Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 85198 times)

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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #220 on: March 05, 2013, 10:21:33 AM »
I did try Loo's formulation afew times in 2011 (I posted some results on page 9 of this thread), but I couldn't compare it to the real thing as I've never had HRI before, and the frozen ones weren't available in Canada.  I just realized I can buy them here in Arizona though, so I will be off to buy a couple tonight!  I'm really looking forward to it.  I didn't realize that they par cooked the whole pizza... That's what the mom n' pops did back home in minneapolis!


Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #221 on: March 05, 2013, 11:21:32 AM »
If you hadn't been so vocal and outspoken on this subject, I perhaps wouldn't have decided to take it up again. However, I think I know more about what I am doing now as compared with what I knew and did when loo (loowaters) started the original HRI thread.

Thanks for the feedback, Peter, and your hard work on this.

I have to say, among the many forums I've frequented over the years, this one is the most collegial and supportive of them all.  The downside of that is a hesitation to (constructively) criticize recipes, especially when they come from a longtime, beloved member (e.g., in this case, Loo).  We are, after all, talking about the recipe and not about the person, but you still wanna "play nice."  So if I have been too strident, Loo or anyone else, I apologize for coming off that way.

So I guess the questions remain, as you pointed out, Peter--how do we achieve these texture and taste benchmarks in a home environment?  As a side note, it's interesting that the chains are the hardest to nail down (e.g., besides HRI, Aurelio's has not been cloned properly yet, and Giordano's and Malnati's took herculean efforts and many trials from many people, etc.).  But I guess that isn't all that surprising.  Chains do things on a scale that we don't or can't, necessarily, in the home environment, whereas the mom-n-pops shops are more like an outgrowth of the home environment to begin with.

Cheers,
Garvey

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #222 on: March 05, 2013, 12:48:03 PM »
Garvey,
To be honest, it has been a long time since I've made one of these and I don't remember what changes I made. I do remember though that I was able to come very close.

You've sparked my curiosity now and believe I will revisit the HRI clone sometime during the next few days. Will post up results.

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #223 on: March 05, 2013, 12:56:32 PM »
Garvey,

You can get a pretty good idea as to how HRI makes its frozen pizzas from the article that I previously referenced at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. In that article, it says that the oil is added to the flour, and then the yeast and salt. The article is silent as to when the water is added. However, Tom Lehmann, who once did some consulting work for HRI for its frozen pizza operation (I remember seeing his name in one of the early articles on HRI's frozen pizza operation), says that the conventional method is to add the oil right after the water has been added to the mixer bowl so that you don't end up with clumps of oiled flour. It sounds like high-speed mixers are used to make the HRI kind of dough so in a home setting it might make sense to use a food processor or maybe a stand mixer with the whisk attachment used intially to blend the oil and flour together more uniformly.

The duration of fermentation of the dough can also affect the texture of the finished crust. I have read that HRI has used 12-18 hours of cold fermentation (see the article at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395) and up to 2 to 3 days (see the YouTube video at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>
). Getting a good rise in the dough isn't as important as with other doughs since the HRI dough balls are formed into skins using hot presses that impart tremendous force on the dough balls and skins that forces out a lot of the gases while partially heating the skin. Also, the large amount of oil in the dough, even with a lot of yeast, will keep the dough from going wild and rising excessively during the period of cold fermentation. In a home setting, it should be OK to use a rolling pin to form the skins, although it should also be possible to form the skins by hand.

The other thing that is important is to get a rim that is upstanding. To a degree, that is a function of the combination of the amounts of oil and water in the dough. They have to be just right to permit the rim to stand upright for pretty much the full time--during forming, dressing and baking. A good view of such a rim can be seen in Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. That photo is for a store-made HRI pizza, using a perforated dark anodized disk, which is something that is also a good option for a home oven. You won't get a rim like shown in Reply 195 in a frozen HRI pizza. The rim of a frozen HRI pizza will be rounded, and made without human intervention. Once a proper upstanding rim is made, there is a better likelihood that the texture of the finished crust will be what you want in an HRI type of crust. If HRI's Nutrition Facts are correct, I think there is less oil that what the members have been using in this thread, so that can make it a bit easier to form a rim that properly stands upright. Getting the hydration right is a challenge because there is water loss during baking, and it is very difficult to apportion the total loss among the dough, the sauce and the cheese (and sausage, if used, and pepperoni to a much smaller degree if it is used).

I will be interested in getting any feedback from CDNpielover should he decide to try out some of the HRI frozen pizzas. One of the things he is likely to note is that the 12" frozen HRI pizzas are closer to 11 1/2" than 12". I also believe that the HRI frozen cheese pizzas and the pepperoni cheeses have the same amount of cheese but that the frozen HRI sausage pizza has less cheese than the other pizzas because the weight of the sausage is considerably more than the weight of pepperoni slices. So, to offset the added weight of the sausage, I believe they cut back on the amount of cheese for the sausage pizza. It is also possible that the weights of the HRI frozen pizzas are more than the boxes indicate. It is common practice in the frozen pizza business to make the frozen pizzas weigh more than stated on the packaging materials. The last thing they want is to have consumers protesting that they got pizzas that weighed less than was stated.

I can understand that people would like to be able to make a credible HRI clone at home. As one can see in a typical HRI menu, http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_lowres.pdf, a 12" cheese pizza costs $14.80, and goes to $16.50 if a topping, like pepperoni or sausage, for example, is added. I don't know if a store-bought HRI pizza weighs more that one of their frozen counterparts, but I estimated that the costs (at my level) for a basic HRI clone cheese pizza is around $4. HRI uses a "natural" pepperoni that will be hard to find at retail so finding such a pepperoni is likely to increase the at-home cost of an HRI clone pepperoni pizza.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #224 on: March 05, 2013, 12:58:38 PM »
To be honest, it has been a long time since I've made one of these and I don't remember what changes I made. I do remember though that I was able to come very close.

You've sparked my curiosity now and believe I will revisit the HRI clone sometime during the next few days. Will post up results.

Bob,

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in the weights of dough, sauce, cheese and any toppings that you end up using.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #225 on: March 05, 2013, 01:03:39 PM »
Bob,

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in the weights of dough, sauce, cheese and any toppings that you end up using.

Peter
Yes, of course..will make sure to take those measurements for you.
Bob
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #226 on: March 05, 2013, 01:06:55 PM »
I will be interested in getting any feedback from CDNpielover should he decide to try out some of the HRI frozen pizzas. One of the things he is likely to note is that the 12" frozen HRI pizzas are closer to 11 1/2" than 12". I also believe that the HRI frozen cheese pizzas and the pepperoni cheeses have the same amount of cheese but that the frozen HRI sausage pizza has less cheese than the other pizzas because the weight of the sausage is considerably more than the weight of pepperoni slices. So, to offset the added weight of the sausage, I believe they cut back on the amount of cheese for the sausage pizza. It is also possible that the weights of the HRI frozen pizzas are more than the boxes indicate. It is common practice in the frozen pizza business to make the frozen pizzas weigh more than stated on the packaging materials. The last thing they want is to have consumers protesting that they got pizzas that weighed less than was stated.

I don't know if a store-bought HRI pizza weighs more that one of their frozen counterparts, but I estimated that the costs (at my level) for a basic HRI clone cheese pizza is around $4. HRI uses a "natural" pepperoni that will be hard to find at retail so finding such a pepperoni is likely to increase the at-home cost of an HRI clone pepperoni pizza.

Peter,

I will definitely report back my thoughts on the frozen HRI.  I'm not sure what types my local Albertson's carries, but I will get a plain cheese if they have it.  I can measure the diameter... would the mass be useful, considering it has been parcooked (with some water loss)?  I do have access to good balances at work, and I wouldn't mind sacrificing a pizza to get some useful numbers.  Would it help if I thawed and dissected the pizza to estimate dough and cheese weights (I can try and wipe off the sauce).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #227 on: March 05, 2013, 02:00:16 PM »
Peter,

I will definitely report back my thoughts on the frozen HRI.  I'm not sure what types my local Albertson's carries, but I will get a plain cheese if they have it.  I can measure the diameter... would the mass be useful, considering it has been parcooked (with some water loss)?  I do have access to good balances at work, and I wouldn't mind sacrificing a pizza to get some useful numbers.  Would it help if I thawed and dissected the pizza to estimate dough and cheese weights (I can try and wipe off the sauce).
CDNpielover,

Yes, it would help if you are able to dismember the pizza into its component parts and note the weights of those parts. Having done this with a frozen HRI sausage pizza recently, I can tell you that you wont have to sacrifice your pizza to the gods.

What I did was to let the frozen sausage pizza sit at room temperature so that it could defrost. I found that it was best not to let the pizza defrost too much so that the sauce would stick to the cheese. I started by carefully removing the pieces of sausage off of the pizza, being careful as not to also remove part of the sauce underlying the sausage pieces. Then I gradually "peeled" sections of the cheese from the pizza, starting from the outer edges and proceeding to the center of the pizza, where the pizza was defrosting more slowly. I was careful as not to remove too much of the sauce along with the cheese, although I found that a very small, inconsequential amount of the sauce would stick to the cheese and was too little to worry about. HRI uses a coarsely diced mozzarella cheese, with dice of varying shapes and sizes, but basically rectangular shaped. I used the tip of a sharp knife to lift off every dice of cheese that I could. When the sausage pieces and the cheese were removed from the pizza, I then carefully scraped the sauce into a pile. I was careful as not to also scrape part of the crust along with the sauce. As a final step, I used a pastry brush to clean the top of the crust as best I could. Then I weighed each of the component parts.

Once I was out of surgery and removed my surgical gown and mask and set my scalpel aside, I reassembled the pizza and baked it. I spread the sauce over the crust, added the pieces of cheese so as to cover the entire pizza as uniformly as possible and then distributed the sausage pizzas over the pizza, pressing the sausage pieces into the cheese in the same manner as they were originally implanted (but more uniformly across the pizza rather than random). I then baked the reassembled pizza. It was none the worse for wear. It came out fine. I did weigh the reassembled pizza so that I could compare that weight against the weight of the final baked pizza. I used a perforated dark anodized disk as the carrier for the pizza, and baked the pizza on the middle oven rack position at about 475 degrees F. I may have baked the pizza a bit too long, so you may want to bake your pizza only until the crust, both at the rim and on the bottom, are only lightly browned.

I think you will be somewhat surprised with what you find, perhaps even more so with a cheese pizza.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 02:18:40 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #228 on: March 05, 2013, 02:14:04 PM »
CDNpielover,
Now this is just my opinion but if you can also get a HRI cheese and sausage pizza you should definitely try the taste of one. They use a sausage that is very unusual and quite distinct from traditional raw Chicago fennel type sausage. To me, their sausage is a major contributor to experiencing a genuine Home Run Inn pizza...just a thought. Oh, and around here they sell mini(6in. maybe?) frozen pies in several different topping selections.

Bob
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #229 on: March 05, 2013, 09:03:48 PM »
I just grabbed an uncured pepperoni frozen HRI pizza.  They carry cheese, pepperoni, and meat lovers (no sausage, which is unfortunate as I was planning to try that too).  I ended up getting a pepperoni, as it seemed like it wouldn't be too difficult to peel off the meat from the cheese.

Pete, since you have already weighed the components of a frozen HRI, would my numbers even be useful?  I don't mind doing it if they will be of some use, but I don't want to do it just as an exercise because I'll likely have to sacrifice a pizza to get the numbers (either by having to break it up to mass it on my small "drug dealer" scale, or by having to do it at work after which is more inconvenient and after which i'll probably just throw it away).  I can definitely get some masses, but I only want to do that if they are needed for something.

Thanks!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #230 on: March 05, 2013, 09:19:33 PM »
CDNpielover,

The benefit of having a second set of data would be to confirm my numbers. However, since I have one more sausage puzza left, I can use that pizza to conduct further measurements.

Thanks anyway.

Peter

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #231 on: March 05, 2013, 09:25:22 PM »
Peter, you mentioned that they may put less cheese on a sausage than a pepperoni or cheese.  would it be useful to have weights from a pepperoni to check this hypothesis?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #232 on: March 05, 2013, 09:43:47 PM »
Peter, you mentioned that they may put less cheese on a sausage than a pepperoni or cheese.  would it be useful to have weights from a pepperoni to check this hypothesis?
CDNpielover,

I ran a similar experiment dissecting an HRI pepperoni pizza and it clearly had more cheese on it than the HRI sausage pizza. That prompted me to study the Nutrition Facts more carefully to see if they confirmed what I found from my tests. However, since I don't know the composition of the HRI sausage, I couldn't be completely sure of my analysis.

Peter

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #233 on: March 06, 2013, 12:20:05 AM »
I may be off, but this recipe always hits an HRI taste for me! I am excited about trying another recipe though!   it will be good to compare.   I only ate at HRI a few times most of my experience has been with frozen 6inch ones that I used ro microwave! as a teen, and I still loved them! 

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #234 on: March 06, 2013, 12:22:48 AM »
maybe its the gumlayer I get with this recipe...hmmmmm.

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #235 on: March 06, 2013, 12:22:52 AM »
I may be off, but this recipe always hits an HRI taste for me! I am excited about trying another recipe though!   it will be good to compare.   I only ate at HRI a few times most of my experience has been with frozen 6inch ones that I used ro microwave! as a teen, and I still loved them! 
Right on Mr. Mo!  8)
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #236 on: March 06, 2013, 12:24:47 AM »
maybe its the gumlayer I get with this recipe...hmmmmm.
Believe me....I've seen even on 31st. Street.... :o
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Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #237 on: March 06, 2013, 12:31:54 AM »
ya know what I mean? the sauce and the crust make a good gooey gum layer but it doesn't soak all the way through.   theres still a crunch. that density is what I remember.  I need to get back to Chicago and do the real deal! real soon! man I am now hungry!

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #238 on: March 06, 2013, 12:36:17 AM »
Yeah...it's dense alright... ;)    :-D
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #239 on: March 07, 2013, 02:26:07 PM »
Bob,

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in the weights of dough, sauce, cheese and any toppings that you end up using.

Peter
I made a "fast" one last night and believe the flavor really suffered because of this. Start to finish was only about 4 hrs.The texture was right there though and I was pleased to see the dough almost double after only aprox. 1 1/2 hrs. No gum layer what so ever, good dense biscuity tender crunch(if you will)..just really lacking in flavor. But I've got some plans for that.  ;)

Here is Loos "emergency" formula          And here is what I did
100% AP Flour                                   100% AP Flour
42 Water                                           45 Water
24 Corn Oil                                         24 Corn Oil
1.75 ADY                                           2 IDY
1.75 Salt                                           .50 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111                        TF .130  

10.21 oz. dough into a 10in. cutter pan. Baked @450 aprox. 18 min.

Here are the ingredient amounts that seemed to work out well and I will probably stay with...

10in. pan
Dough  10oz.
Sauce  5oz.
Cheese 7oz.
Sausage 4oz.

Next one is going to ferment some so I'll be back in a day or so....I'll post pics of that. This one looked a bit strange from a mozz, asiago, and too much Scarmorza blend I did.

Any comments,questions, suggestions....I'm all ears.
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