Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 85438 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #740 on: April 19, 2013, 08:48:31 PM »
Well, this is a totally different way of dough making for you and it looks like it is doing what was hoped for, no? By adding a non bloomed ady into your mix at the final stage of mixing....I too am curious just how long it will take to see some action. This is interesting Norma.

Bob,

I really donít know if that is what I hoped for.  I expected the dough to ferment some by now with all that ADY.  The only thing I did differently last week was added the salt on one side of the dough and the ADY on the other side and then gave it the final mix.  This is a photo of the bottom of the dough ball.  I canít really tell if those bubbles are bubbles or fermentation, or maybe just from the dough ball settling in the plastic container.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21741
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #741 on: April 19, 2013, 09:01:40 PM »
Norma,

I wouldn't be alarmed. The method you used to make the dough, along with the cooler temperatures, are keeping the yeast from doing its thing. In due course, I would expect the yeast to wake up and let the fermentation process take hold and rise the dough. Once that happens, the rise should speed up quite quickly. The rise won't be linear. It will take place in sizable jumps. What we don't know at this point is the fermentation window for your dough. It might be 24 hours ot it might be 48 hours. I'd rather have a restrained fermentation than one that is almost uncontrollable.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #742 on: April 19, 2013, 09:28:29 PM »
Norma,

I wouldn't be alarmed. The method you used to make the dough, along with the cooler temperatures, are keeping the yeast from doing its thing. In due course, I would expect the yeast to wake up and let the fermentation process take hold and rise the dough. Once that happens, the rise should speed up quite quickly. The rise won't be linear. It will take place in sizable jumps. What we don't know at this point is the fermentation window for your dough. It might be 24 hours ot it might be 48 hours. I'd rather have a restrained fermentation than one that is almost uncontrollable.

Peter


Thanks for telling me what is happening is normal for right now.  I will watch the dough ball over the next day and take photos every 12 hrs. so you can decide when I should use the dough ball to make the pizza.  I would rather have the fermentation restrained too, but will watch and see what happens.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9722
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #743 on: April 19, 2013, 10:16:53 PM »
Norma,

I wouldn't be alarmed.
Peter
        = you can get a 'lil franic...but jus don't panic!   ;D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #744 on: April 19, 2013, 10:37:50 PM »
        = you can get a 'lil franic...but jus don't panic!   ;D

Bob,

I didn't panic.  I just thought it wasn't right that the dough ball didn't ferment more since this morning.  There is always another day to make another dough ball.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #745 on: April 20, 2013, 07:48:49 AM »
This is how the attempted HRI clone dough ball looks after 23 Ĺ hrs. of cold fermentation.  The dough ball is firm and it really canít be seen on the top view of the dough ball from the one photo, but it looks something like pie dough in that the corn oil looks somewhat separated from the flour and water.  If anyone wants me to take a picture outside in better natural light, I can do that to see what the top of the dough ball really looks like.  The poppy seeds have moved a little until this morning.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21741
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #746 on: April 20, 2013, 08:36:18 AM »
The dough ball is firm and it really canít be seen on the top view of the dough ball from the one photo, but it looks something like pie dough in that the corn oil looks somewhat separated from the flour and water.

Norma,

As I mentioned to Bob at Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715/topicseen.html#msg245715, you can expect to see white spots on the outer surface of the dough ball. If that is what you are referring to, that would be quite normal. Those white spots will spread out and diminish and disappear for the most part as fermentation proceeds, and especially toward the end of the fermentation window.

I like what your dough is doing. I don't know if you are replicating what HRI does with its dough but I will be interested in seeing how your dough performs when time comes to use it to make the skin. In particular, I would like to see how the dough performs when it hasn't gone much beyond the doubling stage, whenever that occurs. You might recall that the articles on HRI's dough mentioned a fermentation window of from 12 hours to 3 days.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #747 on: April 20, 2013, 09:01:44 AM »
Norma,

As I mentioned to Bob at Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715/topicseen.html#msg245715, you can expect to see white spots on the outer surface of the dough ball. If that is what you are referring to, that would be quite normal. Those white spots will spread out and diminish and disappear for the most part as fermentation proceeds, and especially toward the end of the fermentation window.

I like what your dough is doing. I don't know if you are replicating what HRI does with its dough but I will be interested in seeing how your dough performs when time comes to use it to make the skin. In particular, I would like to see how the dough performs when it hasn't gone much beyond the doubling stage, whenever that occurs. You might recall that the articles on HRI's dough mentioned a fermentation window of from 12 hours to 3 days.

Peter


Peter,

I guess the white spots is what I am seeing on the dough ball.  Photo below to show what I am seeing. 

I sure donít know if I am replicating what HRI does with it dough either.  I do recall that the articles on the HRIís dough mentioned a fermentation window of 12 hours to 3 days.  I think that is a pretty big window of fermentation when so much yeast is used, but then I saw how much fermentation my last dough ball had and was useable.  I also recall about your dough ball in your last experiment.  I will try to use the dough ball to make the pizza when the dough ball hasnít gone much beyond the doubling stage. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline redox

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1051
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #748 on: April 20, 2013, 12:34:24 PM »
Ok, I'm just free-wheelin' here but has anyone ever tried a fat like lard or coconut oil, you know, something that's solid at room temperatures? As a way of getting layers into the finished pizza. There're probably many reasons why it won't work but I'm just askin'.
I got a dough docker and a new KD8000 scale so I'm locked and loaded for another HRI try next week. But first I wanna try BTB's Thin Crust with Semolina with a 12-inch cutter pan.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #749 on: April 20, 2013, 08:52:10 PM »
This is how the dough ball looks after a little over 36 Ĺ hours.  The poppy seed spacings havenít changed a lot, but it can be seen on the side of the plastic container that the dough ball is fermenting.  Also, there is one soft bubble on the one top side of the dough ball.  The rest of the dough ball is still firm.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #750 on: April 21, 2013, 08:38:54 AM »
By looking at the spacing of poppy seeds this morning after 48 hours of cold fermentation the dough ball has not doubled in size, because the spacing of the poppy seeds are not a little over 1 ľĒ apart.  The dough ball on the bottom does look like it is fermenting well.  There are now two small bubbles on the top of the dough ball, but the rest of dough ball is still firm.  This dough ball seems to be fermenting slowly with the higher amount of yeast that was used and it did not have any rapid fermentation at any point in time that I could see.

I am going to have to use the dough ball to make a pizza later today even if it doesnít double in size, because tomorrow I will be too busy to make a pizza. 

I wondered when if I should roll out this dough ball, or try to pressed it open by hand and also if I should make the skin larger than my last attempt and bunch up the fluted rim a little more to see if a thinner middle skin would make the bottom crust crisper after the bake of around 425 degrees F.  I do plan on dressing the pizza without a pre-bake after room temperature proofing the skin on the dark disk for about 15 to 20 minutes, unless I should try something else. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21741
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #751 on: April 21, 2013, 09:14:09 AM »
Norma,

I'm not quite sure what is happening to your dough. I went back through all of my notes on my experiments, and even when using the ADY dry I did not experience what you have gotten with the latest dough. There were a couple of instances where the dough seemed to ferment quite slowly, with little increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds, but eventually the spacing did increase. I even remember asking myself at the time if perhaps the poppy seed trick does not work as well or as consistently with the HRI type of clone dough, with all the oil, etc. November, who showed me the poppy seed trick, said that it didn't always work. But, like you, I saw from the sides and bottom of the glass storage container that there were the usual bubbles of fermentation. Also, to my eye the dough seemed to expand even without a lot of increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds.

In Reply 734 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249428.html#msg249428, you mentioned that you added the salt and the dry ADY after the oil. Did you add the salt and dry ADY in sequence (salt followed by the dry ADY) or simultaneously? I'm not sure it makes a difference but it may be useful to know for future reference. In cases like this, my practice is to repeat the experiment to see if the same results are achieved. As I mentioned before, the dry ADY trick is one that is used to prolong the fermentation period. I believe that Papa John's uses that method so that its dough will sustain a fermentation period (cold) of up to eight days. Maybe your latest dough is one such dough, but unlikely to go out to eight days because you are using considerably more ADY by several orders of magnitude.

I agree that you should use the dough, for the reasons you mentioned. There is clearly fermentation no matter what the poppy seeds are telling you. I'm not sure that it makes a difference whether you roll the dough out or press it out. Both methods were used over the course of the history of HRI. If you were to be consistent with present practice, you might press out the skin if it lends itself to that method.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #752 on: April 21, 2013, 10:11:30 AM »
Norma,

I'm not quite sure what is happening to your dough. I went back through all of my notes on my experiments, and even when using the ADY dry I did not experience what you have gotten with the latest dough. There were a couple of instances where the dough seemed to ferment quite slowly, with little increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds, but eventually the spacing did increase. I even remember asking myself at the time if perhaps the poppy seed trick does not work as well or as consistently with the HRI type of clone dough, with all the oil, etc. November, who showed me the poppy seed trick, said that it didn't always work. But, like you, I saw from the sides and bottom of the glass storage container that there were the usual bubbles of fermentation. Also, to my eye the dough seemed to expand even without a lot of increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds.

In Reply 734 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249428.html#msg249428, you mentioned that you added the salt and the dry ADY after the oil. Did you add the salt and dry ADY in sequence (salt followed by the dry ADY) or simultaneously? I'm not sure it makes a difference but it may be useful to know for future reference. In cases like this, my practice is to repeat the experiment to see if the same results are achieved. As I mentioned before, the dry ADY trick is one that is used to prolong the fermentation period. I believe that Papa John's uses that method so that its dough will sustain a fermentation period (cold) of up to eight days. Maybe your latest dough is one such dough, but unlikely to go out to eight days because you are using considerably more ADY by several orders of magnitude.

I agree that you should use the dough, for the reasons you mentioned. There is clearly fermentation no matter what the poppy seeds are telling you. I'm not sure that it makes a difference whether you roll the dough out or press it out. Both methods were used over the course of the history of HRI. If you were to be consistent with present practice, you might press out the skin if it lends itself to that method.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for going back through all of your notes on your experiments and telling me the spacing of your poppy seeds on your dough ball did eventually increase.  I had also wondered if the poppy seed trick works with this dough since all the oil that is added.  I recall November said the poppy seed trick doesnít always work.   I thought the bottom of the dough was looking okay in the amounts it was fermenting, after I initially wondered if it was fermenting at all. 

I posted at Reply 738 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249594.html#msg249594
that I did add the salt after 2 minutes into the final mix.  I could see the dough tighten up at first when the salt was added.  I didnít post that I mixed on speed 2 for 2 minutes after the salt was added and then added the ADY and mixed again, so the salt and ADY were sequenced and not mixed simultaneously.  I can repeat this same dough experiment later if the final pizza turns out okay.  I think the dry ADY trick is a good one.  I never really knew about that until this thread.  Interesting that you believe that Papa Johnís uses that method so that its dough will sustain a fermentation period of up to eight days.  I sure donít think my dough ball would last up to 8 days because of the high amount of ADY.

I also wanted to add although my fridge temperature was initially lower in temperature when the dough ball went into the refrigerator, now is it actually the normal temperature.  I know fridge temperatures change from opening and shutting the door, defrost cycles..etc.  It is also cool in our area right now. 

I will try to press out the dough by hand.

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #753 on: April 21, 2013, 08:43:16 PM »
This is how this attempt went on an the HRI clone dough and HRI clone pizza. 

The dough ball didnít double in size by the measurements of the poppy seeds spacing, but the dough ball did look fermented enough. The dough ball was taken out of the fridge at 6:30 PM and I thought I would first try to roll the dough out to a skin a little, and then try to press out the skin by hand.  After rolling for a little I tried to pressed it out the rest of the way and even tried to pick it up and stretch by hand, but as can be seen there wanted to be two tears in the skin, so I finished rolling the skin out to 13Ē.  I rolled to 13Ē to see if a thinner crust might be able to be crisper on the bottom crust.  I first folded over the edges of the rim and then fluted.  The skin was docked before fluting.  The skin on the dark disk was tempered for 20 minutes at room temperature at about 70 degrees F.  A couple parts of the fluted rim wanted to fall some so I pushed them back up and fluted those parts again. 

The pizza was dressed right after the skin was tempered.  Until the sauce and mozzarella were applied the one side of the fluted rim wanted to sag down, so I fluted that again.  Until the whole pizza was dressed the fluted edges seemed to behave better, in that they did stay upright then.  I didnít use a lot of bench flour when rolling, so I donít know if I would have used more bench flour if that might have made the fluted edges stay upright better.  I could see that even before trying to flute the skin that it was going to give those dimples right near the edges of the dark disk.  I donít know if more flour would have been used when rolling if that would improve those dimples either, but I did see that the longer the fluted skin sat out the more it wanted to stay upright without sagging.

The pizza was dressed with a hot sausage I had purchased at my local supermarket on sale for .99.  The amounts of ingredients used on this pizza were 7 ounces of the hot sausage, 6.5 ounces of LMPS mozzarella, 14 slices of pepperoni, 1.1 ounce of diced green peppers and 4 ounces of sauce. 

The pizza was baked on the second to the top rack of the oven at 425 degrees F for 15 minutes, then I removed the bottom rack and put it on the top oven rack position for the last 2 minutes because the cheese wasnít browning enough.  I would have put the top rack in at first, but I thought it would be too close to the pizza for me to be able to watch what was going on in the bake.  Total bake time was 17 minutes.  The fluted edges did stay upright in the oven, with no sagging.  The edge crust got a little too brown.  There was no real gum lines as can be seen in the photos.  The baked pizza was 11 Ĺ ď.  I liked the thicker rim crust better than when I fluted thinner in the looks and taste.  The bottom crust didnít seem any thinner to me though.

The HRI clone pizza did turn out very tasty in my opinion, in that the crust did have a good taste and the bottom crust and fluted edges were flaky.  I sure donít know though if they were flaky enough, since I never ate any real HRI pizzas at their pizzerias.  I did really like the combination of toppings on this pizza.  At least I also found out a pre-bake of the skin really wasnít needed to make a decent pizza.

Donít mind my fingers because I was outside working today, so my fingernails arenít in the best shape.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 08:54:42 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #754 on: April 21, 2013, 08:48:29 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #755 on: April 21, 2013, 08:50:30 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21253
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #756 on: April 21, 2013, 08:52:53 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline redox

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1051
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #757 on: April 27, 2013, 12:52:04 PM »
Peter,
I'm ready to try another HRI pizza. Would it be out of bounds on this thread to try to make it in a 12-inch cutter pan? I want to do a sausage and mushroom (and maybe pepperoni) pizza. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Online Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9722
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #758 on: April 27, 2013, 01:24:47 PM »
Peter,
I'm ready to try another HRI pizza. Would it be out of bounds on this thread to try to make it in a 12-inch cutter pan? I want to do a sausage and mushroom (and maybe pepperoni) pizza. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Jay,
I did one a week ago in a 12"cutter pan. I used some technique that lamination expert member John "fazzari" is helping me with...I inadvertently used a cutter pan instead of his recommended "straight on the stone". I can tell you that mine did not work although it did produce some areas that had very promising crazy good layers/flakiness. I have not given up on this HRI deal and now that my bronchitis is gone I'm back in the saddle.  8)

Bob
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 01:26:25 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #759 on: April 28, 2013, 01:06:05 PM »
Head hurting.  Trying to catch up.  Must sift through much information.  Want to experiment.  No time. 

Loo
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!


 

pizzapan