Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 109913 times)

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Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #525 on: March 22, 2013, 09:21:58 PM »
Terry,

I donít want to get this thread too far off topic, but I did try a waffle iron to bake a pizza.   :-D http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11568.0.html

That pizza is one reason I don't think your idea is too crazy.

Norma

wow!! you are good!!!  not too far off topic at all!  this could be something!  great work Norma!!  man you are creative and an excellent pizza maker!!! thank you!!!
"My Doctor says I swallow a lot of aggression.  Along with a lot of pizzas!!"


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #526 on: March 22, 2013, 09:23:41 PM »
hee!!  i dont want you to ruin your dough!!!  i need to seek out peter's posts of the temps of those presses and the times!  i do have a cast iron pan!!!! what fun!!  Norma, read the review of your new york pizza here!  saw those pics!  man you are so adept at so many different pizzas your new york looked awesome!!!!!  the reviewer also thought so!  way to go!!!!
I believe it is 800 + degrees Terry...also, it is a "press", probably some hydraulic 10 ton contraption that has timed sequence too just to make it harder for us!  :-D

But I sure like the way you are thinking about this dude...very impressive to say the least!  :chef:
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:25:36 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #527 on: March 22, 2013, 09:24:13 PM »
wow!! you are good!!!  not too far off topic at all!  this could be something!  great work Norma!!  man you are creative and an excellent pizza maker!!! thank you!!!

Terry,

I am not really that good, but just like to experiment to see what happens.  I have been known for trying crazy stuff.

Wait and see what Peter has to say.

Norma
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Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #528 on: March 22, 2013, 09:34:31 PM »
I believe it is 800 + degrees Terry...also, it is a "press", probably some hydraulic 10 ton contraption that has timed sequence too just to make it harder for us!  :-D

But I sure like the way you are thinking about this dude...very impressive to say the least!  :chef:
oh my word!! that is high!!!  only way i could do it would be to put the pans in my wfo for a couple hours, and then i would need to work out 3 times a day with free weights for about 3 years and then try and not succeed!  however i wonder if we can get a proof of concept with a lower temp....slower compression.....400 twice as long on the compression....wow!  i need to remember though its just proof of concept we need only a small piece of dough and a couple layers to show up!!
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #529 on: March 22, 2013, 10:54:43 PM »
What about using two cutter pans (that nest)? 

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #530 on: March 22, 2013, 11:08:12 PM »
heck yeah!!  will they hold heat long enough?  ok, again i must think! proof of concept..we just need to see layers! doesnt need to be perfect.  ok i  heat the pans! put the skin between! run it out to the driveway and run over it with the car!!  ok ok! im gettin carried away with the compression! but still heat em put the skin (or i guess dough ball) in between then sit on it stand on it! do whatever you can for great compression!  hell!   thats a good idea Garvey!  i like it!  makes a nice rimn too!! Nice!!
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #531 on: March 22, 2013, 11:14:28 PM »
heck yeah!!  will they hold heat long enough?  ok, again i must think! proof of concept..we just need to see layers! doesnt need to be perfect.  ok i  heat the pans! put the skin between! run it out to the driveway and run over it with the car!!  ok ok! im gettin carried away with the compression! but still heat em put the skin (or i guess dough ball) in between then sit on it stand on it! do whatever you can for great compression!  hell!   thats a good idea Garvey!  i like it!  makes a nice rimn too!! Nice!!
Ok that's it Terry...I'm sorry but I feel it my duty to ask you, check that...plead with you to step back away from this idea before you end up hurting yourself...or, even worse, your poor car man!  :o

Pizza Pal,
Bob
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Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #532 on: March 22, 2013, 11:19:23 PM »
alright!!  but when i  back get back to work on monday im gonna use the patent database and do some patent searches!!!!  right on Bob!!
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #533 on: March 22, 2013, 11:34:55 PM »
alright!!  but when i  back get back to work on monday im gonna use the patent database and do some patent searches!!!!  right on Bob!!
Ok buddy....that sounds harmless enough I guess. I do admire your tenacity Terry.  :-\

Bob   ;D
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #534 on: March 22, 2013, 11:47:15 PM »
I could see this being messy.  What if you had three cutter pans: cold press the dough with your fingers into the "middle" pan, making sure to get some kind of rim going, and then nest that pan between two blazing hot pans.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #535 on: March 22, 2013, 11:58:01 PM »
I could see this being messy.  What if you had three cutter pans: cold press the dough with your fingers into the "middle" pan, making sure to get some kind of rim going, and then nest that pan between two blazing hot pans.
And clamp it all together with 3 pairs of vise grips maybe.... ???
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Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #536 on: March 23, 2013, 12:13:28 AM »
NICE!!
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #537 on: March 23, 2013, 12:45:20 AM »
If the dough is already rolled out/pressed out to size, I don't think you need much extra pressure at all except enough to ensure the transfer the heat from the other pans.  I.e., the heavy pressing is for a cold dough ball.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #538 on: March 23, 2013, 08:00:37 AM »
I think it would be instructive if we all went back and reread the pertinent parts of the three articles referenced below, and also reviewed the YouTube video as also presented below:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080121222757/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200705/article.php?story=lehmann

http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml

http://web.archive.org/web/20090607015955/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200805/topform.php (Note: See edit on next post)


I believe that the above articles and video make it clear that a primary purpose of a dough press is to increase the production rate of skins, just as the sheeters that HRI used in the 1940s made it easier and faster to form the skins than doing it by hand. According to HRI, when it went to dough presses, in 1990, it tripled its throughput. Of course, with a hot dough press, you get some additional things beyond just forming the skins, like highly compressing the skins and getting application of heat. However, as the Colombo article referenced above mentions, the skins are not cooked or baked. The hot press raises the gluten gel to the surface and, as Tom Lehmann frequently says, an "exoskeleton" is formed that creates a top surface that is semi-fixed and holds the steam center as the crust bakes. At the option of the user, the skins can be proofed if desired, as is done in HRI's pizzerias (for about 15-20 minutes), or dressed and baked (or par-baked in HRI's case) right after coming out of the hot press, as is done at HRI's frozen pizza plants.

In HRI's case, I believe that the dough formulation and related dough making and baking methods may be more critical to the success of the HRI pizzas than the hot dough press, or otherwise every skin produced by a hot press would yield a crust that is flaky, which we know not to be true. So, my focus would be to first get the dough formulation, and also the form, fit and function, correct before thinking about home solutions to the hot dough press. If it later turns out that the dough press is the reason for the flakiness, then members can resort to whatever solutions they can devise in a home setting.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 10:12:44 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #539 on: March 23, 2013, 10:20:51 AM »
For some reason, the link to the Sarah Colombo article that I referenced in the last post does not always work. I tried to insert the link into my post as suggested by Steve (I tried a couple of ways), and had success doing so, but later it did not open up to the correct article. So I believe that the problem is at the Wayback Machine rather than on the forum. Consequently, I have decided to excerpt the part of the article that relates to dough presses. Here it is:

Hot presses work by using a manual or motor-operated heated platen to press a dough ball into a die cavity. They can create different shapes, including traditional round and rectangle crusts. Hot presses are ideal for forming oven-rising pizzas with a raised edge. Some of these presses even offer optional mold inserts that recreate the shape of hand-formed pizzas. Hot presses also have thickness adjustments so you can predetermine the exact diameter of the skin. Dan Rio, president of Dough XPress, a division of Hix Corporation in Pittsburg, Kansas, says that makes hot presses ideal for pizzerias that use conveyor ovens. "With a certain thickness setting, a 16-ounce dough ball will come out to be 14" every time," he says.

Hot presses usually require the aid of relaxing ingredients, such as oil, to help the dough stretch and to reduce shrinkage while it bakes. And because the heated platen activates the dough yeast to some degree, the dough needs to be baked immediately after it's pressed. However, most manufacturers agree that this heat exposure doesn't critically affect the structure of the dough. "People are under the assumption that the heated platen cooks the dough, but it doesn't," explains Dale LaRose, sales manager of Cuppone America, a division of Global Industries in Manteca, California. "When you press dough, it brings the gluten gel to the surface, seals that formed pizza base, and holds the steam center inside when it bakes." Like sheeters, hot presses come in different sizes to accommodate various production levels at pizzerias. Although most presses can't accommodate the volume typically produced by sheeters, they're generally less labor-intensive to operate. "There is very little employee training involved with a press, because all they need to know how to do is press a button," says Larry Serafin, marketing manager for the Dolton, Illinois-based AM Manufacturing Company.

Cold presses, which are popular in high-production markets, perform a similar function to hot presses, except they don't rely on heat activation. Instead, they form using a high water-absorption process and dough set to a high temperature (generally around 100įF). Cold presses require that the dough is very soft to form, which can make it difficult to create a welldefined, raised-edge crust. However, they also afford a unique opportunity by allowing you to finish forming the dough by hand. Like hot presses, cold presses rely on oil or similar activating ingredients. Cold presses are also ideal for making focaccia bread, and can produce unique, fried-bottom crust pizzas.


Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #540 on: March 23, 2013, 07:41:26 PM »
This was my next attempt at an HRI pizza tonight.  I used the skin that I had fermented for two days.  It kind of surprised me that the skin didnít rise much at all in the two days it was in the refrigerator.  I weighed the skin before I place it on the wooden peel and it weighed 14.7 ounces.  I had thought it weighed 15 oz. before I placed it in the fridge.

I had a loading error, I guess because I didnít flour my wooden peel enough.  I only dusted my wooden peel lightly with flour.  A little of the cheese and one pepperoni slice fell off when I went to slide the pizza off of the wooden peel.  I did retrieve the pepperoni slice with my tongs from the bottom of my oven and put it back onto the pizza.  Where the cheese melted it left a mess on my pizza stone. 

The pizza was baked at 490 degrees for about 14 minutes.  I did have to turn the hot pizza stone while it was in the oven to get the struck cheese unstuck before I could rotate the pizza.  I thought there might be more layers when the bubbles began to appear at the beginning of the bake.  The pizza weighed 725 grams after the bake.  I used 10 oz. of the Foremost Farms LMPS, 4.5 ounces of Full Red, and 14 slices of Ciao pepperoni.  The pepperoni weighed 1.2 oz.  I also sprinkled a little oregano on the pizza before the bake. 

I thought the HRI attempt was very tasty and it did have good bottom crust browning and also some rim crust browning.  I thought the rim crust had a little bit of chew and also was crunchy, but the crunchiness was very easy to bite.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #541 on: March 23, 2013, 07:44:50 PM »
Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #542 on: March 23, 2013, 07:47:55 PM »
Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #543 on: March 24, 2013, 09:48:44 AM »
Norma,

You previously indicated that you were using 17% corn oil and that you had reduced the amount of yeast. Can you tell us how much yeast you used and also the hydration value? Since I have been estimating that HRI is using more than 2% dry yeast for the dough for its frozen pizzas, based on analysis of the Nutrition Facts for its basic pizzas, like their cheese and pepperoni pizzas, I wondered how the dough would hold up in the refrigerator at the high yeast levels. I suspect that the skin that you made, even when folded in quarters, had a profile and shape that allowed it to cool down faster than if it had been in the shape of a rounded ball. I now tend to think that you could use the higher quantity of yeast and not have the folded skin change volume in any material way while in the refrigerator. Out of curiosity, did you weigh the skin after it had been formed to see if it was 15 ounces? I know from experience that that is something that can be hard to achieve when, at the same time, you are trying to get a uniformly round skin of the desired diameter.

By and large, I think your weights of the dough ball, cheese, sauce and pepperoni were in line for an HRI clone, even with the slightly underweight dough skin, but from the before and after weights you gave for your pizza, it looks like the weight loss of the pizza as a result of baking was around 16%. That is considerably higher than I saw with the defrosted HRI frozen pizzas I tested, but it might well be that the weight losses are higher when using a freshly made pizza and baking directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. Also, you may have loss some weight during the loading mishap.

I scoured your post looking for the word "flaky" or "flakiness" but did not find either word. Since that has been the subject of much discussion, can we conclude that the crust did not have a flaky character?

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #544 on: March 24, 2013, 10:05:07 AM »
Norma,

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:

http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg


Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #545 on: March 24, 2013, 10:56:48 AM »
Norma,

You previously indicated that you were using 17% corn oil and that you had reduced the amount of yeast. Can you tell us how much yeast you used and also the hydration value? Since I have been estimating that HRI is using more than 2% dry yeast for the dough for its frozen pizzas, based on analysis of the Nutrition Facts for its basic pizzas, like their cheese and pepperoni pizzas, I wondered how the dough would hold up in the refrigerator at the high yeast levels. I suspect that the skin that you made, even when folded in quarters, had a profile and shape that allowed it to cool down faster than if it had been in the shape of a rounded ball. I now tend to think that you could use the higher quantity of yeast and not have the folded skin change volume in any material way while in the refrigerator. Out of curiosity, did you weigh the skin after it had been formed to see if it was 15 ounces? I know from experience that that is something that can be hard to achieve when, at the same time, you are trying to get a uniformly round skin of the desired diameter.

By and large, I think your weights of the dough ball, cheese, sauce and pepperoni were in line for an HRI clone, even with the slightly underweight dough skin, but from the before and after weights you gave for your pizza, it looks like the weight loss of the pizza as a result of baking was around 16%. That is considerably higher than I saw with the defrosted HRI frozen pizzas I tested, but it might well be that the weight losses are higher when using a freshly made pizza and baking directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. Also, you may have loss some weight during the loading mishap.

I scoured your post looking for the word "flaky" or "flakiness" but did not find either word. Since that has been the subject of much discussion, can we conclude that the crust did not have a flaky character?

Peter

Peter,

This is the print out from the expanded dough calculation tool of the formulation I used.  If you recall I did use part of that dough so my great-granddaughter would have some dough to roll.

I think the skin held up good using a IDY amount of 2.0% for a two day cold ferment.  I guess it might be all the corn oil in the dough that keeps it from fermenting more, but really donít know.  I did weigh the dough after I took off what was leftover for my great-granddaugther and that weighed 15 oz., but no I didnít weigh the skin after it was rolled.   

Since you did the calculation I think 16% bake loss weight was a lot too.  I donít know either how a fresh pizza baked on the stone relates to bake loss weights in an HRI clone attempt.  When I rolled out the skin it felt like a normal dough ball and I think I could have stretched it like a normal dough ball into a skin, but since I didnít do that I donít know if that would have been possible.  I know there would be some more bake weight losses from the cheese landing on the stone in the back area of my stone.

The crust did have a flaky character in the rim and bottom crust and I thought that tasted very good.  I tasted two slices after the pizza was cold and the flakiness was still there in the bottom crust and rim.  I am sure not an expert on what a real HRI pizza is like in the flaky crust though, because I never had a real HRI pizza.  I can say though that the pizza made yesterday was more flaky in the crust and rim than the one HRI frozen pizza I baked.  What has me puzzled is the layer thing in the bottom crust.  I sure donít know what bake temperature HRI used years ago, but maybe if I would have used a higher bake temperature, maybe there could have been some layers.

These are also the two pictures of when I ate the slices cold. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #546 on: March 24, 2013, 11:04:08 AM »
Norma,

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:  :-D

http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg


Peter

Peter,

Lol, yep I agree that guy sure would be able to do a good job of imparting a great deal of pressure per square inch on my dough skins.

This is what I wished I would have kept though.  That heated dough press in the background at my pizza stand.   ;D

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #547 on: March 24, 2013, 12:45:40 PM »
I think the skin held up good using a IDY amount of 2.0% for a two day cold ferment.  I guess it might be all the corn oil in the dough that keeps it from fermenting more, but really donít know.  I did weigh the dough after I took off what was leftover for my great-granddaugther and that weighed 15 oz., but no I didnít weigh the skin after it was rolled.   
Norma,

You indicated 2% IDY in the above quoted material but the formulation that you posted from the expanded dough calculating tool shows 1.75%. Also, I note that you dropped the hydration quite a bit. That perhaps slowed the fermentation down also, much as happens with cracker style doughs with low hydration values. I also think that the high oil quantity slowed down the fermentation process, and most likely that would also happen with higher hydration values. The dough should also be firmer to the touch than a dough with much less oil (and even with a higher hydration than you used).

Your dough preparations and management aside, it is quite possible that your most recent dough formulation falls outside the ambit of the HRI dough formulation if the HRI Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas is a good measure of their formulation. It is hard to say for sure since, as previously noted, I believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts, and the suspect item is involved in some of the calculations required by the FDA.

Peter

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #548 on: March 24, 2013, 01:28:24 PM »
Norma,

You indicated 2% IDY in the above quoted material but the formulation that you posted from the expanded dough calculating tool shows 1.75%. Also, I note that you dropped the hydration quite a bit. That perhaps slowed the fermentation down also, much as happens with cracker style doughs with low hydration values. I also think that the high oil quantity slowed down the fermentation process, and most likely that would also happen with higher hydration values. The dough should also be firmer to the touch than a dough with much less oil (and even with a higher hydration than you used).

Your dough preparations and management aside, it is quite possible that your most recent dough formulation falls outside the ambit of the HRI dough formulation if the HRI Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas is a good measure of their formulation. It is hard to say for sure since, as previously noted, I believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts, and the suspect item is involved in some of the calculations required by the FDA.

Peter

Peter,

It was my mistake that I quoted 2% IDY, until I looked at the picture I took of the dough formulation I used.  I did drop the hydration quite a bit.  Thanks for telling me the hydration perhaps slowed the fermentation some too. 

I also thought my most recent dough formulation falls outside the limits of an HRI dough formulation, but since I donít understand the HRI Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas I didnĎt know what to try next.  I hope you eventually find out what the error is in the HRI Nutrition Facts. 

Norma
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #549 on: March 24, 2013, 03:21:57 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:

http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg


Peter

why didn't I think of that!!  thanks for all the info on the dough press and hri info Peter! always appreciated!

norma your latest attempt does indeed again look delicious!  i cant help but go back to that little crust you tested a few days ago, that did seem to have layers!  what was it about that test???  thanks for all that you do!!
"My Doctor says I swallow a lot of aggression.  Along with a lot of pizzas!!"


 

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