Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 85668 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #660 on: April 12, 2013, 07:17:52 AM »
Norma,

I agree with Bob and Terry. I think you did a terrific job. The fluted rim held up, the finished pizza size was on the money, and the crust coloration was almost perfect. Next time, if there is a next time, you might try repeating the pizza but do not use a pre-bake. Do everything the same but go from proofing the skin on the disk (about 15 minutes) and then dressing and baking the pizza. That is the method that the articles say is used in HRI's pizzerias. I would use 425 degrees F or thereabouts for baking the pizza, and use the middle of the oven, as I have been doing to keep the bottom of the crust from browning up to fast. The long, slow bake should also help create a crispier crust. If you are a fan of sausage, you might try a pepperoni and sausage pizza. That combination should produce a very satisfying pizza in my opinion. I say that even though the crust may not be overly flaky. But I can pretty much assure you that you, and Mom as well, will like that pizza better than an HRI frozen pizza. I have already seen that from the pizzas I have made as part of my experimentation. Moreover, if you have leftovers, I think you will find that the crust will become more crunchy after reheating the party cut squares. If you want suggestions on quantities of cheese and toppings to use, let me know.

I agree with Terry that the dimpling at the outer edges of the pizza was most likely the result of applying pressure to the outer edge of the skin while forming the fluted rim. That can happen to an HRI skin also, as you can see from the bottom crust photo in the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued. While you are at it, note the similarity of the bottom crust coloration of your pizza to what the Slice photo shows. The key thing is to keep the skin from getting too soft such that it sinks into the holes in the disk (or perforated cutter pan, if used).

Like you, I have never had a real HRI pizza, but I see no reason why you can't get something of comparable quality out of your home oven. I think more work needs to be done on the dough formulation but the good news in my opinion is that you can get satisfactory results even when the dough has endured a long fermentation.

Peter



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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #661 on: April 12, 2013, 08:10:56 AM »
I did add the ADY in dry form.  That was the big pack of Red Start ADY I purchased recently and had in the fridge since I opened it.  I added the ADY and salt after my dough looked mixed well.  I also used the sequence of flour-water-drizzled in corn oil-dry ADY-salt.  My fridge was probably opened and shut a lot more than yours was too.  My daughter and I are always taking something out of the fridge for us or the animals. 

It’s good to hear your test dough is behaving better than mine.  Will be interested to hear your results.
Norma,

To give you an update on my latest HRI clone dough experiment, the latest HRI clone dough (with 51% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY, 2% salt, and 19% corn oil) increased in volume by about 11% after 9 hours of cold fermentation, about 68% after 19 hours, 95% after 24 hours, and by about 126% after 32 hours. Had I not spent a good part of yesterday working on my taxes, I might have used the dough to make a pizza. But, at the same time, I wanted to see how the dough would hold up through today. This morning, after a total elapsed time of 43 hours,  the dough is still at 126%, although I think it rose to about 150% and fell back to 126%. Yet the dough has been firm to the touch at all times. I don't know if HRI is using dry ADY to make its dough but it appears to be a good way to control the fermentation of the dough while adding more flavor. I think my next experiment will be to use less ADY to see what effect that has on the fermentation. That might allow for even better control of the fermentation process.

As I mentioned earlier, I have strong suspicions that HRI does not use the same dough production and management in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. HRI insists that it uses the same recipes in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. That is certainly true as to the cheese, sauce and toppings (like sausage and pepperoni) but the term "recipe" as applied to the dough is a very broad and loose term that can mean a lot of different things. For example, it can mean that the same ingredients are used (i.e., wheat flour, water, corn oil, yeast, salt), but that the amounts can be different, and also that the dough preparation and management can be different. If I am correct on this point, HRI may be using its plants to make two dough formulations, one for its frozen pizzas and one for its pizzerias. The facility used to make the dough for its pizzerias would be separate from the facilities used to make the frozen pizzas so that the pizzeria dough will be free of the governmental regulations and inspection that apply to the frozen pizza side of the business. In my research, I looked for signs that HRI was using cold fermentation of its dough for its frozen pizzas but I could not find anything to suggest that. Because of its huge volumes in the frozen pizza plants, I think that HRI is using large amounts of yeast consistent with the ingredients and quantities recited on its packaging materials for its frozen pizzas, along with modest fermentation times at ambient temperatures, most likely in a controled environment to assure consistent performance and quality, to produce the dough for its frozen pizzas.

Peter

« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 08:14:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #662 on: April 12, 2013, 08:23:15 AM »
wow Norma!  another awesome effort!! looks delicious!  thanks for all the pics and excellent documentation of your trials.  that takes a lot of effort! i really appreciate all you do.  i got those same bumps i think because i was fluting the rim on the disc and i must have put some downward pressure on the skin while forming it. so they only showed up on the edge. thanks again!!

Terry,

Thanks for your kind comments! 

Interesting to hear that you got the same bumps while you were fluting on the disk.  I wonder why I got them on the edges when I used the dough cold right out of the fridge and fluted right on my wooden peel.  I would have thought the center would have gotten those bumps before the outside rim would.  The skin docked and fluted on my wooden peel easily slid off the wooden peel onto the dark disk.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #663 on: April 12, 2013, 08:38:47 AM »
Norma,

I agree with Bob and Terry. I think you did a terrific job. The fluted rim held up, the finished pizza size was on the money, and the crust coloration was almost perfect. Next time, if there is a next time, you might try repeating the pizza but do not use a pre-bake. Do everything the same but go from proofing the skin on the disk (about 15 minutes) and then dressing and baking the pizza. That is the method that the articles say is used in HRI's pizzerias. I would use 425 degrees F or thereabouts for baking the pizza, and use the middle of the oven, as I have been doing to keep the bottom of the crust from browning up to fast. The long, slow bake should also help create a crispier crust. If you are a fan of sausage, you might try a pepperoni and sausage pizza. That combination should produce a very satisfying pizza in my opinion. I say that even though the crust may not be overly flaky. But I can pretty much assure you that you, and Mom as well, will like that pizza better than an HRI frozen pizza. I have already seen that from the pizzas I have made as part of my experimentation. Moreover, if you have leftovers, I think you will find that the crust will become more crunchy after reheating the party cut squares. If you want suggestions on quantities of cheese and toppings to use, let me know.

I agree with Terry that the dimpling at the outer edges of the pizza was most likely the result of applying pressure to the outer edge of the skin while forming the fluted rim. That can happen to an HRI skin also, as you can see from the bottom crust photo in the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued. While you are at it, note the similarity of the bottom crust coloration of your pizza to what the Slice photo shows. The key thing is to keep the skin from getting too soft such that it sinks into the holes in the disk (or perforated cutter pan, if used).

Like you, I have never had a real HRI pizza, but I see no reason why you can't get something of comparable quality out of your home oven. I think more work needs to be done on the dough formulation but the good news in my opinion is that you can get satisfactory results even when the dough has endured a long fermentation.

Peter


Peter,

There will be a next time.  I am always curious about what can be done, but sometimes I get a little discouraged if something doesn’t go right.  I then think about what I might have done wrong and with your help in figuring out what I might have done wrong usually give it another try.

Thanks for telling me what to try the next time.  I can see why a long, slow bake might create a crisper crust.  I am a fan of sausage and think I still have some of Bob’s favorite kind of sausage frozen in my freezer.   I probably won’t make another attempt until next week, but yes I would like some suggestions of quantities of cheese and toppings to use. 

Thanks for referencing the Slice article again for a look at the bottom crust photo.  I see the bottom crust coloration.  That slice sure looks crisper than my bottom crust did.

What kind of work do you think needs done on the dough formulation?  After your experimental HRI pizza will you know more?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #664 on: April 12, 2013, 08:57:19 AM »
Norma,

To give you an update on my latest HRI clone dough experiment, the latest HRI clone dough (with 51% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY, 2% salt, and 19% corn oil) increased in volume by about 11% after 9 hours of cold fermentation, about 68% after 19 hours, 95% after 24 hours, and by about 126% after 32 hours. Had I not spent a good part of yesterday working on my taxes, I might have used the dough to make a pizza. But, at the same time, I wanted to see how the dough would hold up through today. This morning, after a total elapsed time of 43 hours,  the dough is still at 126%, although I think it rose to about 150% and fell back to 126%. Yet the dough has been firm to the touch at all times. I don't know if HRI is using dry ADY to make its dough but it appears to be a good way to control the fermentation of the dough while adding more flavor. I think my next experiment will be to use less ADY to see what effect that has on the fermentation. That might allow for even better control of the fermentation process.

As I mentioned earlier, I have strong suspicions that HRI does not use the same dough production and management in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. HRI insists that it uses the same recipes in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. That is certainly true as to the cheese, sauce and toppings (like sausage and pepperoni) but the term "recipe" as applied to the dough is a very broad and loose term that can mean a lot of different things. For example, it can mean that the same ingredients are used (i.e., wheat flour, water, corn oil, yeast, salt), but that the amounts can be different, and also that the dough preparation and management can be different. If I am correct on this point, HRI may be using its plants to make two dough formulations, one for its frozen pizzas and one for its pizzerias. The facility used to make the dough for its pizzerias would be separate from the facilities used to make the frozen pizzas so that the pizzeria dough will be free of the governmental regulations and inspection that apply to the frozen pizza side of the business. In my research, I looked for signs that HRI was using cold fermentation of its dough for its frozen pizzas but I could not find anything to suggest that. Because of its huge volumes in the frozen pizza plants, I think that HRI is using large amounts of yeast consistent with the ingredients and quantities recited on its packaging materials for its frozen pizzas, along with modest fermentation times at ambient temperatures, most likely in a controled environment to assure consistent performance and quality, to produce the dough for its frozen pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for giving an update on your latest HRI clone dough experiment.  Your clone dough sure behaved better than mine.  Interesting to hear your dough ball has remained firm to the touch at all times. 

I recall that you did mention earlier that you have strong suspicions that HRI does not use the same dough production and management in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias.  Interesting to hear that the “recipe” as applied to the dough for HRI pizzerias might be different in terms of dough preparation and management.  I didn’t think about HRI using a separate facilities at the same place to make the dough so it is free from governmental regulations and inspections, such as applies to the frozen pizza side of the business.  I can understand that it wouldn’t be feasible to use to use the same fermentation methods for its frozen HRI pizzas.

Do you know what differences that could be if a sheeter versus a rolling pin is used in the crust texture?  I have wondered about that. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #665 on: April 12, 2013, 09:52:53 AM »
Norma,

I am a fan of sausage and think I still have some of Bob’s favorite kind of sausage frozen in my freezer.   I probably won’t make another attempt until next week, but yes I would like some suggestions of quantities of cheese and toppings to use.
I am not sure which Premio sausage you have but the last time I used two links of the Johnsonville Hot sausage. From a weight standpoint, I wanted to use about 7 ounces of sausage. The sausage out of the two Johnsonville links, with some added fennel seeds and black pepper (Craig's recommended modifications), came to 7.3 ounces. For the low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, I would use around 6-7 ounces (diced if you want to be true to the HRI method). For the pepperoni, I would use 14 slices, but you can add more slices if you'd like and maybe back off a bit on the sausage to offset. You can also add some diced green peppers if you'd like. The objective is to keep the total weight in line with what HRI uses in making its frozen pizzas. As with the other HRI clones, I would use a 15-ounce dough ball, or maybe one that is a bit less to allow for the use of bench flour if needed at the time the dough ball is formed into a skin. For the sauce, I would use around 4 ounces, again to keep the total weight in check. As you might expect, the more things that are on the pizza, the longer it will take to bake it, and you may not end up with the same crust characteristics as one with fewer toppings. You might also want to keep an oven rack near the top of the oven in case you find a need to move the pizza to that rack position to get more top heat to brown the cheese more if desired. That is what I do.

What kind of work do you think needs done on the dough formulation?  After your experimental HRI pizza will you know more?
I am thinking along the lines of using less ADY, also in dry form but still more than 2%, and maybe increasing the formula hydration back to around 53%, which is what I took away from my analysis of the HRI Nutrition Facts. Essentially what I'd like to see is if it is possible to come up with a dough that will ferment sufficiently after a day or two yet be firm enough to allow a good fluted, upstanding rim to be formed and for the skin not to sink into the holes in the disk (or cutter pan). If that result does not materialize, then I would be inclined to lower the hydration again. But, to date, I am liking the idea of using dry ADY because of the way it helps slow down the rate of fermentation so that the dough can be better managed. But even when it does not behave that way, as you discovered, the dough is still usable. I don't have to tell you how large yeast quantities pose their own set of challenges, as you know from your work with the Buddy's clones. I am just trying to tame a wild horse.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #666 on: April 12, 2013, 10:14:00 AM »
Do you know what differences that could be if a sheeter versus a rolling pin is used in the crust texture?  I have wondered about that. 

Norma,

As I understand it, the term "sheeter" technically refers to a machine that forms a continuous sheet from which individual skins are cut, and that a machine that forms a skin from a dough ball is called a "roller".  Either way, I would say that a sheeter or roller is a perhaps a more efficient way of forming a skin than a rolling pin in a home setting. But either machine would certainly be a much better way of forming a skin if it were to be laminated, as DNA Dan has pointed out many times before on the forum.

The distinction is much greater between a dough press and a sheeter or roller (or rolling pin) because of the way that the dough press affects the cell structure of the skin. A good article that discusses the differences is one by Tom Lehmann at http://www.pmq.com/July-August-2005/In-Lehmanns-Terms/. These differences gave me pause to wonder whether a large tortilla press might be a better way to form a skin than using a rolling pin.

BTW, recently I looked at several videos on dough presses from which I learned that cold dough balls can be used with certain hot dough presses. I wondered about that after I had suggested forming the HRI clone skins from dough that was cold rather than warmed up at room temperature for an hour or so.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #667 on: April 12, 2013, 10:41:04 AM »
Norma,
I am not sure which Premio sausage you have but the last time I used two links of the Johnsonville Hot sausage. From a weight standpoint, I wanted to use about 7 ounces of sausage. The sausage out of the two Johnsonville links, with some added fennel seeds and black pepper (Craig's recommended modifications), came to 7.3 ounces. For the low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, I would use around 6-7 ounces (diced if you want to be true to the HRI method). For the pepperoni, I would use 14 slices, but you can add more slices if you'd like and maybe back off a bit on the sausage to offset. You can also add some diced green peppers if you'd like. The objective is to keep the total weight in line with what HRI uses in making its frozen pizzas. As with the other HRI clones, I would use a 15-ounce dough ball, or maybe one that is a bit less to allow for the use of bench flour if needed at the time the dough ball is formed into a skin. For the sauce, I would use around 4 ounces, again to keep the total weight in check. As you might expect, the more things that are on the pizza, the longer it will take to bake it, and you may not end up with the same crust characteristics as one with fewer toppings. You might also want to keep an oven rack near the top of the oven in case you find a need to move the pizza to that rack position to get more top heat to brown the cheese more if desired. That is what I do.
I am thinking along the lines of using less ADY, also in dry form but still more than 2%, and maybe increasing the formula hydration back to around 53%, which is what I took away from my analysis of the HRI Nutrition Facts. Essentially what I'd like to see is if it is possible to come up with a dough that will ferment sufficiently after a day or two yet be firm enough to allow a good fluted, upstanding rim to be formed and for the skin not to sink into the holes in the disk (or cutter pan). If that result does not materialize, then I would be inclined to lower the hydration again. But, to date, I am liking the idea of using dry ADY because of the way it helps slow down the rate of fermentation so that the dough can be better managed. But even when it does not behave that way, as you discovered, the dough is still usable. I don't have to tell you how large yeast quantities pose their own set of challenges, as you know from your work with the Buddy's clones. I am just trying to tame a wild horse.

Peter


Peter,

The Premio sausage I have is the Sweet Italian sausage that I posted a picture of at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171


I also think I have some Johnsville sausage, but I would need to dig in my freezer to see if I still have any left.  I have used Craig’s recipe with Johnsonville sausage and liked it very much.  Thanks for posting what amounts of toppings to try with sausage.  I also like green peppers.  I can understand that if more toppings are used that the bake time will be longer.  Thanks for telling me to keep a top rack on my oven also in case there is a need to move the pizza up to get the cheese to brown better.

Thanks also for telling me what lines you are thinking about for the next formulation.  I am also liking the use of dry ADY and I want to see if I can manage the dough ball better the next time.  I agree with you that when using a large yeast amount it poses its own set of challenges.  I have to chuckle when you posted that is it like trying to tame a wild horse.  :-D  I agree, and did see those set challenges with the Buddy’s clone dough, until you helped me tame it.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #668 on: April 12, 2013, 10:58:46 AM »
Norma,

As I understand it, the term "sheeter" technically refers to a machine that forms a continuous sheet from which individual skins are cut, and that a machine that forms a skin from a dough ball is called a "roller".  Either way, I would say that a sheeter or roller is a perhaps a more efficient way of forming a skin than a rolling pin in a home setting. But either machine would certainly be a much better way of forming a skin if it were to be laminated, as DNA Dan has pointed out many times before on the forum.

The distinction is much greater between a dough press and a sheeter or roller (or rolling pin) because of the way that the dough press affects the cell structure of the skin. A good article that discusses the differences is one by Tom Lehmann at http://www.pmq.com/July-August-2005/In-Lehmanns-Terms/. These differences gave me pause to wonder whether a large tortilla press might be a better way to form a skin than using a rolling pin.

BTW, recently I looked at several videos on dough presses from which I learned that cold dough balls can be used with certain hot dough presses. I wondered about that after I had suggested forming the HRI clone skins from dough that was cold rather than warmed up at room temperature for an hour or so.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for explaining what you understand about the terms “sheeter” and “roller”.  I do recall what DNA Dan and fazzari posted about forming skins using the laminated method. 

Thanks for linking the good article from Tom Lehmann.  I don’t know if a large tortilla press might be a better way to form the skin than using a rolling pin, but that might work.  I did have one of those large tortilla presses, but sold it at a garage sale a number of years ago.  I also would have liked to have tried that hot dough press I sold. 

I really don’t think I am ready to attempt to use a dough ball that is warmed up yet.  I saw the challenge it might cause in those bumps in the bottom skin even when I used the cold dough ball to form into a skin by rolling. That skin warmed up pretty fast while rolling, even though I didn’t need to roll much.  Since you posted before that those hot dough presses can change the skin, it doesn’t seem possible that would work for me.  Maybe you want to try that.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #669 on: April 12, 2013, 11:17:15 AM »
Norma,

I found that using a rolling pin isn't really necessary, and that the skin can be formed completely by hand. The advantage of the rolling pin, like the roller that HRI used in the early days, is that the skin has a uniform thickness.

Peter


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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #670 on: April 12, 2013, 11:48:33 AM »
Norma,

I found that using a rolling pin isn't really necessary, and that the skin can be formed completely by hand. The advantage of the rolling pin, like the roller that HRI used in the early days, is that the skin has a uniform thickness.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that using a rolling pin isn’t really necessary, but a rolling pin is good to form a skin with a uniform thickness.  I thought a few of my attempted doughs could be stretched by hand, but didn’t want to try that because I was unsure on what kind of results I would get.

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #671 on: April 12, 2013, 02:55:43 PM »
I didn't plan to drop out of this testing just when it was getting very interesting but a severe case of what I'm assuming is "stomach flu" had me driving the porcelain bus more often than the skinniest model on a Paris runway. Hope to be able to contribute when pizza starts to sound good again. Hopefully, in a few days.

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #672 on: April 12, 2013, 05:41:39 PM »
I didn't plan to drop out of this testing just when it was getting very interesting but a severe case of what I'm assuming is "stomach flu" had me driving the porcelain bus more often than the skinniest model on a Paris runway. Hope to be able to contribute when pizza starts to sound good again. Hopefully, in a few days.
Ditto. I just got back from the doctors office....Bronchitis.  >:(
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #673 on: April 13, 2013, 11:19:39 AM »
Norma,

The results are in for my latest HRI clone dough experiment. To recapitulate, this is the dough with Gold Medal unbleached Aleppo's flour, 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (used in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil.

I used the dough yesterday after about two days of cold fermentation. At that point, based on the poppy seed spacing, the dough had expanded in volume by about 126%. That was at about the same point as it was a day before although, as I noted before, it had risen more than that at one point but fell back to its final value of 126%. At all times the dough was firm to the touch even though I could see from the bubbling at the bottom and sides of my glass storage container that there had been a lot of fermentation. Forming the dough into a skin was very easy. However, this time I did not use a rolling pin. I formed the skin entirely by hand. The fluted rim formed easily and it remained upstanding during the 15 minutes that the skin (docked) proofed on my perforated disk. To further simulate the methods used in HRI's pizzerias, I dressed and baked the pizza right after the 15-minute proof period. In other words, I did not pre-bake the crust.

I intentionally loaded up the pizza with mozzarella cheese (diced low moisture, part-skim Precious mozzarella cheese), sauce and toppings in order to see how that would affect the bake. In this case, the toppings were sausage (modified Johnsonville Hot sausage), pepperoni (14 slices, as usual), and diced green peppers. The total unbaked pizza weight was 35.63 ounces. As it turned out, that weight posed some problems baking the pizza in my home oven. I started by baking the pizza in the middle rack position of my oven at 425 degrees F. It remained there for about 12 minutes. The bottom crust achieved the desired color in some places but not as much in the middle. To get more top heat to cook and slightly brown the cheese, I moved the pizza to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute and a half. This bake protocol reminded me of how a home oven is not a conveyor oven. It may well turn out that to bake an HRI clone pizza with a lot of things on it in my home oven, it may be necessary to use a pre-bake of the crust, just as you did with your last HRI clone. But, this is how we learn.

The finished baked weight of the pizza was 33.16 ounces. That represented a loss during baking of almost 7%. Had I used a higher oven temperature and a longer bake, I am sure that the losses would have been greater.

Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out very well. However, the rim was not as distinct as your last pizza. I would say that it looked more like the crust as shown in the flicker.com website that your referenced recently at A delicious thin crust Chicago style pizza topped with sausage, Pepperoni, and Green Peppers.. This leads me to believe that not all of the pizzas baked in HRI's pizzerias have the distinct fluted rim. This does not come as a surprise. The reality is that commercial operations have quite wide variations in the pizzas they produce. In my case, the pizza had a nice crunchy rim and adjoining parts but was softer in the middle, no doubt because of a slight underbaking. I concluded that I much preferred the rim of my pizza over the hard rims of the HRI frozen pizzas that I previously baked. As for the flakiness characteristic, I can't say that I detected much in the way of flakiness in the finished crust. Again, this may be a baking issue.

Out of curiosity, after I was done making the pizza, I estimated what it cost me to make it. Some of the items I used to make the pizza had been purchased on sale but the total cost was around $4.65. That is for a 12" pizza size (11.5" after baking). I checked with an HRI menu, and the same size pizza with the same toppings pizza sold in its pizzerias would have cost $18.50, or almost four times the cost of my pizza. However, it may well be that HRI uses more toppings on its store pizzas than on its frozen pizzas. Out of necessity, we have been using the HRI frozen pizza model (based on the related Nutrition Facts), not the one used in its pizzerias, of which we know very little. But, that said, I think trying to emulate the HRI pizzeria pizzas is the better course to take.

Oven the ensuing days, as I work my way through the leftovers, I will think about what changes to try next. I may lower the hydration a bit and I might try to tame the yeast a bit more so that it can work in a one to three day cold fermentation window without overfermenting. There is no assurance that this will cure all ills. It may well turn out the the baking protocol is more important. The final point I want to leave with everyone is that the dough formulations that you and I and Bob have been testing recently can result in some very good pizzas even if they aren't exact or perfect clones of HRI's pizzas. They will also be less costly than the HRI frozen pizzas, albeit at the loss of convenience of the frozen versions.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #674 on: April 13, 2013, 12:56:38 PM »
Norma,

The results are in for my latest HRI clone dough experiment. To recapitulate, this is the dough with Gold Medal unbleached Aleppo's flour, 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (used in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil.

I used the dough yesterday after about two days of cold fermentation. At that point, based on the poppy seed spacing, the dough had expanded in volume by about 126%. That was at about the same point as it was a day before although, as I noted before, it had risen more than that at one point but fell back to its final value of 126%. At all times the dough was firm to the touch even though I could see from the bubbling at the bottom and sides of my glass storage container that there had been a lot of fermentation. Forming the dough into a skin was very easy. However, this time I did not use a rolling pin. I formed the skin entirely by hand. The fluted rim formed easily and it remained upstanding during the 15 minutes that the skin (docked) proofed on my perforated disk. To further simulate the methods used in HRI's pizzerias, I dressed and baked the pizza right after the 15-minute proof period. In other words, I did not pre-bake the crust.

I intentionally loaded up the pizza with mozzarella cheese (diced low moisture, part-skim Precious mozzarella cheese), sauce and toppings in order to see how that would affect the bake. In this case, the toppings were sausage (modified Johnsonville Hot sausage), pepperoni (14 slices, as usual), and diced green peppers. The total unbaked pizza weight was 35.63 ounces. As it turned out, that weight posed some problems baking the pizza in my home oven. I started by baking the pizza in the middle rack position of my oven at 425 degrees F. It remained there for about 12 minutes. The bottom crust achieved the desired color in some places but not as much in the middle. To get more top heat to cook and slightly brown the cheese, I moved the pizza to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute and a half. This bake protocol reminded me of how a home oven is not a conveyor oven. It may well turn out that to bake an HRI clone pizza with a lot of things on it in my home oven, it may be necessary to use a pre-bake of the crust, just as you did with your last HRI clone. But, this is how we learn.

The finished baked weight of the pizza was 33.16 ounces. That represented a loss during baking of almost 7%. Had I used a higher oven temperature and a longer bake, I am sure that the losses would have been greater.

Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out very well. However, the rim was not as distinct as your last pizza. I would say that it looked more like the crust as shown in the flicker.com website that your referenced recently at A delicious thin crust Chicago style pizza topped with sausage, Pepperoni, and Green Peppers.. This leads me to believe that not all of the pizzas baked in HRI's pizzerias have the distinct fluted rim. This does not come as a surprise. The reality is that commercial operations have quite wide variations in the pizzas they produce. In my case, the pizza had a nice crunchy rim and adjoining parts but was softer in the middle, no doubt because of a slight underbaking. I concluded that I much preferred the rim of my pizza over the hard rims of the HRI frozen pizzas that I previously baked. As for the flakiness characteristic, I can't say that I detected much in the way of flakiness in the finished crust. Again, this may be a baking issue.

Out of curiosity, after I was done making the pizza, I estimated what it cost me to make it. Some of the items I used to make the pizza had been purchased on sale but the total cost was around $4.65. That is for a 12" pizza size (11.5" after baking). I checked with an HRI menu, and the same size pizza with the same toppings pizza sold in its pizzerias would have cost $18.50, or almost four times the cost of my pizza. However, it may well be that HRI uses more toppings on its store pizzas than on its frozen pizzas. Out of necessity, we have been using the HRI frozen pizza model (based on the related Nutrition Facts), not the one used in its pizzerias, of which we know very little. But, that said, I think trying to emulate the HRI pizzeria pizzas is the better course to take.

Oven the ensuing days, as I work my way through the leftovers, I will think about what changes to try next. I may lower the hydration a bit and I might try to tame the yeast a bit more so that it can work in a one to three day cold fermentation window without overfermenting. There is no assurance that this will cure all ills. It may well turn out the the baking protocol is more important. The final point I want to leave with everyone is that the dough formulations that you and I and Bob have been testing recently can result in some very good pizzas even if they aren't exact or perfect clones of HRI's pizzas. They will also be less costly than the HRI frozen pizzas, albeit at the loss of convenience of the frozen versions.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for posting your results for your latest HRI clone experiment with your tasty results.

I wonder why the dough had risen more at one point, but fell back.  What can do that to a dough?  I was thinking about that when you posted before.  I don’t think I have ever seen that in any doughs I have made, unless the dough ball was almost unusable.  Of course by that time the dough was somewhat sticky, but since you posted that your dough formed well into a skin, that sure wouldn’t be the case.  How did you flatten your dough ball to be able to start forming the skin? 

I find it interesting that you formed the skin entirely by hand and did not pre-bake the crust.  That was a good move in the direction towards an HRI pizza.

I know a home oven is not a conveyor oven.  I wonder what would happen if I try another attempt and just bake on the stone like HRI did before they got their conveyor ovens.  I also had to really watch some of my attempts in the bake part to make sure I baked as best as my home oven could.  My home oven isn’t very accurate either in temperature, so it is hard to know what to do to get the best bake.  I also know that this is how we learn, just like you posted.

I think if your rim looked that photo you referenced it looked good.  I agree with you too, that I also preferred the rim of my pizza better than any of the HRI frozen pizzas I tried so far.

The price of your HRI clone pizza sure was a lot cheaper than purchasing a real HRI pizza. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #675 on: April 14, 2013, 08:16:18 AM »
I wonder why the dough had risen more at one point, but fell back.  What can do that to a dough?  I was thinking about that when you posted before.  I don’t think I have ever seen that in any doughs I have made, unless the dough ball was almost unusable.  Of course by that time the dough was somewhat sticky, but since you posted that your dough formed well into a skin, that sure wouldn’t be the case.  How did you flatten your dough ball to be able to start forming the skin?

Norma,

That's a good question. It may take more experiments to answer that question but thus far my experience has been that the dough will expand but it doesn't go wild, and it will remain firm to the touch for a couple of days. Even when the dough recedes, as evidenced by the spacing of the poppy seeds narrowing rather than widening, the narrowing is slight and almost not noticeable. For example, the spacing might go from 1 5/16" to 1 3/16". A lot also depends on the temperature of the dough during fermentation. The best time to make the dough would be in the evening since the dough will remain unperturbed during the evening hours. That is why many pizza operators make their dough at night when there are no workers around going in and out of their coolers. I also learned from a prior Papa John's clone experiment how a cold fermentation environment can almost stop the yeast dead in its tracks. See, for example, Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308. In that case, I used only a small amount of ADY (0.30%) but it was in dry form. Had I used more yeast I am certain that there would have been more fermentation but the coldness of the refrigerator would have mitigated some of the rise.

On the matter of forming the skin by hand, I simple dipped the dough ball in flour to coat it, flattened it with the palm of my hand, and then pressed the flattened dough ball with my fingers starting at the center and working outwardly. That made it easier than using a rolling pin to get an almost perfectly round skin of about 12". The dough is very malleable and pretty much responds to what you want it to do.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #676 on: April 14, 2013, 10:13:57 AM »
Norma,

That's a good question. It may take more experiments to answer that question but thus far my experience has been that the dough will expand but it doesn't go wild, and it will remain firm to the touch for a couple of days. Even when the dough recedes, as evidenced by the spacing of the poppy seeds narrowing rather than widening, the narrowing is slight and almost not noticeable. For example, the spacing might go from 1 5/16" to 1 3/16". A lot also depends on the temperature of the dough during fermentation. The best time to make the dough would be in the evening since the dough will remain unperturbed during the evening hours. That is why many pizza operators make their dough at night when there are no workers around going in and out of their coolers. I also learned from a prior Papa John's clone experiment how a cold fermentation environment can almost stop the yeast dead in its tracks. See, for example, Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308. In that case, I used only a small amount of ADY (0.30%) but it was in dry form. Had I used more yeast I am certain that there would have been more fermentation but the coldness of the refrigerator would have mitigated some of the rise.

On the matter of forming the skin by hand, I simple dipped the dough ball in flour to coat it, flattened it with the palm of my hand, and then pressed the flattened dough ball with my fingers starting at the center and working outwardly. That made it easier than using a rolling pin to get an almost perfectly round skin of about 12". The dough is very malleable and pretty much responds to what you want it to do.

Peter


Peter,

Thank you for explaining more why your dough receded and the little amount that it did recede.  I can understand why the best time to make the dough would be in the evening since the dough then remains undisturbed until the next day.  Thanks also for the link to where you almost stopped the yeast in its tracks.  That was an interesting read that I don’t recall reading before.  I think anyone that wants to try a HRI clone dough will learn some interesting things about how a high oil dough with high amounts of ADY or IDY added later behaves. 

I know I have some problems in getting a perfectly round skin when using a rolling pin.  I might try your method the next time.  Thanks for explaining what you did.

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #677 on: April 14, 2013, 02:18:09 PM »
Peter,
I'll be starting another try at a HRI pie tomorrow evening for a two day stint in the 'fridge. I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on the subject. I'm willing to experiment with hydration and/or yeast. I have both IDY and ADY. I'm out of sausage so unless I get some soon, it'll be a pepperoni pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #678 on: April 15, 2013, 09:33:47 AM »
Jay,

I think I would go with 50% hydration, 2.1% dry ADY (that is, no prehydration), 2% salt and 19% corn oil. That is the formulation that I planned to try next. I would look for a two-day cold fermentation. I would prepare the skin in the manner that I previously suggested to Norma, and that she used for her last HRI clone. That is, I would prepare the skin on a floured wooden peel (using a rolling pin or by hand); after forming the skin to 12", dock it while still on the peel; load the docked skin onto the carrier (either a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan); form the fluted rim (the final diameter of the fluted skin should be about 11 1/2"); and proof the skin for about 15 minutes at room temperature. If needed or desired, you can reform the fluted rim after the proof period if it droops and leans one way or the other. I am hoping that the reduced hydration and the use of less ADY, along with the two-day cold fermentation, translates into a sturdy skin with an upstanding fluted rim and without dimples.

If you plan to go light on the cheese and toppings, you might dress the pizza in the usual manner and bake it at about 425-450 degrees F until the crust at the rim and bottom is of the desired degree of browning. If you plan to use a lot of cheese and toppings, you might get better results pre-baking the skin until it turns a very light brown color (basically a hint of gold), and then dress and finish the bake. Ovens vary so you may have to decide which oven rack position to use and how long to bake the pizza. In my oven, and especially if I use a lot of cheese and toppings, I find it necessary to move the pizza to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat to melt and slightly brown the cheese.

If you need any help on the amounts of cheese, sauce and toppings to use for the pizza you would like to make, I think I can give you those numbers.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #679 on: April 15, 2013, 02:48:24 PM »
I swear this thread is becoming the main event around here.  Sure wish Peter and Norma could try a frozen pizza from Giordanos and put the same effort into duplicating that masterpiece.
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