Author Topic: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?  (Read 2331 times)

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Offline TarHeelPizza

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Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« on: January 22, 2008, 05:32:13 PM »
I normally cold ferment for approx. 2 days.  Recently, I tried a three day period.   During the time I was bringing the dough up to room temp on the counter, large bubles developed on one of the dough balls.  Do I need to decrease yeast percent and increase salt percent for longer fermentation period? 

If not, WHAT went wrong and how should I best handle this if it happens again??


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 06:22:36 PM »
TarHeelPizza,

It would help to see your recipe and how you made and managed the dough, but generally speaking the longer the desired period of fermentation the less yeast you should use. Alternatively, you can take measures to lower the finished dough temperature at the time the dough goes into the refrigerator so that you slow down the fermentation process. I wouldn't increase the salt for a cold fermented dough. The Naples pizzaioli do use salt as a regulator of the fermentation process but that is for a room-temperature fermented dough. I wouldn't worry in your case.

Peter

Offline TarHeelPizza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 06:41:19 PM »
Flour (100%):    555.77 g  |  19.6 oz | 1.23 lbs
Water (61%):    339.02 g  |  11.96 oz | 0.75 lbs
IDY (.4%):    2.22 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    8.34 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.74 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
Oil (1%):    5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.39 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Total (164.9%):   916.47 g | 32.33 oz | 2.02 lbs | TF = 0.105
Single Ball:   458.24 g | 16.16 oz | 1.01 lbs

KA bread flour

Mix IDY into flour
Heated water to 100 deg and dissolved salt
Placed water mix into KA Classic bowl
Mixed flour into water mix on stir speed until clumpy
Rest 5 min
Add oil.
Run 5 min on speed 2
Rest 5
Run 7 min on speed 2

Placed on floured counter and kneeded for about 30 seconds or so.

Oiled into oiled plastic container in frig for approx three days.

Removed from frig, divided, shaped into round, flat ball
Floured surface and distributed flour on surface
Covered with plastic wrap a let warm for approx 2.5 hrs.



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 07:13:07 PM »
TarHeelPizza,

I don't see anything that you did that appears out of order except that you will have a better chance of making it out to three days if you use cooler water, either tap water or cold water right out of the refrigerator. That should get you a finished dough temperature that is low enough to slow down the fermentation process and, as a result, extend the useful life of the dough. As an alternative, you can reduce the amount of yeast, which should slow down the fermentation, but you may still have to adjust the water temperature to get the finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degrees F range. Whichever method you use, I suggest using a thermometer to take the temperature of the dough as it comes out of the mixer. That way, you will get a pretty good idea of what to do the next time you make the dough.

I notice that you divided the dough into two pieces after it came out of the refrigerator. I suggest that you do the division and shaping before refrigerating the dough. It is easier to do it then and avoids having to handle the dough balls later, which increases the risk of the dough balls becoming too elastic.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 09:36:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TarHeelPizza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 07:30:14 PM »
TarHeelPizza,

I don't see anything that you did that appears out of order except that you will have a better chance of making it out to three days if you use cooler water, either tap water or cold water right out of the refrigerator. That should get you a finished dough temperature that is low enough to slow down the fermentation process and, as a result, extend the useful life of the dough. As an alternative, you can reduce the amount of yeast, which should slow down the rate of fermentation, but you may still have to adjust the water temperature to get the finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degrees F range. Whichever method you use, I suggest using a thermometer to take the temperature of the dough as it comes out of the mixer. That way, you will get a pretty good idea of what to do the next time you make the dough.

I notice that you divided the dough into two pieces after it came out of the refrigerator. I suggest that you do the division and shaping before refrigerating the dough. It is easier to do it then and avoids having to handle the dough balls later, which increases the risk of the dough balls becoming too elastic.

Peter

Thanks for the response.  I'm not sure what happened.  I checked the temp before placing it into the frig and it was in the 70's. 

I'll reduce the yeast.  Based on your earlier post I see that the salt shouldn't be a issue.

Thanks for confirming that I should probably divide the dough before fermenting?

Could it be that my frig just didn't stay cold enough to retard fermentation?  We open the door A LOT!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 08:25:50 PM »
Could it be that my frig just didn't stay cold enough to retard fermentation?  We open the door A LOT!

TarHeelPizza,

Most standard home refrigerators run several degrees warmer than commercial coolers, which is why I mentioned the finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees rather than the 80-85 degrees F range typically recommended for professional pizza operators. I try to put my dough balls in the back of the refrigerator as far away from the door as possible, and I have also found that using lidded metal containers (like cookie tins) help keep the dough balls cooler. Filling the refrigerator with large numbers of items fresh from the supermarket or opening the refrigerator door too many times will have an obvious effect on the dough temperature (raising it). In cases like this, anything you can do to keep the dough balls cold will help extend their useful lives. On occasion, I have gone so far as to put the dough balls in the freezer for about a half hour before refrigerating (of course, you don't want to freeze the dough balls) and I have also pre-cooled the metal containers before putting the dough balls into them. The two dominant factors in dough life expectancy are yeast quantity and temperatures. Once you master these concepts, you will have few problems with your doughs.

Peter

Offline TarHeelPizza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 08:55:41 PM »
I'll try using cooler water next time.  I have a well and my tap water is VERY cold this time of year so I'll probably let it warm some before use.

I've found some round metal containers with lids that I'll use to refrigerate the dough balls.

I'm assuming that I can still use one of the dough balls after two days even if I use cooler water if I let the dough warm longer after removing it from the frig before creating the skin????


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 09:19:21 PM »
I'm assuming that I can still use one of the dough balls after two days even if I use cooler water if I let the dough warm longer after removing it from the frig before creating the skin????

TarHeelPizza,

You should be OK with the regimen you have in mind.

Peter

Offline Bryan S

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 10:51:19 PM »
I normally cold ferment for approx. 2 days.  Recently, I tried a three day period.   During the time I was bringing the dough up to room temp on the counter, large bubles developed on one of the dough balls. 
Just take the dough out of the fridge and make up your pie without the bring up to room temp step. I never let the dough warm up. I find it too limp and stretchy, like melted cheese, very hard to work with. JMO
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2008, 10:06:21 AM »
I often see members say to bring the dough up to room temperature when what they really mean to say is to bring the dough out to room temperature. Obviously, if your kitchen is at 85 degrees F in the summer, which is actually quite common in pizzerias in the summer, you don't want to get the dough balls to that temperature. Technically, dough can be shaped into skins at around 55-60 degrees F. However, each dough formulation is different. Some skins will be fine at that temperature but others will have a tendency to bubble. That is when pizza operators bring out their dough poppers, or simply leave the bubbles alone if their customers like a lot of bubbles in their pizza crusts. Tom Lehmann often suggests that one let dough balls warm up for about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. That is a broad enough range to cover the temperatures where pizza operators make and bake their pizzas throughout the year. In practice, some operators have discovered that they can skip that step without suffering any consequences, whereas others have found that they cannot do that without risking excessive bubbling. Tom Lehmann likes it when they follow his advice and let the dough balls warm up because it means he doesn't have to spend time to help them fix their problems when they ignore his advice.

Peter


Offline TarHeelPizza

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Re: Relationship between yeast, salt and cold fermentation period?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2008, 07:13:32 PM »
I often see members say to bring the dough up to room temperature when what they really mean to say is to bring the dough out to room temperature. Obviously, if your kitchen is at 85 degrees F in the summer, which is actually quite common in pizzerias in the summer, you don't want to get the dough balls to that temperature. Technically, dough can be shaped into skins at around 55-60 degrees F. However, each dough formulation is different. Some skins will be fine at that temperature but others will have a tendency to bubble. That is when pizza operators bring out their dough poppers, or simply leave the bubbles alone if their customers like a lot of bubbles in their pizza crusts. Tom Lehmann often suggests that one let dough balls warm up for about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. That is a broad enough range to cover the temperatures where pizza operators make and bake their pizzas throughout the year. In practice, some operators have discovered that they can skip that step without suffering any consequences, whereas others have found that they cannot do that without risking excessive bubbling. Tom Lehmann likes it when they follow his advice and let the dough balls warm up because it means he doesn't have to spend time to help them fix their problems when they ignore his advice.

Peter

Thanks for making that distinction.  I've basically been using a time period.  I'll put the instant thermomter to work. 


 

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