leoparding

[Matthew]

I agree that the fresh moz in brine is too waterey to use.

It depends on the temps what you're baking & for how long. For me @ 950 degrees fresh fior di latte would be my only choice.

[Matthew]

It depends on the temps you're baking @ & for how long. For me @ 950 degrees fresh fior di latte would be my only choice.

[malvanova]

I'm tending to agree with you Matt  I recall baking the pizzas a little to long, because I wanted browning on the skins,  therefore longer bake and thorough  liquefying of the fresh mozz., but with 850-950 heat, quick bake, leoparding, and not totally melt down of fresh mozz. Hemmmm that adds up, will try it next time

[heliman]

Just trying to work out if leoparding may be associated with the flour (Molino caputo) itself ....

Has anyone created leoparding using flour that is NOT Molino Caputo?

Rossco

[widespreadpizza]

Heliman,  it has nothing to do with flour,  and can and has been done with many types of flour.  Both imported and domestic.  Earlier in this thread I have pictures of the effect using domestic organic bread flour.  -marc

[heliman]

OK thanks Marc - I have read the thread ... but was there a final conclusion/summary on the actual cases of this phenomenon?

I am really keen to create this effect, but my pizzas always come out a uniform brown colour with no hint of leoparding.

Thanks

Rossco

Heliman,  it has nothing to do with flour,  and can and has been done with many types of flour.  Both imported and domestic.  Earlier in this thread I have pictures of the effect using domestic organic bread flour.  -marc

[andreguidon]

OK, VPN pizzaiolo Giulio Adriani (we are having classes here in Brazil), said that leoparding happens cause of humidity in the dough, wen the dough is really fermented there are allot of air pockets, and inside the air pockets - humidity, wen pizza goes inside a really hot oven the thin layer of skin dough holdind the air burns burst cause of the hot water (humidity)... the more humidity in the dough the more leoparding you have, VPN says that the only like really small spots that don't burst.....

[Matthew]

OK, VPN pizzaiolo Giulio Adriani (we are having classes here in Brazil), said that leoparding happens cause of humidity in the dough, wen the dough is really fermented there are allot of air pockets, and inside the air pockets - humidity, wen pizza goes inside a really hot oven the thin layer of skin dough holdind the air burns burst cause of the hot water (humidity)... the more humidity in the dough the more leoparding you have, VPN says that the only like really small spots that don't burst.....

Rossco,
I may have missed this, but what type of oven & temperatures are you using?

Matt

[heliman]

Just rescaled this recipe to make 4 x 270g pizzas and get the following forumla:

Flour   664.5   100.0%
Water   398.7   60.0%
Yeast   1.5   0.2%
Salt   15.3   2.3%

The batch is being prepared right this moment but one thing that does concern me is the miniscule amount of Fresh yeast that is called for - only 1.5 grams!!! The mix seems to watery so I have had to add flour to get it firmer. Using flour with about a 10% protein content. I will continue following the recipe but don't think will have a happy ending for me...

On with the experiment...

Rossco

I'm using Molino Spadoni "00" PZ2 flour...and my typical batch is:
5 kilos flour
3 liters water
115g sea salt
11g cake yeast

1/2 the flour in, mix 5 mins, autolyse 20 mins, mix 12 mins, rest 1 hr, ball up and in the fridge...265g dough balls.

[heliman]

Hi Matt - temp in the WFO have been around 800 - 900 F.

Rossco

Rossco,
I may have missed this, but what type of oven & temperatures are you using?

Matt

[Matthew]

Picture 1- 24 hour dough fermentented @ 72 degrees
Picture 2-72 hour dough (18 hours @ 72 degrees, 48 hours in fridge, 6 hours @ room temperature)

Both doughs were made with the exact same formula & both baked at around 900-950 degrees.

[heliman]

Those look superb Matt - some of the best I have seen!!!

Back to my experiment (below) ... I have checked my dough and stretched a pice and it just falls apart so it looks like it is heading for the bin. Still concerned about the small amount of fresh yeast requires.

Can you provide your recipe formula for a comparison?

Rossco

[Matthew]

Those look superb Matt - some of the best I have seen!!!

Back to my experiment (below) ... I have checked my dough and stretched a pice and it just falls apart so it looks like it is heading for the bin. Still concerned about the small amount of fresh yeast requires.

Can you provide your recipe formula for a comparison?

Rossco

Thanks Rossco,
I use a natural starter for my dough, so I'm not sure that my formula would help you.  I'm not sure that the yeast is the problem.  Take me through your process.

Matt

[heliman]

Flour   664.5   100.0%
Water   398.7   60.0%
Yeast   1.5   0.2%
Salt   15.3   2.3%


1/2 the flour in, mix 5 mins, autolyse 20 mins, mix 12 mins, rest 1 hr, ball up and in the fridge...270g dough balls. Note - fresh yeast used.

Water, salt yeast added to bowl first, then as per the above.

That high temp you are using sounds like a furnace!!! Even when I have used around 800 F the flour on the pizza base actually burns!! How do you prevent that from happening at 900 - 950???

Rossco

[Matthew]

Flour   664.5   100.0%
Water   398.7   60.0%
Yeast   1.5   0.2%
Salt   15.3   2.3%


1/2 the flour in, mix 5 mins, autolyse 20 mins, mix 12 mins, rest 1 hr, ball up and in the fridge...270g dough balls. Note - fresh yeast used.

Water, salt yeast added to bowl first, then as per the above.

That high temp you are using sounds like a furnace!!! Even when I have used around 800 F the flour on the pizza base actually burns!! How do you prevent that from happening at 900 - 950???

Rossco

What type of mixer are you using?  You should not combine the yeast & the salt at the same time, especially fresh yeast.  Instead, dissolve your yeast in the water add your flour & add the salt after the autolyse.

I use the "stretch & flip" method to form my pizza.  Most of the bench flour is gone by the time I'm done stretching so this is not a problem for me.  I work with a dough that is @ 58% hydration so I don't need to use alot of bench flour to start off with.  I form the pizza on my outdoor granite counter & then slide it on a wood peel.  The picture below is a pizza folded "al libretto" the traditional way of eating Neapolitan pizza.

[heliman]

Flour is mix of 00 and 0 Italian pizza flour - average about 10% protein.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6214.msg82895.html#msg82895

The above is the reference point I am using...

Rossco

[Matthew]

Flour is mix of 00 and 0 Italian pizza flour - average about 10% protein.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6214.msg82895.html#msg82895

The above is the reference point I am using...

Rossco

Jay can confirm this, but I believe that he uses a spiral mixer which is significantly more gentle on the dough than a planetary mixer.  I'm assuming that you are using a Planetary mixer, if I'm wrong, please correct me.  Planetary mixers can be a little harsh on 00 flour & can cause the dough to overheat quite quickly.  In my opinion, a 12 minute mix with a KA mixer for the batch that you are making is far too long.  You have probably noticed your dough going from a ball to a batter at some point in your mixing stage.  That means that your dough has overheated.  My recommendation is to knead your dough by hand or if you want to use your mixer; mix for a couple of minutes after the autolyse & finish your dough by hand.  I use a mixer that is extremely gentle & always finish off with a quick hand knead which makes the world of difference.

[heliman]

Yes, I'm using the basic KA with a C hook. My observations were that the dough never actually built up any strength at any time during the kneading process. BTW what about the minute amount of fresh yeast used?? What about burning at high termps?

[Matthew]

Yes, I'm using the basic KA with a C hook. My observations were that the dough never actually built up any strength at any time during the kneading process. BTW what about the minute amount of fresh yeast used??

The amount of yeast used is relative to your environment & fermentation time.  Jay Jerrier is in Dallas, so the amount of yeast that he uses would be different than what I would use in Toronto,Ontario.  I have never used fresh yeast so I may not be the best person to answer your question.  I can say with confidence that I have used IDY in emergency situations & apart from the flavor I have achieved very similar results to my starter made dough.  Most recipes that I have seen using fresh yeast call for very little.

Matt

[Pete-zza]

BTW what about the minute amount of fresh yeast used??

Rossco,

There is a basic Neapolitan dough recipe for a dough to be fermented at room temperature at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915/topicseen.html#msg12915. I don't recall the specific fermentation periods (one in bulk and a second one after division) for that recipe but you will note that 2.5 grams of fresh yeast for 1650 grams of Caputo Pizzeria flour comes to 0.152% fresh yeast. That is less than the 0.20% you are using. However, there are many other factors besides yeast quantity that you have to take into consideration, including the ambient temperature at which the dough is to ferment. According to pizzanapoletana (Marco), the ideal fermentation temperature is 18-20 degrees C (64.4-68 degrees F). Also, different flours, including different 00 flours, have different fermentation tolerances. See, for example, Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545. There are also other variables that can be controlled, including the salt content, the hydration, and water temperature. It is the skill of the pizzaiolo to control these variables that makes them so highly regarded and revered.

Sometime you might want to read all or most of pizzanapoletana's posts. That will take some time but I have done it on several occasions and I learn something new everytime I do it.

Peter