Author Topic: leoparding  (Read 21606 times)

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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2008, 09:50:17 PM »
Marco,  your response here made me realize you were talking about the cheese here and not my pizza as a whole.  I take your closing statement here with great pride as i never thought that I would deserve such a compliment from you,  or anyone else for that matter.  I held off on responding for a little bit and just enjoyed the moment. (read a couple days)   Certainly I know that there are others out there doing their thing as well as they have been doing it for some time,  just no longer posting many results.   Anyhow,  after thinking it over and wondering what to do next,  I am wondering what defects I have left in the apperance of my crusts.  I ask this because I know you see some.  At the same time i ask,  I am not asking you to tell me how to correct them, just identify.  I will soon go back to my caputo and see what I can achieve with that flour.  Will they ever begin to produce an organic flour?  Two final questions.  what is your ideal bake time?  and does it matter which side of your dough ball, top or bottom, hits the oven floor?  thanks-marc


Offline scott r

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2008, 12:26:19 AM »
I love aged cheese too, and of course it matters (in varying degrees depending on your proofing box humidity)!    Way to go widespread........Sorry to interrupt.

Offline fabio

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2008, 04:07:58 AM »
Marc,

I'm actually really surprised that no one mentioned this earlier, but using a natural yeast -- such as camaldoli -- instead of commercial "brewers" yeast will probably have a huge effect on leoparding. It sounds like you have much more experience than me and yet I get leopard spots on my pizze on a consistent basis, without trying much. From the parameters you gave, sounds like the yeast is the only difference compared to my dough. Its also interesting to note that BillSFNM and Marco use natural yeast as well, and they seam to have no problem with leopard-spotting.

Hope that helps and buone pizze.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2008, 09:22:21 AM »
Fabio,  that is the thing i forgot to mention,  I have had the italian cultures from marco/sourdough int for the last 2 years and something caused them to go south on me,  me I am sure. One about a year ago,the camoldi, and then the island.  I thought I had a viable backup for that one but I didn't.  So I had been using them with very good success,  and may be reordering them.  In the meantime, I still have my carls oregon trail starter,  and will bust that out of the fridge and see if I can get him ready for the weekend.  Anyhow,  I have also been planning on trying to capture a native yeast this spring.  Thanks for the reminder on the starters.
Scott, could you explain exactly what you mean about the proofing box humidity level?  thanks -marc

Offline scott r

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2008, 10:24:55 AM »
Well, I would love to hear marco's take, but what I am getting at is this.  If you were to put your dough in a sealed plastic container you wouldn't notice as much of a difference as if you used a large plastic dough box with some small holes in it (as is common practice in many better pizzerias), or even an old school wooden dough box. 

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2008, 12:24:40 PM »
Marc,

I'm actually really surprised that no one mentioned this earlier, but using a natural yeast -- such as camaldoli -- instead of commercial "brewers" yeast will probably have a huge effect on leoparding. It sounds like you have much more experience than me and yet I get leopard spots on my pizze on a consistent basis, without trying much. From the parameters you gave, sounds like the yeast is the only difference compared to my dough. Its also interesting to note that BillSFNM and Marco use natural yeast as well, and they seam to have no problem with leopard-spotting.

Hope that helps and buone pizze.

This is as much I am ready to say:

A Starter may impact on the colour but the leapording is obtain by a combination of factors that are independednt from the starter (llok at the many pizza in Naples made without starters.

Ciao

Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2009, 05:23:33 PM »
I know this thread is a little old but I just want to share my experience regarding this subject. I hope it will help others.

I'm attaching 2 pizza images of the same composition.

As you can see, the first one has an over all darker crust with few spots. This was a result of baking the pie at around 750 degrees and waiting for the spots to appear, it took around 120 seconds. Obviously while few spots did appear, it gave the pie lots of time to develop a darker colored crust. Actually the spots appeared fairly at the end of the bake time.

The second pie was baked at 800+. The spots appeared around the first 20 seconds and started darkening until charred by the end of the bake time. It took 70 seconds. As you can see, the rest of the crust remained much lighter in color.

Regarding the spots size, I believe they will vary mainly with the strength of the dough at the time of bake. It might have to do with how weak or strong the dough is in trapping the air inside it while high heat is causing a rapid oven-rise effect.

Thanks guys, your ideas helped a lot and I think high heat is the main key here.

Offline artigiano

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2009, 12:26:48 AM »
I think Sooda hit it bang on. 

Offline andreguidon

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2009, 08:25:17 AM »
what kind of flour ?

because Ive tried two different kind... and only the Italian flour X AP had leoparding.... both baked at 850F....
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Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2009, 12:42:32 PM »
Here's my 2 cents.
I've been making pies for over 1 year and I caught this thread on leoparding a few weeks back.
Low and behold, my last 2 batches showed exactly the leoparding in the pics.
It's not the heat, because I have cooked a variety of doughs , the heat would be a constant....same oven, same preheating until the dome is white..same 60 second pizza's.
I've used caputo with a 66 % hydration, and the same yeast and same kneading.
What I varied in my 2 batches was the fermentation time .
I went from 24 hour cold to 48 hour cold and then froze the dough balls.
My money is on the fermantation.

Offline JConk007

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2009, 12:58:34 PM »
I am on board with that, I am thinking the fermentation time is the trick here also, Most of the 2 stone/LBE  guys (who's pies look completely amazing BTW) do use a very high heat that comes up around the edge of kettle so those results I would think are different from my 800 degree all around and more by fire woodfired oven right? Also did you all just read Pete's post on the 12 Day dough that got some blisters?
Interesting  ???
anyway leoparding is pretty cool and I try for that  look outside.
John
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Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2009, 03:40:25 PM »
andreguidon, I'm using 50:50 bread flour:AP flour.

pizzaboyfan, in another thread, Pete stated that an increase in fermentation time reduces the amount of sugar in the dough. Thus resulting in less browning in the final crust. This I believe will give more contrast between the spots and the rest of the crust and achieving the leoparding effect. I haven't tried to bake a 24 hour retarded dough but according to you and Pete, it should produce less leoparding effect but I cannot judge to what extent as I need to try that myself.

It seems that almost all images I've seen for Neapolitan pizzas coming from a commercial setting have leoparding effect where the dough is made the same day it's baked. Would that mean that the shorter time room temperature dough rise consumes as much sugar as if it was cold fermented for 48 hours?

JConk007, the oven I use is pretty different so I will speak out of my observations. One of Bill/SFNM's posts showed this video where I can see that the leoparding is occurring at the coal side of the oven where it could hotter than the air directly above of the pie. (needs confirmation from woodfired oven users). I believe this is the reason why I see some woodfired oven users finish-up they pie by raising it up toward the dome, to get a more uniform leoparding effect by charring the top of the pie. For 2 stone, I can see something similar in this video where the resulting pie at the end was undercooked from the top and had leoparding only on the sides which was due to the high heat at the edges.

I'm not an expert on the subject but these are things I observed and experienced throughout my learning process on this forum.

s00da

Offline JConk007

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2009, 03:47:48 PM »
sOOda,
I am on board with that. I think that shorter warmer would be the case . you are Absolutely correct the fire side cooks quickest hence the 1 or 2 spins every 20-30 sec. is a must or you  will be eating only a 1/2 of a pie. I have recently started lifting up to dome to finish as I caught that on some video somewhere, works great.
JOhn
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 09:17:15 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2009, 06:37:06 PM »
Saad,

I don't have a very high temperature oven so I can't speak to the matter of leoparding, but as pizzanapoletana (Marco) mentioned at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1261.msg11336/topicseen.html#msg11336, enzymes work better at room temperature. Also, yeast works better at room temperature. So the combination of enzymes and yeast in a room temperature dough fermentation setting will produce results in a shorter period of time than it would take in a cold fermentation setting. I discovered this phenomenon myself when I attempted to make a 20-24 hour room temperature fermented dough using commercial yeast (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332/topicseen.html#msg62332). To get the equivalent results in a cold fermentation environment would have taken several days. If yeast and enzymes work faster at room temperature, the risk of sugar depletion may increase although I didn't see a noticeable lack of crust coloration when I made the pizzas from the 20-24 hour room temperature dough.

Successful long room temperature fermented doughs usually use a small amount of yeast (natural starter or commercial yeast) so the sugars that are released during the room temperature fermentation to feed the yeast are not all used by the yeast, leaving more residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. In my case, I used a bit more than half of a 1/64 teaspoon of yeast (IDY), in the context of a room temperature setting of around 80-82 degrees F. If I had used more yeast and a shorter fermentation time, say, 8-10 hours, a lack of sufficient residual sugar might have been a problem because of less sugar in the dough because of reduced enzyme performance (it takes several hours to release natural sugar from the dough) and the greater nutritional need for sugar of the yeast. How this all plays out in a very high temperature oven as opposed to my standard kitchen oven in relation to leoparding is something I have not had to consider. The other members with the high temperature ovens should be able to better speak to the issue of residual sugar and its effect, if any, on leoparding.

Peter

Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2009, 02:07:28 AM »
Pete,

I believe then that the best way to compare the effect of different fermentation period on leoparding effect is by baking a 24 hours cold fermented dough and see how different the results are from my usual 72 hours fermented dough. In terms of leoparding that is.

I shall post again my findings here.

s00da

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2009, 02:32:33 AM »
One of Bill/SFNM's posts showed this video where I can see that the leoparding is occurring at the coal side of the oven where it could hotter than the air directly above of the pie. (needs confirmation from woodfired oven users). I believe this is the reason why I see some woodfired oven users finish-up they pie by raising it up toward the dome, to get a more uniform leoparding effect by charring the top of the pie.

That movie was originally shot in high-definition (1080i) and, in that version, I can see the first spots forming everywhere, even on the "shady" side of the pie. I raise the pie up to the dome just to give the toppings a quick blast to make sure they are fully cooked.

Bill/SFNM
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Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2009, 01:21:00 PM »
marc,

I mean ingredients, time and temp of fermentation, etc.

I use sealed containers for fermenting and proofing (with just a little pinhole in the lid to allow excess gas to escape). Never seen condensation in the container, but I live in a very dry climate.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but I would not get too hung up on the visuals like leoparding. Among the best pies I have ever made are ones with very little leoparding and some of the worst have had very nice leoparding. It is very easy to overcook a pie waiting for the spots to develop. Not sure if you can see it in my video but the spots begin forming very early and nearest the fire.

Bill/SFNM




I was referring to the above quoted post but it seems that your baking results are changing since spots are forming for you everywhere on the pie.

Saad


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2009, 01:40:17 PM »
I was referring to the above quoted post but it seems that your baking results are changing since spots are forming for you everywhere on the pie.

Saad

Not sure the reason for the contradiction. I'll be sure to take a video of tomorrow's bake. I can post high-def on Vimeo so others can see in detail what is happening.

Bill/SFNM
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Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2009, 01:51:29 PM »
Would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the trouble  :-[

s00da

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2009, 01:55:17 PM »
Would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the trouble  :-[

s00da
It's no trouble. It's just been pretty cold out. I tried to take movie last week and the camera just did not want to start recording. I'm reluctant to move it closer to the oven because I once destroyed a still camera when trying a get a close-up. Should be warmer tomorrow.

Bill/SFNM
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2009, 12:09:33 PM »
I was able to get 2 HD videos of yesterday's bake. Having all kinds of problems getting them up to Vimeo (anyone who knows compression settings that actually work, please PM me).

Pretty hard to make conclusions since camera has only one angle and I'm frequently turning. A "pizzacam" in the dome would be very useful! Best I can see, spots are popping up everywhere, but are most pronounced closest to the coals.

I plan to play around today with getting at least one of the videos up to Vimeo because I need to be able to do this for another project.

Bill/SFNM
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2009, 08:41:08 AM »
Still need to play around the settings (what a pain!), but here is an HD video that shows one of the pies baking. You should only try to view this if you have a high-speed connection - it's 27MB. Expand to full-screen for full effect.



Bill/SFNM
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Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2009, 03:05:10 PM »
Bill,

I can see how fast that is baking...really nice. I think you will eventually get leoparding since you bake at high heat but the effect seems to accelerate where the heat is higher. It makes sense; faster bake time = faster darkening of the blisters

From my side I have two other things to confirm:
1- In one of my previous posts I assumed that the weaker the flour, the more leoparding. andreguidon also noted that he only got leoparding with using "Italian flour X AP".
2- pizzaboyfan and JConk007 were also betting on fermentation time.

Both hold true; I made dough using AP flour only to further weaken my original dough that used 50:50 bread:AP flour. My usual fermentation is 72 hours so I tried baking some pies at 24 hours and it produced absolutely no leoparding! So I guess this confirms pizzaboyfan and JConk007. From the same dough I baked more pies after 72 hours fermentation to compare leoparding of the weaker flour and it produced a much more pronounced leoparding effect. The contrast was something really amazing. Look at the images, the first one used 50:50 bread:AP flour while the second one used AP flour only.

I think leoparding is all about (long fermentation + weak flour). Of course only in high heat baking.

s00da

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2009, 03:50:55 PM »
I'm in agreement with you, it's all about the fermenting,and the breakdown of the dough.
Caputo dough, 24 hours in the fridge...no leoparding
Caputo  48 hours...spots galore
Caputo 72 hours...not useable

Offline JConk007

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2009, 04:34:34 PM »
sOOda,
Wow, 1st off as a rookie I am pleased to be mentioned in your reply. I do think you have it.
When I started with my WFO only last year I was using premade frozen dough. I know shame on me but I have not purchased a dough ball, of any form, for at least 6 months. Anyway In the early stages I was also using KA bread flour when I was doing pizza party pies. With good results but 0 leoparding. Then I found this place.The fab forum. At the time I did not know what Caputo or Leoparding was 6 months ago but now?? I am catching on quickly. ( thanks everyone)  So by the end of the WFO season I was using only Caputo, Hand Crushed DOP SanMarzano, Spring water and Yeast. at 800+ degrees I was nervous about that too in the beginning. You know the standard VPN rules. I took the dough to 48 hrs on occasion and.... well I got the leoparding / blisters we have been going on for 3 pages about  ;D
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BTW Sooda your pies look amazing!!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 04:37:08 PM by JConk007 »
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