Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 89213 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #580 on: April 02, 2013, 03:13:28 PM »
Jay,

Since HRI has stated in the past that their dough was cold fermented for 12-24 hours and then that was changed to 2-3 days, I wondered whether the long fermentation times, and especially at high yeast levels, would cause the dough to ferment to the point where the dough was soft and the fluted edges would not survive intact even before pre-baking. I already knew that their frozen pizzas had round rims so I went looking for photos of the pizzas made in HRI's pizzerias, but not photos prepared for HRI for its website and elsewhere by professional photographers. Not surprisingly, I found examples of where the fluted rims flattened out. See, for example, the photos at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html?ref=thumb, and, maybe to a somewhat lesser degree, at http://s3.amazonaws.com/foodspotting-ec2/reviews/1130563/thumb_600.jpg?1323997964. To be sure, not all of the HRI pizzeria pizzas will have collapsed or flattened rims, as this photo makes abundantly clear: http://www.foodspotting.com/reviews/1109660. However, if the HRI dough formulation is fixed, as it must be because the dough is delivered to HRI's pizzerias from one of their plants, and if the window of fermentation is from 12 hours to 3 days, it would seem to me that there can be substantial variations in the performance of the dough in HRI's pizzerias.

Originally, I speculated that HRI was using more than 2% yeast, mainly for flavor. Unfortunately, I do not know of any way of determining how much yeast is in a product based on the Nutrition Facts for that product. I meant to mention in my last post that it might be appropriate to go lower on the yeast and not overdue the fermentation. For example, 2.1% would allow a slower fermentation of the dough and perhaps result in a firmer dough in a two-day fermentation period, and even more so if the dough is formed into a skin while cold. I should also mention that one of the things I discovered is that if the dough is overly extensible at the time it is to be used, for example, due to an overly high hydration or overfermentation, it is possible to re-ball the dough and roll it out again. It should roll out again surprisingly easy, with maybe only a little rest. And the rim in that case should hold up better.

It's up to you if you want to post any photos, just in case there are any clues offered by your attempt.

Peter

« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 03:16:31 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline redox

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #581 on: April 02, 2013, 06:06:58 PM »
This was made in accordance with Peter’s Reply #566.
I followed it as closely as possible.

It is said, mostly by people who fail a lot, that often more is learned by failure than success. So, here I am going for my PhD (Pizza horror Documentation).
Kitchen temp. 68 °.
Water temp. 60 °.
Final dough temp after kneading 71 °.
Total dough wt. 15.1 oz.
‘Fridge temp 38 °.

I used the dough tool and Peter’s % for a 12 inch pizza.
According to the dough tool I should’ve had a dough wt. of 15.21 oz instead of 15.1 oz. I will have to live with that ignominy.
The dough spent 28 relaxing hours in the ‘fridge and was resuscitated for 2 hours on the kitchen counter.
I rolled it into a 12 ½-inch circle.
Pre-baked at 400 ° for 4 minutes.
Cooled pizza then topped and into the oven again. I used about an extra ounce of sauce, it looked a bit sparse.
After about 4 minutes, realized that I’d forgotten to up the temp to 450 ° so I turned it up.
Pizza looked done at 12 ¾ minutes.

My wife was out of the house with the iPhone so all I had to use for pix was her old Nikon CoolPix. I looked for the instruction booklet (I never used the camera) but could only find the Spanish language booklet. My Spanish is limited to ordering from the menu at my favorite Mexican restaurant so they are not “muy bueno.”

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #582 on: April 02, 2013, 08:04:48 PM »
How did it taste Jay...looks real good.
Please tell what cheese you used....it's melting characteristics are very HRI'ish.  :chef:
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Offline redox

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #583 on: April 03, 2013, 12:33:49 PM »
Bob:

It tasted very good, better than the frozen HRI. The rim, even the parts that collapsed, were easy to eat, far less than 58-60 on the Rockwell hardness scale of the frozen pizza.
I bought the cheese from a local Italian deli, one of the old-time type where you can get delicious cannoli, imported Italian meats and cheeses. I have them cut off 1 lb chunks off the larger cheese and I vacuum seal them at home. I've never seen a wrapper on the cheese so I don't know what kind it is. Next time I go, I'll see if they'll tell me what kind it is. They have told me it's the same cheese they use to make their own pizzas.
Sorry, that was a lot of words to say that I can't ID the cheese.  :(

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #584 on: April 03, 2013, 03:06:01 PM »
Good to hear Jay. It looks pretty authentic...just wish you had more pics of the crust there. I have a 2 ball batch brewing that has some slight changes to your reply # 566 dough. Will post it up tomorrow night(that will be a 2 day ferment) and then do the other one @ 3 or 4 day frig. ferment.
That's ok about the cheese...I hope they will actually tell you the brand of that cheese.

Bob
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Offline redox

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #585 on: April 03, 2013, 03:15:59 PM »
Bob:

There's a chance it was a brand I get from Costco, the cheese I used for the HRI type was a remnant of a larger chunk and I can't be sure that it wasn't Galbani Precious Mozzarella. Costco sells it in 2 lb blocks.
Obviously, I need to be more OCD in my pizza making.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 03:18:32 PM by redox »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #586 on: April 03, 2013, 03:22:21 PM »
Bob:

There's a chance it was a brand I get from Costco, the cheese I used for the HRI type was a remnant of a larger chunk and I can't be sure that it wasn't Galbani Precious Mozzarella. Costco sells it in 2 lb blocks.
Thank you sir,
I believe Norma and I have previously discussed her using Precious brand cheese. I know it's mentioned by others and Scott knows about it's use over on the NY threads. Supposedly good commercial stuff and I just thought it looked like something non retail. That's why I asked. Time to check out Costco again.... :)

Thanks Jay.

Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #587 on: April 03, 2013, 07:05:59 PM »

I believe Norma and I have previously discussed her using Precious brand cheese. I know it's

Bob

Bob,

I don't ever recall that I tried the Precious brand of cheese, unless my memory is failing me again. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #588 on: April 04, 2013, 09:21:20 AM »
I decided to give an HRI pizza another attempt.  I used Peter’s new formulation. The way I mixed is:

1.  Put measured water into mixer bowl.
2.  Stirred flour, IDY and salt with a fork in a plastic container.
3.  Add the stirred flour, IDY and salt to the water.
4.  Mixed with flat beater until I thought mixture was incorporated.
5.  Slowing drizzled corn oil into mixture and continued using the flat beater.
6.  After mixture looked incorporated, changed to dough hook.
7.  Mixed for 5 minutes with dough hook.
8.  Scaled dough to 425 grams, balled, oiled dough ball with corn oil and placed poppy seeds on dough ball.
9.  Placed dough ball in plastic container and they went right into the refrigerator.

The final dough temperature was 73.1 degrees F.  I used my Kitchen Aid mixer.

Pictures of the process of mixing and dough formulation I used below.  I used Gold Medal unbleached AP flour.

I don’t know if I will try to make the HRI pizza tomorrow evening or Saturday.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #589 on: April 04, 2013, 09:33:34 AM »
Bob,

I don't ever recall that I tried the Precious brand of cheese, unless my memory is failing me again. 

Norma
Sorry Norma, your memory is not failing you....mine is.  ;D
It was a thread I was reading somewhere and it was Peter who was using Precious brand cheese.

btw, I have 2 dough balls going with the same formula that you are currently trying. We can have dueling banjos, I mean, pizza's!  :)

Bob

edit: my dough temp was 79 degrees, mixed the same way you did(that was a first for me,adding oil last)and boy mine sure didn't want to take in all that oil(19%)Kitchenaid with crappy C-hook. I had to finish it off on the counter by hand. After 24 hr. they had just about doubled. Right now @36hr. they have deflated slightly and seem to be holding there own at that state...they look good.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:42:39 AM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #590 on: April 04, 2013, 09:47:10 AM »
Forgive my laziness for not re-reading a few hundred posts (:D), but why is oil last?

And has anyone tried oil first, before any water is added?

I really don't know what these achieve in baking, so I am looking to learn something here.

Thanks!
Garvey

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #591 on: April 04, 2013, 09:47:56 AM »
Sorry Norma, your memory is not failing you....mine is.  ;D
It was a thread I was reading somewhere and it was Peter who was using Precious brand cheese.

btw, I have 2 dough balls going with the same formula that you are currently trying. We can have dueling banjos, I mean, pizza's!  :)

Bob

edit: my dough temp was 79 degrees, mixed the same way you did(that was a first for me,adding oil last)and boy mine sure didn't want to take in all that oil(19%)Kitchenaid with crappy C-hook. I had to finish it off on the counter by hand. After 24 hr. they had just about doubled. Right now @36hr. they have deflated slightly and seem to be holding there own at that state...they look good.

Bob,

It will be interesting to see if we get anywhere near the same results in our attempts since we are using the same formulation.  I agree we can have dueling banjos “pizzas“!  :-D

Thanks for telling your final dough temperature, how the dough balls looked after 24 hrs., and how the dough balls look after 36 hrs, and how you mixed the same way.  I wonder why the dough balls have deflated slightly at 36 hrs.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #592 on: April 04, 2013, 09:59:56 AM »
Forgive my laziness for not re-reading a few hundred posts (:D), but why is oil last?

And has anyone tried oil first, before any water is added?

I really don't know what these achieve in baking, so I am looking to learn something here.

Thanks!
Garvey


Garvey,

If you look at Peter’s posted question to Tom Lehmann at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23345.msg236891.html#msg236891
And keep reading down to Reply 14 by Tom Lehmann http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23345.msg236957.html#msg236957  You can see why I am trying the method of adding the oil last.

Norma
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #593 on: April 04, 2013, 10:10:11 AM »
Thanks, Norma.  It's still unclear to me what they achieve by that process, necessarily. For example, if oil and water were dumped in all at once vs the post-water method, how does that change the dough (if at all)?

Cheers,
Garvey

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #594 on: April 04, 2013, 10:25:05 AM »
Bob,

It will be interesting to see if we get anywhere near the same results in our attempts since we are using the same formulation.  I agree we can have dueling banjos “pizzas“!  :-D

Thanks for telling your final dough temperature, how the dough balls looked after 24 hrs., and how the dough balls look after 36 hrs, and how you mixed the same way. I wonder why the dough balls have deflated slightly at 36 hrs.

Norma
Good question Norma...and I have no idea except to say possibly all that oil there in these doughs.

Now you have peaked my interest so I went and checked the temp of my frig(I know mine is not set real real cold. 48 degrees is what I'm getting pretty much throughout the whole refer compartment. I did not monkey around at all with these dough balls, they have sat in the same spot and actually the frig has not been opened and closed much the last couple of days(gf and I have eaten out several times).

Since I was now curious I pinched off a very small piece, it has a real nice stretchiness(way better than any previous ones I'v made)and it held together to the point where I could stretch enough to see through it. When I was initially hand kneading it to get all of that oil incorporated(before placing in frig for fermentation)I thought that dough felt better for having all the water mixed in the flour first. As I said, that is not my usual way. I am one of those use the wire wisk to incorporate the fat into the flour first guys.

So we shall see. I'm even going out today to try and find some of my favorite Sorrento cheese. Hopefully going to bake one off tonight.  :drool:

Bob
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #595 on: April 04, 2013, 10:27:28 AM »
Thanks, Norma.  It's still unclear to me what they achieve by that process, necessarily. For example, if oil and water were dumped in all at once vs the post-water method, how does that change the dough (if at all)?

Cheers,
Garvey
Fully hydrate the flour I believe Garvey and possibly keep all that oil from hindering fermentation.

Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #596 on: April 04, 2013, 10:45:22 AM »
Thanks, Norma.  It's still unclear to me what they achieve by that process, necessarily. For example, if oil and water were dumped in all at once vs the post-water method, how does that change the dough (if at all)?

Cheers,
Garvey

Garvey,

I am not sure of what happens, but think that Tom's method must work better with a really high oil amount.  I know I mixed my last HRI dough the same way and the dough could have been stretched well I think, but don't know since I didn't try stretching it after rolling.

I tried a recent dough formulation on another thread and that dough had a much lower vegetable oil amount.  I tried two different ways (one with the oil added last and one with the oil added first) and got totally different results.

I wish I could understand things better.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #597 on: April 04, 2013, 10:46:13 AM »
Thanks for telling your final dough temperature, how the dough balls looked after 24 hrs., and how the dough balls look after 36 hrs, and how you mixed the same way.  I wonder why the dough balls have deflated slightly at 36 hrs.

Norma,

I went back to my notes and what Bob has experienced thus far is consistent with what I found in my tests. However, the degree of rise will depend on the finished dough temperature, the refrigerator temperature and its stability, and the number of dough balls being cooled at the same time. I believe also that Bob is using a somewhat greater hydration value than you are using, but he can correct me if I am wrong on that. But, with all this said, the dough balls shouldn't become billowy. As noted in the excerpt below from Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715, eventually the dough will soften a bit, and it may even recede a bit, but almost imperceptibly so, and it should not collapse at the two-day point in the fermentation cycle, and it may not even after three days. I believe Bob plans to use one of the dough balls beyond two days, so there may be some degradation of the dough and further softening of the gluten structure but the dough should still be usable. I believe the key thing to look for after three days is the effect of the longer fermentation on the final structure of the crumb and crust of the pizza.

Here is the excerpt from Reply 566:

Because of the high yeast content, one can expect the dough to rise even in the refrigerator as it is being cooled. But the dough balls won’t be blowing off the lids or becoming like balloons. The dough will be well behaved and well mannered. In terms of the expansion that might be expected, the dough balls might increase in volume modestly within several hours (I use poppy seeds to monitor this activity) and then stabilize. After about a day of cold fermentation, the dough ball might have about doubled in volume, but it could be more or less depending on the temperatures involved and their stability during the period of fermentation. The timing may be also delayed if there were several dough balls being cooled at the same time. It should also be pointed out that the late addition of the IDY in the dough making process, as HRI does in its frozen pizza operations, can materially delay the fermentation process. But, throughout the fermentation process, the dough balls should be firm to the touch and remain so for pretty much the entire cold fermentation period but softening slightly toward the end of fermentation. I would perhaps shoot for two days of cold fermentation, to prevent the dough from fermenting too much, but one might try for three days to see if that is an improvement or not. It is also quite likely that one will see white spots all over the dough balls shortly after being refrigerated and as the fermentation proceeds but these spots can diminish with time. This is quite normal.


Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #598 on: April 04, 2013, 10:51:09 AM »
Good question Norma...and I have no idea except to say possibly all that oil there in these doughs.

Now you have peaked my interest so I went and checked the temp of my frig(I know mine is not set real real cold. 48 degrees is what I'm getting pretty much throughout the whole refer compartment. I did not monkey around at all with these dough balls, they have sat in the same spot and actually the frig has not been opened and closed much the last couple of days(gf and I have eaten out several times).

Since I was now curious I pinched off a very small piece, it has a real nice stretchiness(way better than any previous ones I'v made)and it held together to the point where I could stretch enough to see through it. When I was initially hand kneading it to get all of that oil incorporated(before placing in frig for fermentation)I thought that dough felt better for having all the water mixed in the flour first. As I said, that is not my usual way. I am one of those use the wire wisk to incorporate the fat into the flour first guys.

So we shall see. I'm even going out today to try and find some of my favorite Sorrento cheese. Hopefully going to bake one off tonight.  :drool:

Bob

Bob,

I am glad I peaked your interest and you were curious about you dough balls.  That sounds good about the nice stretchiness of the dough.  8) 

Good luck with your HRI pizzas when you make them.  The Sorrento cheese sounds great.  I never tried that cheese before.  Looking forward to your results.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #599 on: April 04, 2013, 10:54:09 AM »
Peter,
Ooops, you are correct. I am doing a slightly higher hydration.  ;)

Bob
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