuing tips Peter. Until we get closer and then need some hard weight data would it be acceptable for me to switch over to 10in. pie's for now?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #627 on: April 06, 2013, 11:52:32 AM »
Thanks for the continuing tips Peter. Until we get closer and then need some hard weight data would it be acceptable for me to switch over to 10in. pie's for now?

Bob

Bob,

I would prefer to stick with the 12" size so as not to introduce another variable. Also, the 12" size is the one many of us have become familiar with. It is also the size that I dismantled to get weight data. If you'd like to make a 10" size on the side, I can convert the data for you for the cheese, sauce, pepperoni, etc. for that size, although I don't know if HRI uses proportional amounts of everything it puts on its pizzas.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #628 on: April 06, 2013, 12:06:25 PM »
Bob,

I would prefer to stick with the 12" size so as not to introduce another variable. Also, the 12" size is the one many of us have become familiar with. It is also the size that I dismantled to get weight data. If you'd like to make a 10" size on the side, I can convert the data for you for the cheese, sauce, pepperoni, etc. for that size, although I don't know if HRI uses proportional amounts of everything it puts on its pizzas.

Peter
Well, I'm just thinking in terms of getting the dough dialed in. I can eyeball cheese and sauce amounts on this type of pizza no matter what the size and know I will be very close, at least in terms as to how they will effect the bake of the crust.
I'd like to step up and do one of these a day to see if this crust is doable. But my dog an I can only eat so much HRI pizza Peter... ;D    That's why I'm asking about 10in for now and if dough paydirt is found I can always go back to 12 in order to dial in topping weights. Make sense?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #629 on: April 06, 2013, 12:13:23 PM »
Bob,

That's fine. I, too, can only eat so much pizza, whether it is an HRI clone pizza or any other kind. That is why I space my experiments.

Peter


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #630 on: April 06, 2013, 12:17:33 PM »
Yeah but Bob is on a mission man...this dough has got me slightly ticked off!   8)
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Offline redox

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #631 on: April 06, 2013, 01:40:05 PM »
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:41:55 PM by redox »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #632 on: April 06, 2013, 03:19:15 PM »
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
Jay,

It seems that a dough that is used cold is more amenable to the formation of an upstanding fluted rim, even with a hydration value of 53% that Bob has been testing recently. The skin should also roll out to size quite easily. So, in your case, you might do the same as Bob did in forming his last skin. 

As for the use of an unperforated 12" cutter pan, I think it is worth a try. HRI says that they use perforated disks to "allow moisture and heat to penetrate the crust". However, if it turns out that the bottom crust does not brown sufficiently using your unperforated cutter pan, you may have to slip the pizza out of the pan at some point and onto a rack where you can get more bottom heat. Since the unperforated cutter pan will take longer to heat up than a perforated one, you may also find it necessary to move the pizza higher up in the oven at some point (maybe toward the end of the final bake) if the top needs more heat.

If you decide to try your unperforated cutter pan, you should be able to dock the skin right in the cutter pan. Once you have formed the fluted rim, you can let the dough proof for about 15 minutes before pre-baking. If needed, you can readjust the rim and pizza size after that rest period.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #633 on: April 06, 2013, 03:29:36 PM »
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
Jay,
I'm doing my next the same way you are discussing...we'll have dueling pizza's.  :)
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Offline redox

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #634 on: April 06, 2013, 06:22:08 PM »
My pizza skill are pretty primitive so I'll concede right now...unless I can trick you into putting on these handcuffs.  >:D

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #635 on: April 06, 2013, 07:06:11 PM »
Yeah but Bob is on a mission man...this dough has got me slightly ticked off!   8)

Bob,

I thought I was on the mission too, but that dough got me ticked off, at least for a little while.   :-D 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #636 on: April 10, 2013, 10:31:24 AM »
I donít think these pictures were posted before of Home Run Inn pizzas (but if they were, just ignore or delete this post), but if the photos are clicked though the crust looks very light in color and there might be a gum line in the pizzas.  If interested, the photos might have to be accessed by clicking the Southside Chicago tag to be able to click though the photos. I am not sure how that works in trying to post the link to the photos.  These photos were posted by Eddie from Chicago on Flicker.  In the photo of the delicious homemade Italian garlic bread with Marinara sauce is looked at there appears to me there is a gum line.

Chicago's famous Home Run Inn Pizza restaurant at 6221 South Archer Avenue in Chicago;s Garfield Ridge neighborhood. Chicago Illinois USA. April 2009.

If I decide to attempt another Home Run Inn dough and pizza what hydration is recommended?

Edit:  For me I had to click on the older tab to be able to see the pictures.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 10:33:23 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #637 on: April 10, 2013, 11:34:14 AM »
Norma,

On the matter of the hydration value to use, I was hoping to get the latest feedback from Bob for the remaining dough ball that he had prepared, or so I thought. However, I am beginning to think that the extent of fermentation may be as critical as the hydration since a long fermentation may cause a weakening of the gluten matrix and make the dough softer overall. There are ways of offsetting the weakening of the gluten matrix that come to mind such as using a lower hydration value, reducing the amount of IDY (but still above 2%), using ADY in dry form (above 2% and maybe as high as 2.5%), using a longer knead in order to more fully develop and strengthen the gluten, or shorten the fermentation window. I think the desired end result is a dough that can be formed into a skin with a fluted rim that will remain erect and where the flat part of the skin does not sink into the holes of the perforated disk or cutter pan. Working the dough while cold should also help and yet be able to withstand a 15-20 minute rest while on the disk or cutter pan.

With a pizza as shown in the photos with sausage, pepperoni and peppers, and especially at the larger size noted in the photos, and a 425-450 degrees F oven temperature, I think it is perhaps inevitable that there will be a gum line, especially in the middle part of the crust.

I found that clicking on the HRI photo at the webpage you referenced allowed me to view all of the other HRI photos.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #638 on: April 10, 2013, 12:04:49 PM »
Sorry Peter, forgot about that one. After 6 days it was flattened out and very wet with water all over it. So I didn't make a HRI with it.
fwiw, I divided it in half and reballed. Rolled each 7 1/2oz ball out to 12in and made probably the tastiest thin crust pizza I've had in a while.

I'm going to take a close look at your latest post and mix something up this afternoon.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #639 on: April 10, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »
Sorry Peter, forgot about that one. After 6 days it was flattened out and very wet with water all over it. So I didn't make a HRI with it.
Bob,

No need to apologize. Actually, I'm glad to get the feedback in light of my concern about the effects of a long fermentation on a dough such as the HRI clone dough. In the various articles I read about HRI's dough, the window of fermentation specified in the articles ranged from 12 hours to about three days. That is a pretty wide spread, and one that I would imagine would result in significant variations in the pizzas made in their pizzerias. 

Peter