Author Topic: Pie Pic's and Question  (Read 1344 times)

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parallei

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Pie Pic's and Question
« on: February 16, 2009, 04:04:01 PM »
Attached are pic's of yesterday evening's pies and the resident pizza hound.  One pie with tomato sauce, cheese and onion; the other a with a white sauce, ham and mushroom.  Pretty tasty.  Once again, I used JerryMac's recipe and let it go about 48 hours in the fridge.  I'd like to try a dough without the honey (or sugar) and a two to three day rise in the fridge.  What is a good yeast percentage for this approach?

Thanks for your help!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pie Pic's and Question
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 11:18:01 PM »
parralei,

Modifying an existing dough formulation to do a lot of different things can be quite problematic, mainly because of the treatment of sugar, both in the poolish-like preferment and in the final mix. Poolish-like preferments with a lot of yeast can be hard on sugar and deplete it, and omitting the sugar or honey in the final dough might result in insufficient residual sugar at the time of the bake to produce the desired degree of crust coloration.  To do what you want to do, I believe you will have to apportion the total amount of yeast between the poolish-like preferment and the final mix in such a manner as to result in adequate residual sugar at the time of the final bake to achieve the desired degree of crust coloration as well as a flavorful one because of the totality of the byproducts of fermentation that are produced during the prefermentation period and during the cold fermentation period. It is also quite possible that you will have to reduce that total amount of yeast and ascertain the required apportionment of the yeast between the poolish-like preferment and the final mix to produce the desired results. How to do this depends to a great degree on what schedule you want to follow. And, even then, it is not an easy thing to do. You may have to do a lot of experimenting.

Do you have a particular schedule in mind? That is, do you plan to use a 4-5 hour preferment, then complete the final mix and cold ferment the final dough?

Peter


parallei

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Re: Pie Pic's and Question
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 02:22:29 PM »
Peter:

Thanks for the response.  The time frame I have in mind is 36-48 hours in the fridge.  And yes, I’d like to stick with a preferment for four hours or so.  I think it does add a bit of flavor.  JerryMac came up with a wonderful recipe. 

JerryMac’s recipe has a yeast percentage of 1.35%.  Many of the Lehman Style recipes seem to be down in the 0.25% yeast range.  My JerryMac’s dough continues to rise rapidly in the fridge and by day two has started to fall back in on itself.  This hasn't caused a problem with the final product.  However, I’d like to see what happened if I slowed things down a bit.  I’m sure you’re right; I should just experiment a bit.  Let’s see: (1.35%+0.25%)/2 = 0.80%.  Seems like a place to start….

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pie Pic's and Question
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 03:17:39 PM »
parallei,

Not long ago, I discussed some of the issues involved in using a preferment and a cold fermentation combination, at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7776.msg66761/topicseen.html#msg66761. Ideally, in your case you want to get a good balance between what the preferment gives you in the way of potential taste components, as supplemented by the flavor-contributing byproducts of fermentation produced during the period of the cold fermentation, and residual sugar levels in the dough at the time of baking that will provide good finished crust coloration. However, as I see it, if you leave out the sugar or honey, or if you don't use diastatic malt instead, you may not get enough residual sugars at the time of baking to give you sufficient crust coloration.

The safest course to take without deconstructing and reconstructing JerryMac's recipe might be to reduce the total amount of yeast, for example, by half, and split the reduced amount of yeast between the poolish-like preferment and the final mix. That may reduce the flavor contributions of the preferment but allow the cold fermentation to make up the difference, or at least some of it. Another possibility is to leave the poolish-like preferment as is--to retain the present substantial levels of byproducts of fermentation--and use much less yeast in the final mix so that the cold fermentation can proceed without fear of the dough overfermenting while also building up more natural sugars as residual sugars at the time of the bake. However, in either option, I do not know what effect leaving out the sugar or honey will have on crust coloration.  I suspect that JerryMac used such high levels of honey to be sure that the finished crust would have good color, and to compensate for the effects that the aggressive poolish-like preferments has on sugar levels. Also, JerryMac was looking to save time in making the pizzas, not to extend the window of usability of the dough for several days.

Whatever you decide to do, I hope you will let us know what results you get.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pie Pic's and Question
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 03:54:42 PM »
parallei,

As an addendum to my last post, you might take a look at a version I made of JerryMac's recipe using a sponge preferment rather than a poolish-like preferment, at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814. You will see from that post that I used all of the yeast in the sponge preferment and none in the final mix. However, I kept the honey. Even then, to get the desired degree of coloration, I had to use a longer bake. It's not clear whether using diastatic malt would help but it would be an option to consider. I have some doubts, however, that using only diastatic malt and no honey would provide sufficient additional sugar to contribute meaningfully to crust coloration. See, also, the following thread that discusses the use of a poolish preferment but with no sugar or diastatic malt in the recipe, and note the crust coloration for the pizzas shown in that thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7327.msg63267.html#msg63267.

Peter

parallei

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Re: Pie Pic's and Question
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 04:05:19 PM »
Thanks Peter for the detailed information.  I'll take a look at the information and keep you potsed....

Paul


 

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