Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 89791 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #640 on: April 10, 2013, 12:24:55 PM »
Norma,

On the matter of the hydration value to use, I was hoping to get the latest feedback from Bob for the remaining dough ball that he had prepared, or so I thought. However, I am beginning to think that the extent of fermentation may be as critical as the hydration since a long fermentation may cause a weakening of the gluten matrix and make the dough softer overall. There are ways of offsetting the weakening of the gluten matrix that come to mind such as using a lower hydration value, reducing the amount of IDY (but still above 2%), using ADY in dry form (above 2% and maybe as high as 2.5%), using a longer knead in order to more fully develop and strengthen the gluten, or shorten the fermentation window. I think the desired end result is a dough that can be formed into a skin with a fluted rim that will remain erect and where the flat part of the skin does not sink into the holes of the perforated disk or cutter pan. Working the dough while cold should also help and yet be able to withstand a 15-20 minute rest while on the disk or cutter pan.

With a pizza as shown in the photos with sausage, pepperoni and peppers, and especially at the larger size noted in the photos, and a 425-450 degrees F oven temperature, I think it is perhaps inevitable that there will be a gum line, especially in the middle part of the crust.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts.  Do you have any recommendations on how long to try and cold ferment the dough and also what hydration I should try?  I can try ADY if you want me to try that.  I have a full bag of Red Star ADY. 

Norma
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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #641 on: April 10, 2013, 12:26:02 PM »
And I'll do an IDY.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #642 on: April 10, 2013, 12:58:51 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts.  Do you have any recommendations on how long to try and cold ferment the dough and also what hydration I should try?  I can try ADY if you want me to try that.  I have a full bag of Red Star ADY. 
Norma,

Why don't you try 50% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY (mainly for flavor), 19% corn oil, 2% salt, and monitor the expansion of the dough. If the dough about doubles within a day, then that might be a good time to use it. Otherwise, look to use it the next day. I would not want to see the dough triple in volume, although it would still work but may not have adequate strength.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #643 on: April 10, 2013, 01:59:33 PM »
Norma,

Why don't you try 50% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY (mainly for flavor), 19% corn oil, 2% salt, and monitor the expansion of the dough. If the dough about doubles within a day, then that might be a good time to use it. Otherwise, look to use it the next day. I would not want to see the dough triple in volume, although it would still work but may not have adequate strength.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting what to try next.  I will place the poppy seeds on the dough ball again to monitor the expansion and will wait until the dough about doubles to make the next attempt.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #644 on: April 10, 2013, 05:21:46 PM »
I mixed another HRI clone dough attempt and used the instructions Peter posted at Reply
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715
for the mixing sequences of ingredients.  The Kitchen Aid mixer did a good job and no extra flour had to be added, but the first mix with the flour and water sure had the mixer bowl trying to jump off where it sits on the mixer arms.

I did scale the dough ball back to 425 grams, but now see I made a mistake with what TF I used in the Expanded Dough Calculation Tool. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #645 on: April 11, 2013, 08:14:15 AM »
I checked on the dough ball that was placed on the bottom shelf on my refrigerator this morning and it had already more than doubled in expansion.  I then checked my fridge temperature and it was at 42.5 degrees F on the bottom shelf.  The temperature of the fridge was warmer than I thought it would be, but I still donít understand how the dough ball expanded so much already.  My fridge was opened and shut last evening different times and I donít know if that did anything to the dough ball or not.  The air conditioner was on in my place because it was very warm in my area yesterday.  The ambient room temperature where I was mixing the dough was 80 degrees F.  The final dough temperature was lower than what was suggested.  The dough ball had been in the fridge for 14 hrs. 45 minutes when the photos were taken.   

The dough sure wasnít tacky when it was finished mixing yesterday.  To me, it felt like a regular dough.  This time I did add the ADY and salt in the last knead.  I donít know what the heck is going on with this dough ball, but think the experimental dough ball is already flawed in that it expanded too much.  The dough ball feels dry (even though it was oiled with corn oil), but there feels like there might be some air under the one place in the top of the dough ball.

Should I proceed later today to pre-bake the skin and then make the pizza, or should I start over again?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #646 on: April 11, 2013, 08:33:42 AM »
To follow-up on my last post, I was thinking about what I might have done differently and now recalled I did sift the flour before I added the flour to the water, incase it had become too compacted.  I know sifting the flour wasnít recommended.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #647 on: April 11, 2013, 08:53:26 AM »
Norma,

Did you add the ADY in dry form? I can't recall having a dough rise that fast in the refrigerator when using ADY in dry form. Around noon yesterday, I made a test dough with 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil, and as I compose this reply this morning, after about 20 hours of cold fermentation, the expansion based on the poppy seed spacing is about 68%. I used my food processor to make the dough, using the sequence flour-water-corn oil-dry ADY-salt, and the finished dough temperature at the time the dough went into the refrigerator was 76.9 degrees F. The room temperature was 70 degrees F. Yesterday, it got cool in my area, with temperatures in the 30s-40s, and remained in the 40s overnight, and my refrigerator ran cooler than normal, so that might help explain why my dough did not rise as fast as yours.

In your case, I would use the dough. It should still make a good pizza in my opinion even if it may not be the best test dough for analytical purposes.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #648 on: April 11, 2013, 09:00:33 AM »
To follow-up on my last post, I was thinking about what I might have done differently and now recalled I did sift the flour before I added the flour to the water, incase it had become too compacted.  I know sifting the flour wasnít recommended.
Norma,

It is possible that the sifting sped up the fermentation process because of the improved hydration of the flour but I don't know if that was the culprit in your case. I did not sift the flour in my case because I assumed that HRI did not do that, given that the flour used to make their dough is stored in a silo and pneumatically conveyed into their mixer bowls.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #649 on: April 11, 2013, 09:36:39 AM »
Norma,

Did you add the ADY in dry form? I can't recall having a dough rise that fast in the refrigerator when using ADY in dry form. Around noon yesterday, I made a test dough with 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil, and as I compose this reply this morning, after about 20 hours of cold fermentation, the expansion based on the poppy seed spacing is about 68%. I used my food processor to make the dough, using the sequence flour-water-corn oil-dry ADY-salt, and the finished dough temperature at the time the dough went into the refrigerator was 76.9 degrees F. The room temperature was 70 degrees F. Yesterday, it got cool in my area, with temperatures in the 30s-40s, and remained in the 40s overnight, and my refrigerator ran cooler than normal, so that might help explain why my dough did not rise as fast as yours.

In your case, I would use the dough. It should still make a good pizza in my opinion even if it may not be the best test dough for analytical purposes.

Peter

Peter,

I did add the ADY in dry form.  That was the big pack of Red Start ADY I purchased recently and had in the fridge since I opened it.  I added the ADY and salt after my dough looked mixed well.  I also used the sequence of flour-water-drizzled in corn oil-dry ADY-salt.  My fridge was probably opened and shut a lot more than yours was too.  My daughter and I are always taking something out of the fridge for us or the animals. 

Itís good to hear your test dough is behaving better than mine.  Will be interested to hear your results.

I will continue to make the pizza at your advise.  I have to run to the store to get some LMPS mozzarella, because I donít have any right now.  At least my mother likes this type of pizza, so if the results arenít really what I want she will have some leftover pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #650 on: April 11, 2013, 09:44:13 AM »
Norma,

It is possible that the sifting sped up the fermentation process because of the improved hydration of the flour but I don't know if that was the culprit in your case. I did not sift the flour in my case because I assumed that HRI did not do that, given that the flour used to make their dough is stored in a silo and pneumatically conveyed into their mixer bowls.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me you really donít know if sifting the flour was the culprit in my too fast expansion of my dough ball.  I only sifted because I had been in and out of that bag of flour many times with the measuring cup.  I sure didnít think HRI would sift their flour.

I also have been thinking over why my last experimental pizza didnít work and know I did some things that were not suggested.  I told Steve on Tuesday that I had taken pepperoni out of the freezer to defrost and just grabbed a few slices to eat plain, but added those slices to the counted out pepperoni.  When I went to make the pizza and applied the pepperoni I was one piece of pepperoni short, because I had eaten what I thought were the extra slices, but must have eaten one of the slices of pepperoni that was supposed to have been placed on the pizza.  I then went and grabbed one more piece of frozen pepperoni that I tried to heat up with my hand and then applied that one final piece to the already dressed pizza.  Steve told me I should have just forgotten about that extra slice of pepperoni.  I told Steve I wonder if the already dressed pizza sitting there with that sauce on it affected my final bake any.  I know Steve and I concluded I probably would never know that answer.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #651 on: April 11, 2013, 10:05:01 AM »
Norma,

The Armour pepperoni slices I have been using (mainly because they do not oil off as much as other retail brands available to me) weigh about 25 ounces for 14 slices. That is less than 2 grams per slice. By my estimation, the weight of a typical unbaked HRI pepperoni clone pizza is around 850 grams. So, one pepperoni slice is minuscule by comparison. The greater effect, although also possibly harmless in most cases, would be the delay in baking the pizza if, for example, you let the pizza sit around for too long to give the single pepperoni slice time to warm up. A single slice of pepperoni is so thin that even if added to the pizza while frozen would come to temperature very quickly and not affect the pizza in any way that you could detect.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #652 on: April 11, 2013, 10:24:34 AM »
Norma,

The Armour pepperoni slices I have been using (mainly because they do not oil off as much as other retail brands available to me) weigh about 25 ounces for 14 slices. That is less than 2 grams per slice. By my estimation, the weight of a typical unbaked HRI pepperoni clone pizza is around 850 grams. So, one pepperoni slice is minuscule by comparison. The greater effect, although also possibly harmless in most cases, would be the delay in baking the pizza if, for example, you let the pizza sit around for too long to give the single pepperoni slice time to warm up. A single slice of pepperoni is so thin that even if added to the pizza while frozen would come to temperature very quickly and not affect the pizza in any way that you could detect.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining that the results with using one slice less of pepperoni would be minuscule in the typical unbaked HRI clone pizza.  I can understand the greater affect might be if I left that pizza dressed sit around too long.  The pizza was sitting on the dark disk dressed for about 4 minutes, or a little longer, until I fooled around getting that extra slice and trying to warm it up.  I should have forgotten about that extra slice like Steve suggested.  I also didnít think about trying to add the slice of pepperoni frozen.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #653 on: April 11, 2013, 02:51:23 PM »
Of course my test dough ball was ovefermented.  Until I ran to our local Country Store and purchased the John F. Martin LMPS mozzarella and purchased other things I needed the dough ball had developed a big bubble on the top of the dough ball.  I just pinched the bubbles until they went down in a couple of places. The John F. Martin LMPS mozzarella I purchased in one slice cut off from a bigger loaf of mozzarella and then grated it myself.  I also purchased a small package of the same mozzarella already shedded to try at another time.  I left the dough ball in the fridge until I was ready to roll the dough ball out.  I used my wooden peel again to roll the dough on and it rolled out very easily again.  I also used the docker to dock the skin right on the wooden peel.  The temperature in my kitchen when I was rolling out the dough and letting the skin on the dark disk was 79 degrees F.  The skin went into the oven on the dark disk at 1:30 PM.   

I saw the skin wanted to make dimples again in the outside diameter of the dark disk after it sat for a little.  I left the skin sit at room temperature for 15 minutes before dressing it.  The pre-bake of the skin was about 4 minutes at about 490 degrees F and the bake of the dressed pizza was at about 20 minutes at 435 degrees F.  I did use the next higher oven rack this time to do the bake.

The crumb and rim of the pizza this time was more tender than my other attempts and I liked that very much.  There was a little bit of flakiness, but that certain right flakines is still eluding me.  The crust did taste good, but I found it odd that the dough ball didnít have the yeasty smell like it did in my last attempt with IDY.  The center slices didnít have much of any gum lines.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 03:01:30 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #654 on: April 11, 2013, 02:54:03 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #655 on: April 11, 2013, 02:57:02 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #656 on: April 11, 2013, 02:59:40 PM »
Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #657 on: April 11, 2013, 07:18:15 PM »
I know it doesn't have the flakiness we are looking for Norma but that last pizza of yours looks really, really good. Especially how you formed the outer rim fluted crust and the browning on it...it's beautiful. I would say you definitely have the time and temp down now. Nice work.  :chef:

Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #658 on: April 11, 2013, 07:50:42 PM »
I know it doesn't have the flakiness we are looking for Norma but that last pizza of yours looks really, really good. Especially how you formed the outer rim fluted crust and the browning on it...it's beautiful. I would say you definitely have the time and temp down now. Nice work.  :chef:

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for your kind comments!  My daughter and mother like this attempt the best so far.  That dang flakiness is still driving me crazy on how to achieve it.  :-D I am also wondering why the outside edges of the skin get those dimples when the skin sits on the disk.   

Norma
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Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #659 on: April 12, 2013, 12:51:54 AM »
wow Norma!  another awesome effort!! looks delicious!  thanks for all the pics and excellent documentation of your trials.  that takes a lot of effort! i really appreciate all you do.  i got those same bumps i think because i was fluting the rim on the disc and i must have put some downward pressure on the skin while forming it. so they only showed up on the edge. thanks again!!


 

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