Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 94674 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #780 on: May 23, 2013, 03:23:31 PM »
Well hell guys, maybe I'm on the right track!  :-D
I'm sure you are...or at least not far off the track; your determination is legendary!  ;D

CDN's description is a good one for you Chau. Just don't get too caught up in the "phyllo" amount of layering(thank goodness you don't have to creat that much layering, huh?) this HRI is more subtle in the layering department. ;)  Random pockets/minor separating s might be a good descriptor. I would also like to add the word "crispyness" in here.

^^i agree.  it's kind of like a very dense and oily phyllo pastry, if you can imagine that.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 03:25:19 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline CDNpielover

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 676
  • Location: Sonoran Desert
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #781 on: May 23, 2013, 03:50:35 PM »
yes, it's not at all like a phyllo, but I can't think of a better way to describe it.  Phyllo is the closest thing I can think of that flakes like that.  I've certainly never had a pie crust that flakes like a HRI pizza (although I don't eat a lot of pie LOL).

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #782 on: May 23, 2013, 03:58:03 PM »
I need to google some side shots but from your descriptions, this crust sounds more like or closer to a Chicago deep dish crust then a traditional NY type pizza crust.  It is thin, dense, crispy, flaky, oily, little to no chew.  Is it similar to a Chi deep dish crust or still different? 

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #783 on: May 23, 2013, 04:02:46 PM »
yes, it's not at all like a phyllo, but I can't think of a better way to describe it.  Phyllo is the closest thing I can think of that flakes like that.  I've certainly never had a pie crust that flakes like a HRI pizza (although I don't eat a lot of pie LOL).
CDN, do you think I would be wrong in describing that very bottom 1/16" of the crust; the part that gets real brown...would you say that is sort of like if you took and smashed down some phyllo dough and it then gives the HRI crust it's crispy snap?

I'm just trying to give Chau some helpful descriptions since he's never had one.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #784 on: May 23, 2013, 04:09:22 PM »
I need to google some side shots but from your descriptions, this crust sounds more like or closer to a Chicago deep dish crust then a traditional NY type pizza crust.  It is thin, dense, crispy, flaky, oily, little to no chew.  Is it similar to a Chi deep dish crust or still different?
Oh no; definetly nothing like NY. Look at all the oil in this thing.DD is much more appropriate Chau...but not as thin as a traditional Chi-thin. Somewhere in between the 2 styles.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #785 on: May 23, 2013, 04:09:53 PM »
Chau,

You might want to look at Reply 571 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245795.html#msg245795 if you already haven't to see the thickness and also the link on Slice to see some slice photos.  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #786 on: May 23, 2013, 04:17:14 PM »
Chau,

You might want to look at Reply 571 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245795.html#msg245795 if you already haven't to see the thickness and also the link on Slice to see some slice photos.  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued

Norma
Excellent shots Norma.
I have been wanting to chime in an say that I think it's a mistake to say that there is not any chew to this crust. Don't want Chau to go down a road looking for just dry flakines. One of the serious eats pics shows some serious gum...how can that not be chewy? And that is not a defect pic either IMO. You have several things going on at once with this crust...it's very popular for good reason.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #787 on: May 23, 2013, 05:50:40 PM »
Excellent shots Norma.
I have been wanting to chime in an say that I think it's a mistake to say that there is not any chew to this crust. Don't want Chau to go down a road looking for just dry flakines. One of the serious eats pics shows some serious gum...how can that not be chewy? And that is not a defect pic either IMO. You have several things going on at once with this crust...it's very popular for good reason.

Bob,

At Reply 636  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg247771.html#msg247771 I posted a link to some other photos at Home Run Inn.  I mentioned that I thought the one pizza had a gum line.  At Reply 717 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249201.html#msg249201 Peter posts why the pizza might have a gum line. 

I had what I thought was a gum line on my pizza at Reply 282 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171 Different attempts I made had somewhat of a gum line near the middle of the pizza.  I wouldn't call any of those pizzas I attempted dry flakiness in the crust, but then I can't recall any chewiness when I ate them either.  Those slices even were very easy to eat.  Maybe I don't even understand what chewiness is when it is related to the HRI pizza.

What do you recall when you ate a real HRI pizza if there was any chewiness or not?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #788 on: May 23, 2013, 06:17:00 PM »
Bob,

At Reply 636  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg247771.html#msg247771 I posted a link to some other photos at Home Run Inn.  I mentioned that I thought the one pizza had a gum line.  At Reply 717 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249201.html#msg249201 Peter posts why the pizza might have a gum line. 

I had what I thought was a gum line on my pizza at Reply 282 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171 Different attempts I made had somewhat of a gum line near the middle of the pizza.  I wouldn't call any of those pizzas I attempted dry flakiness in the crust, but then I can't recall any chewiness when I ate them either.  Those slices even were very easy to eat.  Maybe I don't even understand what chewiness is when it is related to the HRI pizza.

What do you recall when you ate a real HRI pizza if there was any chewiness or not?

Norma
I believe chewiness is a very subjective word in pizza making Norma. One mans "chew" can be another mans "chaw"; if you will.  :D

From the many great pizzas and experiments to come out of Chau's kitchen; over time, I think I have come to understand his vocabulary when he describes his various doughs. He likes a thin egg shell like exterior with a "pillowy", melt in your mouth crumb. Not a dense; small, tight air holes, bread-like chewy structure that gets tough quickly upon cool down. I see that in many NY slice type pies.

Given that; in trying to describe HRI crust to Chau...I think this pizza has a minimal gum layer, stemming from a thin "chewy" dense pie dough like layer that incorporates pockets of separations, all sitting upon the final lower level of the dense, crispy thin bottom layer.

Hope I am making sense here.... :-\

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #789 on: May 23, 2013, 11:23:16 PM »
I made two pies,  64% hydration and 60% hydration.   Both were good and slightly different in texture.  Not sure which one is closer to the HRI though.  Going to just post the pics from my cell phone and will comment later.  Here's the 64% hydration one, 340gm rolled out to a 10.5" disk about 1/8" thick.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:49:08 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #790 on: May 23, 2013, 11:28:13 PM »
A few more pics from the first pie.  I tried to take a lot of the crumb shots to show the layering effect in different parts of the crust.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:50:30 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #791 on: May 23, 2013, 11:37:03 PM »
This is the 60% hydration pie.  So 60% in my dry elevated climate would probably be closer to 56% at sea level.  This dough was 316gm rolled out to 10.5".  Slightly thinner than 1/8" and slightly thinner than the first pie. This crust did have a drier crunchier and flakier mouth feel.  A bit more biscuity with slightly less chew but not much chew with either pie.  Both were very good.  I think this one held its rim a bit better but that might have been due to a slightly different technique in forming the rim.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:51:58 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #792 on: May 24, 2013, 12:08:47 AM »
I wanted to make a few observations.  Both pies had about 25% butter shortening in the dough and 39% and 35% water respectively (64% hydration and 60% hydration). 
-Despite the high fat content, the dough did not feel greasy to me.  Did not taste greasy or have a greasy mouthfeel.  I think this is due to the use of shortening as opposed to corn oil.
-Texture:  both pies had a very similar texture to a flaky pie crust but a bit more biscuity with the 64% dough having just a slightly doughier taste.  When I ate a piece of the crust along from the rim of the 64% dough it was very reminscence of the texture of a danish butter cookie or shortbread cookie except not as soft.  It was a bit drier and stiffer but it powdered in the mouth just the same. 
-Gumline: there is a definite gum line in both pies.  More prominent in the first one b/c of the higher thickness factor.
-Both pies were cut family style after cooling a bit on my grill rack.  Slices from both pies held straight out without any flex to them.  If I was to put a small amount of pressure by bending the slices, they seem to break quite easily.  There were some small chips and flakes on the pan after the pies were cut.  Especially the rim would break and flake off. 
-Darkness of the undercrust - I don't know if this is too dark, but I wanted to bake them out to make sure that they were crispy.  I also use 1% sugar in both formulas. 

Overall I was very happy with the results.  A friend and I ate almost both entire pies.  We were  stuffed!  The pies are definitely heavy on the stomach due to the high fat content. 

I also use Chicago Bob's sauce recipe he posted in his Chicago thin crust thread.  I liked the sauce as it was different from my usual one I make.  I used 6 in 1 tomatoes and added spices according to his recipe.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22946.msg236519.html#msg236519


I don't think I will tweak this formula too much.  It was very good.  Thanks to Loowaters, Peter, Garvey, Norma, Bob, CDNpielover, and anyone else who posted info in this thread.  I read most of it and felt that it helped a lot. 

Chau
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 07:42:30 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #793 on: May 24, 2013, 07:47:38 AM »


Chau,

Both of your pizzas look very tasty.  :P Your pies also look very neat in appearance like all of your other pizzas also do.  What do you think about the taste of the pies you made compared to other styles of pizzas you have made before?  I find the texture of how you described your crusts interesting.     


I don't know what the “effective” hydration was of the doughs I tried in this thread compared to what you said your “effective” hydrations were, but 19% corn oil I used I would think would have more of a wetting effect to the dough than the butter shortening and the lower amount of water you used in the ratio to the butter shortening.  I do think that you are probably right that the shortening you used probably helped to make your rim crusts stay upright.  I know I had some problems with my fluted crusts staying upright before the bake, or during the bake.  I don't think any of my attempts had a greasy mouth feel after the bake, but then I can't compare mine with yours, because you used different formulations than I have been trying.  I see you also had gum lines.  What do you think contributes to gum lines?   

Do you think you found your perfect thin Chicago style pizza?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #794 on: May 24, 2013, 07:50:15 AM »
Chau,

I forgot to ask you how you baked your pizzas.  What oven temperature did you use and what rack position did you bake on?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 972
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #795 on: May 24, 2013, 09:54:18 AM »
It's interesting and fun to see all the interest shown here about one of the greatest Chicago thin crust pizza success stories ever known.  When I first got married and thereafter lived in my wife's Chicago neighborhood for a while, we would visit this little bar on 31st Street called Home Run Inn.  It was a tiny, little dive with about 10 bar stools, about 6 four-person tables, and in back in full view to all was the small pizza making kitchen.  Today, their home restaurant is a "giant" restaurant with even a huge second floor eating area.  And they have maybe 5 to 6 satellite restaurants in the Chicago area and a factory making frozen pizzas for distribution to grocery stores across the nation.

Even back then, they had a terrific local reputation for fantastically great pizza and their main competitor was Chesdan's Pizzeria located just a few miles from HRI on Archer Ave (does anyone remember that?).  In time HRI expanded and grew and grew, buying out adjacent houses for restaurant expansion and parking lots.  Their style of pizza was then very different from all the Chicago style thin crust scene.  Many in the media and community came to characterize HRI's pizza not as "thin crust" pizza, but "thick-thin."  It definitely was not as thin as typical thin crust pizza in the Chicago (or other) area.  But, of course, it was not as thick as the dough on many of the Chicago style deep dish pizzerias that were becoming in vogue back then.  But their frozen pizzas do not to me resemble the pizzas that use to be served at their great original restaurant. 

Below is a link to a brief mentioning and some pictures of our last visit to the original HRI on 31st Street in Chicago.  Hopefully this summer, my wife and I can visit our old great pizza stomping grounds again where we ate many, many of their great pizzas.

                                                                                                              --BTB                    :P

Chicago Pizza Trip -- Through Thick and Thin
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8921.msg82899.html#msg82899

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #796 on: May 24, 2013, 10:29:17 AM »
BTB,

Your review of HRI was very interesting and I appreciate you did those other reviews too.  I don't recall that I read that before.  If you were to describe the crust at HRI from years ago, how would you describe the flakiness in the bottom crust and did that flakiness change any over the years?  Any other descriptions on HRI pizzas would be helpful too. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #797 on: May 24, 2013, 10:38:33 AM »

Chau,

Both of your pizzas look very tasty.  :P Your pies also look very neat in appearance like all of your other pizzas also do.  What do you think about the taste of the pies you made compared to other styles of pizzas you have made before?  I find the texture of how you described your crusts interesting...

I see you also had gum lines.  What do you think contributes to gum lines?   

Do you think you found your perfect thin Chicago style pizza?

Norma

Thank you Norma for the nice words.  I think the gumline is directly related to the low hydration and density of the dough.  I suppose there is a very minute gumline even on NY style pies where the sauce meets the dough.  B/c this dough is so dense, I think the gumline is more prominent.  Especially since the crust is as BTB described it, thick thin.  Not thin and not thick.  I noticed that the gumline was thinner on the 2nd pie b/c of it's thinner profile. 

I definitely have not found my perfect Chicago Thin crust pizza.  I haven't had it before so I can't compare.  Maybe some day I'll make it up to Chicago to try their DD and thin crust that so many rave about.  Until then, this will suffice.  I did enjoy it quite a bit.  It was very different from my what I usually make.  Interesting how the same ingredients used in different proportions can create a very different experience and dish altogether. 

As far as how I baked these.  I don't have any cutter or perforated pans like the ones I've seen in this thread.  I rolled out the dough, docked it, and formed the rim on parchment paper.  I baked these in the home oven at 525F for about 13-14min.   The pies baked on the parchment paper for 5 minutes and then the parchment paper was removed so that they baked on the stone for the remaining time.   I was luck and got a very even bake the first time.  I used an electric oven and baked it on the 3rd shelf (1 below the middle rack).

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #798 on: May 24, 2013, 10:39:10 AM »
BTB,

Your review of HRI was very interesting and I appreciate you did those other reviews too.  I don't recall that I read that before.  If you were to describe the crust at HRI from years ago, how would you describe the flakiness in the bottom crust and did that flakiness change any over the years?  Any other descriptions on HRI pizzas would be helpful too. 

Norma
+1.  Yes I would love to hear how you describe the HRI crust BTB. 

Chau

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #799 on: May 24, 2013, 06:51:39 PM »
Thank you Norma for the nice words.  I think the gumline is directly related to the low hydration and density of the dough.  I suppose there is a very minute gumline even on NY style pies where the sauce meets the dough.  B/c this dough is so dense, I think the gumline is more prominent.  Especially since the crust is as BTB described it, thick thin.  Not thin and not thick.  I noticed that the gumline was thinner on the 2nd pie b/c of it's thinner profile. 

I definitely have not found my perfect Chicago Thin crust pizza.  I haven't had it before so I can't compare.  Maybe some day I'll make it up to Chicago to try their DD and thin crust that so many rave about.  Until then, this will suffice.  I did enjoy it quite a bit.  It was very different from my what I usually make.  Interesting how the same ingredients used in different proportions can create a very different experience and dish altogether. 

As far as how I baked these.  I don't have any cutter or perforated pans like the ones I've seen in this thread.  I rolled out the dough, docked it, and formed the rim on parchment paper.  I baked these in the home oven at 525F for about 13-14min.   The pies baked on the parchment paper for 5 minutes and then the parchment paper was removed so that they baked on the stone for the remaining time.   I was luck and got a very even bake the first time.  I used an electric oven and baked it on the 3rd shelf (1 below the middle rack).

Chau

Chau,

Thanks for posting why you think there were gum lines.  I am always interested in what you think.  I am glad you enjoyed your pizzas.  I still have a lot to learn about thin crust Chicago style pizzas too.  I haven't found my favorite one yet either.  I know it is also interesting to me too that the same ingredients used in different proportions can create a very different experience and different pizza.

Thanks also for your bake times, temperature and your rack position. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

pizzapan