Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 115496 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #625 on: April 06, 2013, 11:20:54 AM »
For this other ball I have do you recommend room temp. before rolling or should I just move on to trying something new?

Bob
Bob,

I think I would still work the dough while cold but do everything on the flour-dusted wooden peel, including the docking. Then, I think I would slide the docked skin onto the disk or cutter pan and form the fluted rim, but being careful as not to push the flat part of the skin into the holes of the disk or cutter pan. If needed, I would tug the edges of the skin at this time if it needs more uniform rounding. I would then let the docked, fluted skin rest for about 15 minutes on the disk or cutter pan at room temperature, readjusting the fluted rim (and skin size) if necessary. Then I would do the pre-bake. If the dough is still cool at that point, then you may need to pre-bake a bit longer to compensate for that coolness. Alternatively, you can use a higher pre-bake temperature, maybe 425 degrees F.

As somewhat an aside, I took a closer look at the workers shown in the photo at page 24 at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. You will see three workers in that photo. There is a person standing next to wheeled racks of dough balls in trays, and there is a worker against the back wall. I am not exactly sure what she is doing but at some point there are 40-lb pieces of dough that come out of the dough chunker and formed into dough balls and weighed. Those dough balls apparently end up in the racks. Finally, there is a third person working the line into the hot dough presses. I suspect that there is another worker on the other side of the line to be sure that the dough balls properly enter the hot press area but was not shown in the photo. The point of all of this is that the dough balls do get some fermentation before they head into the dough presses. There is nothing in the article to suggest that there is any cold fermentation, but that may have been an innocent omission. Or it might have been intentional. We just don't know. But for a facility that goes through 20,000-30,000 pounds of flour a day and can make 120,000 6" pizzas, 100,000 10" pizzas or 120,000 12" pizzas a day, that would take a lot of cold storage capacity. That makes me believe that HRI uses continuously produced dough balls that get some ambient temperature fermentation and feed into the hot press area shown in the photo. By contrast, for the HRI pizzerias, we have been told that there is cold fermentation.

Peter


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #626 on: April 06, 2013, 11:41:53 AM »
That is a lot of pizza pie's!  :o  No wonder they went into the frozen pizza business. Maybe we should consider doing that Pete-zza.  8)

fwiw, I didn't notice any big taste difference with that 3 day dough(maybe cause I over cooked the crap out of it).   It's no secret that many Chi-town thin pizza place's use a same day dough(it is mainly merely a carrier to bring on that great Premio sausage flavah :)).

Thanks for the continuing tips Peter. Until we get closer and then need some hard weight data would it be acceptable for me to switch over to 10in. pie's for now?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #627 on: April 06, 2013, 11:52:32 AM »
Thanks for the continuing tips Peter. Until we get closer and then need some hard weight data would it be acceptable for me to switch over to 10in. pie's for now?

Bob

Bob,

I would prefer to stick with the 12" size so as not to introduce another variable. Also, the 12" size is the one many of us have become familiar with. It is also the size that I dismantled to get weight data. If you'd like to make a 10" size on the side, I can convert the data for you for the cheese, sauce, pepperoni, etc. for that size, although I don't know if HRI uses proportional amounts of everything it puts on its pizzas.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #628 on: April 06, 2013, 12:06:25 PM »
Bob,

I would prefer to stick with the 12" size so as not to introduce another variable. Also, the 12" size is the one many of us have become familiar with. It is also the size that I dismantled to get weight data. If you'd like to make a 10" size on the side, I can convert the data for you for the cheese, sauce, pepperoni, etc. for that size, although I don't know if HRI uses proportional amounts of everything it puts on its pizzas.

Peter
Well, I'm just thinking in terms of getting the dough dialed in. I can eyeball cheese and sauce amounts on this type of pizza no matter what the size and know I will be very close, at least in terms as to how they will effect the bake of the crust.
I'd like to step up and do one of these a day to see if this crust is doable. But my dog an I can only eat so much HRI pizza Peter... ;D    That's why I'm asking about 10in for now and if dough paydirt is found I can always go back to 12 in order to dial in topping weights. Make sense?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #629 on: April 06, 2013, 12:13:23 PM »
Bob,

That's fine. I, too, can only eat so much pizza, whether it is an HRI clone pizza or any other kind. That is why I space my experiments.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #630 on: April 06, 2013, 12:17:33 PM »
Yeah but Bob is on a mission man...this dough has got me slightly ticked off!   8)
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Offline redox

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #631 on: April 06, 2013, 01:40:05 PM »
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:41:55 PM by redox »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #632 on: April 06, 2013, 03:19:15 PM »
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
Jay,

It seems that a dough that is used cold is more amenable to the formation of an upstanding fluted rim, even with a hydration value of 53% that Bob has been testing recently. The skin should also roll out to size quite easily. So, in your case, you might do the same as Bob did in forming his last skin. 

As for the use of an unperforated 12" cutter pan, I think it is worth a try. HRI says that they use perforated disks to "allow moisture and heat to penetrate the crust". However, if it turns out that the bottom crust does not brown sufficiently using your unperforated cutter pan, you may have to slip the pizza out of the pan at some point and onto a rack where you can get more bottom heat. Since the unperforated cutter pan will take longer to heat up than a perforated one, you may also find it necessary to move the pizza higher up in the oven at some point (maybe toward the end of the final bake) if the top needs more heat.

If you decide to try your unperforated cutter pan, you should be able to dock the skin right in the cutter pan. Once you have formed the fluted rim, you can let the dough proof for about 15 minutes before pre-baking. If needed, you can readjust the rim and pizza size after that rest period.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #633 on: April 06, 2013, 03:29:36 PM »
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
Jay,
I'm doing my next the same way you are discussing...we'll have dueling pizza's.  :)
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Offline redox

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #634 on: April 06, 2013, 06:22:08 PM »
My pizza skill are pretty primitive so I'll concede right now...unless I can trick you into putting on these handcuffs.  >:D

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #635 on: April 06, 2013, 07:06:11 PM »
Yeah but Bob is on a mission man...this dough has got me slightly ticked off!   8)

Bob,

I thought I was on the mission too, but that dough got me ticked off, at least for a little while.   :-D 

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #636 on: April 10, 2013, 10:31:24 AM »
I donít think these pictures were posted before of Home Run Inn pizzas (but if they were, just ignore or delete this post), but if the photos are clicked though the crust looks very light in color and there might be a gum line in the pizzas.  If interested, the photos might have to be accessed by clicking the Southside Chicago tag to be able to click though the photos. I am not sure how that works in trying to post the link to the photos.  These photos were posted by Eddie from Chicago on Flicker.  In the photo of the delicious homemade Italian garlic bread with Marinara sauce is looked at there appears to me there is a gum line.

Chicago's famous Home Run Inn Pizza restaurant at 6221 South Archer Avenue in Chicago;s Garfield Ridge neighborhood. Chicago Illinois USA. April 2009.

If I decide to attempt another Home Run Inn dough and pizza what hydration is recommended?

Edit:  For me I had to click on the older tab to be able to see the pictures.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 10:33:23 AM by norma427 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #637 on: April 10, 2013, 11:34:14 AM »
Norma,

On the matter of the hydration value to use, I was hoping to get the latest feedback from Bob for the remaining dough ball that he had prepared, or so I thought. However, I am beginning to think that the extent of fermentation may be as critical as the hydration since a long fermentation may cause a weakening of the gluten matrix and make the dough softer overall. There are ways of offsetting the weakening of the gluten matrix that come to mind such as using a lower hydration value, reducing the amount of IDY (but still above 2%), using ADY in dry form (above 2% and maybe as high as 2.5%), using a longer knead in order to more fully develop and strengthen the gluten, or shorten the fermentation window. I think the desired end result is a dough that can be formed into a skin with a fluted rim that will remain erect and where the flat part of the skin does not sink into the holes of the perforated disk or cutter pan. Working the dough while cold should also help and yet be able to withstand a 15-20 minute rest while on the disk or cutter pan.

With a pizza as shown in the photos with sausage, pepperoni and peppers, and especially at the larger size noted in the photos, and a 425-450 degrees F oven temperature, I think it is perhaps inevitable that there will be a gum line, especially in the middle part of the crust.

I found that clicking on the HRI photo at the webpage you referenced allowed me to view all of the other HRI photos.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #638 on: April 10, 2013, 12:04:49 PM »
Sorry Peter, forgot about that one. After 6 days it was flattened out and very wet with water all over it. So I didn't make a HRI with it.
fwiw, I divided it in half and reballed. Rolled each 7 1/2oz ball out to 12in and made probably the tastiest thin crust pizza I've had in a while.

I'm going to take a close look at your latest post and mix something up this afternoon.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #639 on: April 10, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »
Sorry Peter, forgot about that one. After 6 days it was flattened out and very wet with water all over it. So I didn't make a HRI with it.
Bob,

No need to apologize. Actually, I'm glad to get the feedback in light of my concern about the effects of a long fermentation on a dough such as the HRI clone dough. In the various articles I read about HRI's dough, the window of fermentation specified in the articles ranged from 12 hours to about three days. That is a pretty wide spread, and one that I would imagine would result in significant variations in the pizzas made in their pizzerias. 

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #640 on: April 10, 2013, 12:24:55 PM »
Norma,

On the matter of the hydration value to use, I was hoping to get the latest feedback from Bob for the remaining dough ball that he had prepared, or so I thought. However, I am beginning to think that the extent of fermentation may be as critical as the hydration since a long fermentation may cause a weakening of the gluten matrix and make the dough softer overall. There are ways of offsetting the weakening of the gluten matrix that come to mind such as using a lower hydration value, reducing the amount of IDY (but still above 2%), using ADY in dry form (above 2% and maybe as high as 2.5%), using a longer knead in order to more fully develop and strengthen the gluten, or shorten the fermentation window. I think the desired end result is a dough that can be formed into a skin with a fluted rim that will remain erect and where the flat part of the skin does not sink into the holes of the perforated disk or cutter pan. Working the dough while cold should also help and yet be able to withstand a 15-20 minute rest while on the disk or cutter pan.

With a pizza as shown in the photos with sausage, pepperoni and peppers, and especially at the larger size noted in the photos, and a 425-450 degrees F oven temperature, I think it is perhaps inevitable that there will be a gum line, especially in the middle part of the crust.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts.  Do you have any recommendations on how long to try and cold ferment the dough and also what hydration I should try?  I can try ADY if you want me to try that.  I have a full bag of Red Star ADY. 

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #641 on: April 10, 2013, 12:26:02 PM »
And I'll do an IDY.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #642 on: April 10, 2013, 12:58:51 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts.  Do you have any recommendations on how long to try and cold ferment the dough and also what hydration I should try?  I can try ADY if you want me to try that.  I have a full bag of Red Star ADY. 
Norma,

Why don't you try 50% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY (mainly for flavor), 19% corn oil, 2% salt, and monitor the expansion of the dough. If the dough about doubles within a day, then that might be a good time to use it. Otherwise, look to use it the next day. I would not want to see the dough triple in volume, although it would still work but may not have adequate strength.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #643 on: April 10, 2013, 01:59:33 PM »
Norma,

Why don't you try 50% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY (mainly for flavor), 19% corn oil, 2% salt, and monitor the expansion of the dough. If the dough about doubles within a day, then that might be a good time to use it. Otherwise, look to use it the next day. I would not want to see the dough triple in volume, although it would still work but may not have adequate strength.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting what to try next.  I will place the poppy seeds on the dough ball again to monitor the expansion and will wait until the dough about doubles to make the next attempt.

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #644 on: April 10, 2013, 05:21:46 PM »
I mixed another HRI clone dough attempt and used the instructions Peter posted at Reply
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715
for the mixing sequences of ingredients.  The Kitchen Aid mixer did a good job and no extra flour had to be added, but the first mix with the flour and water sure had the mixer bowl trying to jump off where it sits on the mixer arms.

I did scale the dough ball back to 425 grams, but now see I made a mistake with what TF I used in the Expanded Dough Calculation Tool. 

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #645 on: April 11, 2013, 08:14:15 AM »
I checked on the dough ball that was placed on the bottom shelf on my refrigerator this morning and it had already more than doubled in expansion.  I then checked my fridge temperature and it was at 42.5 degrees F on the bottom shelf.  The temperature of the fridge was warmer than I thought it would be, but I still donít understand how the dough ball expanded so much already.  My fridge was opened and shut last evening different times and I donít know if that did anything to the dough ball or not.  The air conditioner was on in my place because it was very warm in my area yesterday.  The ambient room temperature where I was mixing the dough was 80 degrees F.  The final dough temperature was lower than what was suggested.  The dough ball had been in the fridge for 14 hrs. 45 minutes when the photos were taken.   

The dough sure wasnít tacky when it was finished mixing yesterday.  To me, it felt like a regular dough.  This time I did add the ADY and salt in the last knead.  I donít know what the heck is going on with this dough ball, but think the experimental dough ball is already flawed in that it expanded too much.  The dough ball feels dry (even though it was oiled with corn oil), but there feels like there might be some air under the one place in the top of the dough ball.

Should I proceed later today to pre-bake the skin and then make the pizza, or should I start over again?

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #646 on: April 11, 2013, 08:33:42 AM »
To follow-up on my last post, I was thinking about what I might have done differently and now recalled I did sift the flour before I added the flour to the water, incase it had become too compacted.  I know sifting the flour wasnít recommended.

Norma

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #647 on: April 11, 2013, 08:53:26 AM »
Norma,

Did you add the ADY in dry form? I can't recall having a dough rise that fast in the refrigerator when using ADY in dry form. Around noon yesterday, I made a test dough with 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil, and as I compose this reply this morning, after about 20 hours of cold fermentation, the expansion based on the poppy seed spacing is about 68%. I used my food processor to make the dough, using the sequence flour-water-corn oil-dry ADY-salt, and the finished dough temperature at the time the dough went into the refrigerator was 76.9 degrees F. The room temperature was 70 degrees F. Yesterday, it got cool in my area, with temperatures in the 30s-40s, and remained in the 40s overnight, and my refrigerator ran cooler than normal, so that might help explain why my dough did not rise as fast as yours.

In your case, I would use the dough. It should still make a good pizza in my opinion even if it may not be the best test dough for analytical purposes.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #648 on: April 11, 2013, 09:00:33 AM »
To follow-up on my last post, I was thinking about what I might have done differently and now recalled I did sift the flour before I added the flour to the water, incase it had become too compacted.  I know sifting the flour wasnít recommended.
Norma,

It is possible that the sifting sped up the fermentation process because of the improved hydration of the flour but I don't know if that was the culprit in your case. I did not sift the flour in my case because I assumed that HRI did not do that, given that the flour used to make their dough is stored in a silo and pneumatically conveyed into their mixer bowls.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #649 on: April 11, 2013, 09:36:39 AM »
Norma,

Did you add the ADY in dry form? I can't recall having a dough rise that fast in the refrigerator when using ADY in dry form. Around noon yesterday, I made a test dough with 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil, and as I compose this reply this morning, after about 20 hours of cold fermentation, the expansion based on the poppy seed spacing is about 68%. I used my food processor to make the dough, using the sequence flour-water-corn oil-dry ADY-salt, and the finished dough temperature at the time the dough went into the refrigerator was 76.9 degrees F. The room temperature was 70 degrees F. Yesterday, it got cool in my area, with temperatures in the 30s-40s, and remained in the 40s overnight, and my refrigerator ran cooler than normal, so that might help explain why my dough did not rise as fast as yours.

In your case, I would use the dough. It should still make a good pizza in my opinion even if it may not be the best test dough for analytical purposes.

Peter

Peter,

I did add the ADY in dry form.  That was the big pack of Red Start ADY I purchased recently and had in the fridge since I opened it.  I added the ADY and salt after my dough looked mixed well.  I also used the sequence of flour-water-drizzled in corn oil-dry ADY-salt.  My fridge was probably opened and shut a lot more than yours was too.  My daughter and I are always taking something out of the fridge for us or the animals. 

Itís good to hear your test dough is behaving better than mine.  Will be interested to hear your results.

I will continue to make the pizza at your advise.  I have to run to the store to get some LMPS mozzarella, because I donít have any right now.  At least my mother likes this type of pizza, so if the results arenít really what I want she will have some leftover pizza.

Norma


 

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