Author Topic: drastic changes in dough characteristics  (Read 2887 times)

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Offline fijidreamer

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drastic changes in dough characteristics
« on: January 13, 2008, 11:51:22 PM »
I know I can count on you all.  We put together a recipe hobbled from here and there for the dough we use at our restaurant.  At first I received a neo type dough with great air pockets for some crispy texture in the edges and a nice "chew" to the slice portion.  We use All Trumps (high protein) flour.  Water is about 50%, olive oil is 2.5% shortening is 1%, yeast (IDY) is 1.5%, sugar is 5%, salt is 1.5%, powdered milk is 1.5% and cornmeal is .5%
Normally the dough mixes for about 20 minutes, then rises for 30 minutes at 78 degrees (we make a 50 lb flour batch).  We then run it again for about 2 minutes before balling it up.  My problems is that in the last week, using the exact same ingredients, we are getting a very powerful alcohol smell after the quick rise.  The dough becomes bitter after just two or three hours, and forget proofing it overnight...the moisture released is dramatic and the dough qualities are horrible the next morning. We have too much elasticity, and after cooking (approx 600 degrees), we get a flat dough with little crispyness and a very quick browning.  These things all relate to the recipe I understand, but honestly, we ran fine for about 3 weeks with this same recipe...now we can't seem to get it right.  If the world was perfect, we would be finishing at night, allowing for hydration before adding yeast, and balling it up and putting it in a 38 degree cooler in self sealing dough ball containers, then pulling them out in am (about 10 hours later) for use that day.  Now, I can't even keep the dough around the same day.  Any ideas?  I am not begging for recipes as much as I am begging for help as to what may be causing the changes and then...ok, then I am needing help with the recipe! :-[
Thank you so much.  I have learned more than I could have ever imagined on this forum.  I appreciate your time and willingness to share.


Offline Randy

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Re: drastic changes in dough characteristics
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 09:24:39 AM »
I didn't see a water temperature and you said about 50% water.  Do you not measure the water?

Randy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: drastic changes in dough characteristics
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2008, 11:02:02 AM »
fijidreamer,

By way of background, can you tell us what style of pizza you are making and what pizza size(s) you are making and the corresponding dough ball weight(s)?

When a dough recipe that was working ceases to work, there has to be a cause. It can be something as simple as a bad batch of flour, switching from one type or brand of flour or yeast to another, changing the personnel who make the dough, a change in the procedures used to make the dough, a problem with the equipment used to prepare or manage the dough, or even seasonal variations. In your case, I would think back to when the problem first arose and what might have changed to produce the different results. I wouldn’t dismiss any potential cause without examining it closely.

Like Randy, I also wondered about the 50% hydration. The All Trumps flour that you are using has an absorption rate of around 63%. However, if you are making a crispy or cracker-style pizza, even one that has a tender crumb, 50% hydration would not be out of line. The 1.5% IDY is high for most doughs, even for short-term doughs that are to be made and used within a few hours (with room temperature fermentation), but even then it can work for a crispy or cracker-style dough where you want a lot of “yeast” flavor, and especially where you plan on using a roller or sheeter to roll out the dough and where getting a lot of volume is not a consideration.

However, if you are making a different style of pizza, using 1.5% IDY can be excessive, especially if accompanied by the use of water that is too warm and results in a finished dough temperature above 80-85 degrees F. Under those conditions, you can get that alcoholic smell. Have you been measuring the finished dough temperatures of your dough batches? If you have been experiencing a lot of water released from the dough, and the finished crust is too flat, that suggests overfermentation and the action of enzymes to break down the gluten structure and cause the release of water into the dough. Usually the dough is very extensible at this point rather than elastic but it can easily become elastic and develop tears if you try to rework the dough. With 5% sugar, plus added lactose sugar in the powdered milk, you might still get normal crust coloration even under those conditions.

Peter

Offline Bryan S

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Re: drastic changes in dough characteristics
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2008, 04:26:25 PM »
I'm wondering if you might have been using ADY for the previous dough and know have IDY. Strong alcohol smell means fermentation, lots of it in a short period of time, so I'd look at the yeast first. Then the flour, as Peter mentioned maybe a bad bag. I also agree in that 1.5% of yeast is quite a bit to be using.
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline fijidreamer

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Re: drastic changes in dough characteristics
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 11:39:19 PM »
We try to stay at about 80 degrees for the water.  I allow at least 10 degrees up but very rarely would have temps lower.  I will say that in our efforts to get this under control I have cut back on the powdered milk, and have decreased the olive oil by .5%.  I cut back on yeast to 1%, but we really were happy with the earthy, yeasty results with the original recipe.  One vendor suggested that sanitizer remained in the bowl or on the dough hook...I doubt that, the room is easily 80 degrees constantly and things dry very quickly.  I tried the same flour from another vendor with no luck, but earlier this week we had a breakthrough.  We cut the recipe in half, used a 25 lb bag of flour, did not allow the flour to sit with the water and we got a dough more closely resembling our original.  We will keep going to figure out the water release, but at least it is not turning bitter very quickly with the half batch.  I haven't had a chance to read through all of the suggestions, but I will and I will certainly let you know what w find out.  Thanks for the hydration information...we are fighting the dough stretching back to original size and I believe the additional water will help.  By the way, we do roll or sheet the dough, and yes, we have a very thin based pizza crust with rolled edges.  10 oz of dough makes a 14" pizza...and that allows for at least 3/4 of an inch extra so we can roll the edges.

Offline fijidreamer

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Re: drastic changes in dough characteristics
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 11:52:40 PM »
I forgot to mention that yes, we do measure the water.  The exact amount is 50% by weight.  That figure is accurate when using a 50 lb flour base (25 lbs), but when we make a smaller batch (25 lbs of flour) it is closer to being 50.5% by weight.  One variable is that we allow them to wash out the bowl with olive oil to get all of the oil in, and to help us keep the oil out of the sinks.  We have a very aggressive waste water/anti oil program in our county.  I figure they probably use the same amount to wash the bowl regardless of the batch size, thus the increase in water percent with smaller batches.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: drastic changes in dough characteristics
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2008, 07:50:51 AM »
fijidreamer,

Since you confirmed that you are making a thin crust pizza (I calculated a thickness factor of 0.065), and that you are rolling/sheeting out the dough, I don't see why you can't go back to 1.5% yeast since you are using the yeast more for taste than for dough expansion purposes. As for the dough elasticity problem, some pizza operators use PZ-44 or similar ingredient to reduce the "buckiness" of the dough, especially when high-gluten flour is used. An alternative would be to use a weaker flour with a less developed gluten structure.

One thing you did not mention is whether you have been measuring the finished dough temperature and, if so, what that temperature, or range of temperatures, is. If it is too high (along with a room temperature of 78 degrees F during the rest period), that can contribute to the creation of an alcoholic smelling dough. I don't know why you were getting bitterness in the dough after a few hours.  Is it possible that the oil and cornmeal aren't fresh and either may be interjecting some rancidity into your dough?

I was wondering whether you can clarify what you mean by this statement: One variable is that we allow them to wash out the bowl with olive oil to get all of the oil in, and to help us keep the oil out of the sinks.

Peter


 

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