Author Topic: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation  (Read 112466 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2008, 06:33:20 AM »
George,

Actually, you weren't all that far off with your 2 1/2 cups of flour. For example, if you used 2 1/2 cups of General Mills all-purpose flour and measured it out textbook style using both a 1-cup measuring cup and a 1/2-cup measuring cup, the final dough formulation would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (42%):
ADY (1.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Corn Oil (24%):
Total (169.5%):
312.31 g  |  11.02 oz | 0.69 lbs
131.17 g  |  4.63 oz | 0.29 lbs
5.47 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
5.47 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
74.95 g | 2.64 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.55 tbsp | 0.35 cups
529.36 g | 18.67 oz | 1.17 lbs | TF = N/A

As you will note, the difference in total dough weight is a little over 1 1/2 ounces (18.67 ounces minus 17.09 ounces). That means that if you used the full 18.67 ounces of dough to make a 14" pizza, the crust would be a little thicker than what Loo intended with his dough formulation. To retain the same crust characteristics, which is what you really want to do, you would just make the pizza a bit bigger. In this case, the pizza would be a bit over 14.5". That's not a big difference, but to be a purist that is what you would use.

Peter


Offline LPcreation

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 11:29:59 AM »
I tried your pizza loowaters.  It came out pretty well but I had a problem getting any color in the crust.  I didn't have any sausage either so I used pepperoni.


Offline loowaters

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 11:52:08 AM »
I'm not the expert on things like this but I'm pretty sure a longer ferment like a one or two day fridge rise to fully develop the sugars that create that browning could be useful for you.  I haven't had problems with the color but I also haven't had that big of a crust ring on my pie.  I pinch up the sides a bit and top right to that rim.

Loo
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 12:03:50 PM »
LPcreation,

Despite his thoughtful disclaimer, Loo is the expert on the HRI pizza and its finished characteristics. However, I think it may help him and others to know exactly how you made the pizza. As Loo noted, dough made using all-purpose flour and with only a few hours of fermentation will often result in a finished crust with poor coloration because it takes time for the biochemical activity to extract the natural sugars from the flour (damaged starch) to then be available as residual sugar at the time of baking to produce good crust coloration. Instead, you have to rely more on the improved heat transfer characteristics of the large amount of oil in the dough and also how you bake the pizza (e.g., directly on a preheated stone, using a pan or disk or screen of the proper type, etc.) and where the pizza is positioned in the oven for baking. The bake time and temperature will also be critical factors in achieving good crust coloration. Providing this level of detail may offer clues as to what happened in your case. If you changed any of the ingredients or amounts or if you deviated from Loo's instructions, it will, of course, be necessary to have that information in order to conduct a proper diagnosis.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 12:21:44 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline LPcreation

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 12:54:34 PM »
Quote from: Loowaters
Begin by dissolving salt in 110-115* water.  Add ADY and stir it in then let bloom for five minutes.  Add half of the flour and begin to mix.  I did the mixing with the dough hook of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  Once it comes together add the oil and half of the remaining flour (3/4 of all flour now in mixer).  Once that comes together, knead on 3 speed for 5 minutes.  Add remaining flour and mix until combined then knead for 3 additional minutes on 3 speed.  If it seems a little scrappy, add water one teaspoon at a time until it comes together.  This will be a pretty stiff dough.

I follow his recipe/bake times/temps exactly except for the following....

1 - I forgot to add the salt to the water to bloom the ADY.

2 - I didn't follow his flour timing, meaning after the ADY bloomed, I threw everything in the KA and mixed it.

I plan on making it again so I'll be more aware of the timing of when to add ingredients.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2008, 01:16:44 PM »
LPcreation,

I doubt that the changes you made were responsible for the lack of crust coloration. What kind of disk did you use?

Peter

Offline LPcreation

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2008, 01:25:56 PM »
LPcreation,

I doubt that the changes you made were responsible for the lack of crust coloration. What kind of disk did you use?

Peter

I put it right on the stone.  I didn't think that would make a difference because of the heat from the stone.  Maybe I thought wrong?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2008, 02:02:25 PM »
LPcreation,

When I made my initial HRI clone, I used a pizza stone, which is equivalent to the deck oven method still used by HRI at its original location (the other locations have gone to disks and conveyor ovens). However, in my case, I used a 24-hour cold fermentation, which no doubt allowed for more sugar extraction. I described my efforts at the original HRI thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51985.html#msg51985 (see Replies 26-29). In my effort, I was trying to replicate the methods used at the original HRI location.

If, in your case, the bottom browned before the top crust did, causing you concern that the pizza would burn, then that suggests a couple of possible solutions: using either a longer bake at lower oven temperature or else moving the pizza off of the stone to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat to help brown the top crust. I do the latter all the time in my oven, even if the instructions I am following do not call for doing so. Going to a longer fermentation should also be a solution. However, because of the high amount of yeast in the dough, it may be better to cold ferment the dough rather than ferment it at room temperature. Otherwise, you may find that the dough blows, or overferments, before the sugar levels in the dough have meaningfully increased. Of course, one way to mitigate that effect would be to just use less yeast. However, when I did my research on the HRI pizza, achieving a "yeasty" flavor in the crust was something that was considered an important part of the authentic HRI pizza experience.

Peter

Offline LPcreation

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2008, 03:03:46 PM »
Thanks Peter, I'll try your suggestions.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2008, 03:08:19 PM »
Thanks Peter, I'll try your suggestions.

LPcreation,

I hope you will report back with your results.

Peter

Offline zitomj

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2008, 05:37:00 PM »
I used to have a pizza place in the Chicago area and I bought my cheese from the same supplier as HRI. Their salesman told me it was equal parts of red blue and green cheese which I also bought and never paid attention to what it was other then mozzarella but I think it might have been skim, 2% and whole milk mozzarella. This is the company that supplied them back then

Battaglia Distributing
2500 S Ashland Ave
Chicago, IL , 60608-5321 
Phone: 312-738-1111
FAX: 312-738-4030

Offline loowaters

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2008, 08:13:13 PM »
I used to have a pizza place in the Chicago area and I bought my cheese from the same supplier as HRI. Their salesman told me it was equal parts of red blue and green cheese which I also bought and never paid attention to what it was other then mozzarella but I think it might have been skim, 2% and whole milk mozzarella. This is the company that supplied them back then

Battaglia Distributing
2500 S Ashland Ave
Chicago, IL , 60608-5321 
Phone: 312-738-1111
FAX: 312-738-4030

This is a good piece of info.  I know a guy (and play golf with him, too) that owns a pizza place in Cedar Rapids that uses Battaglia as his supplier.  I'll be seeing him in a couple weeks again and I'll ask about Battaglia's cheese options.  Thanks.
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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2008, 08:49:29 AM »
I thought I would give a try at making an HRI pizza along the lines that Loo indicated in the start of this thread.  The results were both good and bad.  The good was that the pizza tasted great.  The bad was that it lacked a lot of the characteristics of an HRI pizza that I previously knew.  I thought I followed the instructions well, but something just didn't come out right, so I thought I'd describe what I did here and see if I can learn more about doing this better.
 
Since I got use to using bakers percentages, I used those in Peter's Reply #23 above for a 14" pizza, which were as follows:
 
Flour (100%):  285.79 g  |  10.08 oz | 0.63 lbs
Water (42%):  120.03 g  |  4.23 oz | 0.26 lbs
ADY (1.75%):  5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):  5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Corn Oil (24%):  68.59 g | 2.42 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.08 tbsp | 0.32 cups
Total (169.5%): 484.42 g | 17.09 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.111
 
I began by dissolving salt in water warmed to 110 degrees, then added the ADY and let it bloom for 5-8 minutes, then added half the flour (sifted) and mixed with a wooden spoon and hand.  After mixing for a number of minutes, I added the oil and about half of the remaining flour and kneaded some more for a few minutes.  Then added the remaining flour and kneaded yet some more.  The dough was very scrappy and crumbly., so much so that I had to add an additional teaspoon of water . . . and another . . . and another . . . probably about 6 or 7 teaspoons more in total.  It was a pretty stiff dough and except for the amount of oil, it seemed similar to cracker crust dough. 
 
I placed the formed dough ball in a bowl, covered with a kitchen towel and put it in a warm oven (about 80 degrees) for a couple of hours.  I could then see some action of the yeast in little bursting buds on the exterior of the dough ball, but the ball didn't seem to be expanding much.  Since I wasn't going to use the dough until the following evening, I put it into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator (as is my usual practice on most kinds of pizzas).  In the morning after reading one of the threads on cracker crust methods, some had suggested that cracker crust dough balls don't do well cooling in the refrigerator, so I took the ziplocked dough ball out of the refrigerator and left it on the counter for about 10 hours, even tho this technically wasn't a cracker crust.
 
Later that evening, I put the dough ball, which hardly rose at all, in a covered bowl and back in a warm oven for a short while in preparation for rolling out the dough (anticpating that this was going to be hard to roll out).  As was suggested in another thread, warm dough, especially when stiff, is easier to roll out when warm.  But even when a little warm, this dough was still pretty difficult to roll out.  I rolled out the dough as best I could, then rolled up the skin onto my rolling pin, then rolled it off onto my slightly oiled 14" dark, anodized nonperforated cutter pan.  The dough was very crumbly and scrappy and I had to patch up the skin a lot (as you can see from the picture below).
 
I started to attempt to create a small rim on the skin (like exists on HRI pizzas), but it was a little difficult, so I just left it as is.  I debated whether to par bake the skin, but did not.  I simply topped the skin with around 8 to 10 oz. of non-drained 6 in 1 sauce (with a mix of Penzeys pizza spices, minced garlic, white pepper, sea salt, ginger, and a dash of honey).  Then I put on some raw sweet Italian sausage that I got from my favorite Italian sausage shop (99% of all Chicago pizzerias put their sausage on their pizzas raw without pre-cooking).  I then added about 2 oz. of cut-up provolone cheese and about 6 oz. of shredded low moisture part skim mozzarella, and about 2 or 3 oz. of some good fresh mozzarella that I had left in the refrigerator.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 10:36:20 AM by BTB »

Offline BTB

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2008, 08:51:16 AM »
I then preheated the oven to 450 degrees -- a little less than Loo's suggestion -- to cook a little longer, which helps with cooking the sausage better.  I know N.Y. and other style pizzas cook at a much, much higher temperature, but not Chicago thin or pan pizzas normally.  I cooked this pizza on the second to the bottom rack for about 18 to 19 minutes, turning 180 degrees halfway through that time.
 
The pizza, which turned out very good and tasty, had a much thinner crust than I anticipated.  But it was still a pretty crispy and delicious pizza.

Offline BTB

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2008, 08:53:15 AM »
I wondered afterwards why the dough ball didn't expand or rise very much.  I couldn't punch it down like Loo suggested because it never expanded to the point where I could do that.  My ADY was good with the expiration date about 7 or 8 months hence and I used another one of packets in the same strip a couple of weeks earlier and the yeast worked well.  In reading several other postings, I noticed Tom Lehmann's pizzamaking advice in one of them " . .  don't mix the yeast with the salt  . . . This is bad for the yeast as it will have an inhibiting affect on the yeast in the concentrated solution."  Oh well, I had mixed the yeast in the water with the dissolved salt, so I will probably refrain from doing that the next time I try this formulation.  Also I think I will increase the hydration as well as the TF (Thickness Factor) to .125 or more (I noticed afterwards Loos thought to do so).  While I don't think so, I do wonder if sifting the flour had any affect.

The evening after I made this pizza, my adult son came over and saw the leftover pizza (pictured below) in a bag in the refrigerator and he then ate a piece.  He commented that he thought it had a hint of HRI flavor in it and loved the taste.  He liked it so much that he took the remaining pizza home with him to snack on later.  Now there's nothing left for me to snack on.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 03:48:03 PM by BTB »

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2008, 09:27:39 AM »
Though we don't live in the area anymore, this past summer my wife and I visited for the first time in years the sacred halls of the original Home Run Inn Pizzeria in Chicago.  The pizza was as great as ever (well almost) and it's no wonder that they are consistently named one of the best pizzas in Chicagoland year after year.  Here is a picture of the HRI pizza that we partially consumed on our visit there.

Offline loowaters

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2008, 10:05:45 PM »
The finished pie looks really good! 

That dough rise problem, as you've already identified, has to come from blooming the yeast in the salt water.  That looks really dry, too.  Your thought of adding to the hydration should help.  I bet that mix of mozzarella tasted good.  I've thinned the sauce with some water and I let it sit for a minute before topping and baking to get a little gummier texture just under the toppings but still very crispy on the bottom.

You're a stud, BTB, you'll get it.

Loo
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Offline zitomj

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2008, 05:11:52 PM »
HRI and ADY

 I was in Chicago a couple of months ago and ordered a HRI sausage pizza and your crust is right on...  I also think the 6:1 sauce if right there as well but I don't think they use a puree except on the frozen pizzas. I remember small pieces of tomatoes on my pizza at HRI. I thing they used crushed tomatoes with the spices as you recommended. I asked my wife and she also remembers the small pieces of tomato.

HRI Sausage
It tastes a little heavy on one spice from my visit to HRI a couple of months ago so I tried extra fennel seed but that wasn't right so I think now I my thinking is that extra oregano is added to a mild Italian sausage.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 08:36:58 PM by zitomj »

Offline bill1971

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2009, 04:06:43 PM »
Your pics looked great.  This does make for great cold leftovers and, I think I mentioned it above, it reheats really well.  I reheated by throwing the slices on a cookie sheet and into a cold oven and firing it up to 400*.  Once it hits temperature I gave it a couple more minutes and it came out just right.  I have an electric oven so this may not be the way to go with a gas oven but with the element underneath the leftovers crisped up on the bottom nicely and were excellent.

Loo

Hi, Loo - Just a newbie here enjoying your posts very much. Concerning reheating pizza, I am assuming that I can use a (good) half-sheet aluminum pan. Do you think that a silicone mat would be effective? Or detrimental? Thanks.

- Bill

Offline loowaters

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2009, 05:17:39 AM »
Hi, Loo - Just a newbie here enjoying your posts very much. Concerning reheating pizza, I am assuming that I can use a (good) half-sheet aluminum pan. Do you think that a silicone mat would be effective? Or detrimental? Thanks.

- Bill

I've never used my silicone mat when reheating leftovers but I can't believe it would be bad, cookies still get crisp when cooked on it.  Try it out and let us know how that works.  If it's not great you could always crisp up the bottom in a pan on the stove afterward.
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2009, 08:29:47 AM »
Bill,
Don't know if you saw the post somewhere but for a thin crust a Teflon pan on stove top works great.
By the way Loo and BTB  were a large inspiration and resource for me on the deep dish with semolina which turned out great.
I plan to try this HR Inn next for sure. It just jumped in front of the Chicago thin crust on the to do list  :) hopefully this weekend At least they are from the same town. Whats the major difference between the 2 being from NJ and never having the pleasure of trying either. Corn oil? Flakiness?
Thanks again guys!!
John
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 08:54:41 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline loowaters

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2009, 10:31:40 AM »
I plan to try this HR Inn next for sure. It just jumped in front of the Chicago thin crust on the to do list  :) hopefully this weekend At least they are from the same town. Whats the major difference between the 2 being from NJ and never having the pleasure of trying either. Corn oil? Flakiness?
Thanks again guys!!
John

The Home Run Inn is very similar with it's high oil content to the deep dish dough, it's just assembled and cooked in a traditional thin crust manner.  The Chicago thin, can be any number of different things;  some are very crackery others a little thicker (not much) and chewier but they're all topped quite close to the edge with toppings under the cheese.   Oh, and slice it up in square, party (or family, whichever you prefer to call it) cut style.
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2009, 07:26:36 PM »
Loo
Thanks for the info
I could not decide between you and BTB so to have no hard feeling I did both ;D
your HRI Final
and The BTB thin crust with all the oil and goodies iwas missing only 1 ...
I used ADY and have both balls in the fridge.
I never had a HRI but it looked so good i am trying it :chef:
I must say this HRI final is a lot easier than all those oils and ingredients BTB I hope I can taste it all
Will work out sauce tomo
Thanks Guys!!
JOhn
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2009, 10:41:32 AM »
Loo,BTB, Pete
Hope you are on-line today pre dinner, Could you all please advise the the few questions with regard to the HRI final formulation on page 1 of this thread.
The sauce for this HRI is more a puree than chunk right? I will use the immersion blender and ground 6 in 1 s with some goodies added.
Also I see no mention of par baking or docking any where on this thread?
I would assume dock it right?

Toppings go underneath cheese correct?

I only have a 10" cutter black cutter pan, and 2 - 9 inch X 1 1/2 Deep dish black buster.
I also have a 14" 2 inch high lighter gauge aluminum Pan not black but not silver some kinda none stick. That I used to par bake the DKM cracker crust I did. here they are below
Can I try a screen on this? Should I finish on brick or only if required?

I used the exact measurements on This HRI
As mentioned I have this and the Chicago thin by BTB  that final dough weighed out at 441g out with not the
400.79G per BTB. I am a little shakey on this one. I Dock and Parbake here but dont see your toppings count Guess I'll feel it out depending on the pans I use.
Quantity of cheese and sauce for the thin with semolina. Loo has  6 3/4 oz sauce and 10 oz cheese for the 14"right?
Based on your thickness factor .08 and .111 Is the thin crust meant to be thinner than the HRI ?
Thank you !!
John
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 11:09:10 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2009, 11:23:34 AM »
John,

Loo and BTB are the experts on the Home Run Inn style pizza but I believe the answers to most of your questions are found in the opening post and in Reply 2 in this thread. As I interpret Loo's instructions, the sauce goes down first, followed by the toppings, and then the cheese. Also, if docking were an integral part of making the crust, I believe that Loo would have mentioned it. Since he didn't, I would not dock the skin.

It sounds like the most useful pan you have for the HRI clone pizza is the 10" cutter pan. Based on the information provided by Loo in the opening post, the amount of dough you would need for that size pan is 3.14159 x 5 x 5 x 0.111 = 8.72 ounces. So, if you made the full amount of dough according to Loo's dough formulation, which I calculate to be 17.10 ounces, you should be able to make two pizzas slightly less than 10" in diameter. You might be able to use the other pans, in which case you will have to calculate how much dough to use for those pans, using the simple math expression given in the last sentence but using the corresponding radii of the other pans. I suspect that it is possible to use a screen, either alone or in conjunction with a preheated pizza stone, but you may have to dress the pizza quickly if you use a screen because the combination of 42% hydration and 24% corn oil may translate into a dough that is quite wet and likely to stick to the screen. I believe that it is because of the wetness of the HRI clone dough that Loo used a disk or pan instead of a peel and pizza stone.

Peter