Author Topic: leoparding  (Read 20213 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2009, 02:32:33 AM »
One of Bill/SFNM's posts showed this video where I can see that the leoparding is occurring at the coal side of the oven where it could hotter than the air directly above of the pie. (needs confirmation from woodfired oven users). I believe this is the reason why I see some woodfired oven users finish-up they pie by raising it up toward the dome, to get a more uniform leoparding effect by charring the top of the pie.

That movie was originally shot in high-definition (1080i) and, in that version, I can see the first spots forming everywhere, even on the "shady" side of the pie. I raise the pie up to the dome just to give the toppings a quick blast to make sure they are fully cooked.

Bill/SFNM


Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2009, 01:21:00 PM »
marc,

I mean ingredients, time and temp of fermentation, etc.

I use sealed containers for fermenting and proofing (with just a little pinhole in the lid to allow excess gas to escape). Never seen condensation in the container, but I live in a very dry climate.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but I would not get too hung up on the visuals like leoparding. Among the best pies I have ever made are ones with very little leoparding and some of the worst have had very nice leoparding. It is very easy to overcook a pie waiting for the spots to develop. Not sure if you can see it in my video but the spots begin forming very early and nearest the fire.

Bill/SFNM




I was referring to the above quoted post but it seems that your baking results are changing since spots are forming for you everywhere on the pie.

Saad

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2009, 01:40:17 PM »
I was referring to the above quoted post but it seems that your baking results are changing since spots are forming for you everywhere on the pie.

Saad

Not sure the reason for the contradiction. I'll be sure to take a video of tomorrow's bake. I can post high-def on Vimeo so others can see in detail what is happening.

Bill/SFNM

Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2009, 01:51:29 PM »
Would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the trouble  :-[

s00da

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2009, 01:55:17 PM »
Would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the trouble  :-[

s00da
It's no trouble. It's just been pretty cold out. I tried to take movie last week and the camera just did not want to start recording. I'm reluctant to move it closer to the oven because I once destroyed a still camera when trying a get a close-up. Should be warmer tomorrow.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2009, 12:09:33 PM »
I was able to get 2 HD videos of yesterday's bake. Having all kinds of problems getting them up to Vimeo (anyone who knows compression settings that actually work, please PM me).

Pretty hard to make conclusions since camera has only one angle and I'm frequently turning. A "pizzacam" in the dome would be very useful! Best I can see, spots are popping up everywhere, but are most pronounced closest to the coals.

I plan to play around today with getting at least one of the videos up to Vimeo because I need to be able to do this for another project.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2009, 08:41:08 AM »
Still need to play around the settings (what a pain!), but here is an HD video that shows one of the pies baking. You should only try to view this if you have a high-speed connection - it's 27MB. Expand to full-screen for full effect.



Bill/SFNM

Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2009, 03:05:10 PM »
Bill,

I can see how fast that is baking...really nice. I think you will eventually get leoparding since you bake at high heat but the effect seems to accelerate where the heat is higher. It makes sense; faster bake time = faster darkening of the blisters

From my side I have two other things to confirm:
1- In one of my previous posts I assumed that the weaker the flour, the more leoparding. andreguidon also noted that he only got leoparding with using "Italian flour X AP".
2- pizzaboyfan and JConk007 were also betting on fermentation time.

Both hold true; I made dough using AP flour only to further weaken my original dough that used 50:50 bread:AP flour. My usual fermentation is 72 hours so I tried baking some pies at 24 hours and it produced absolutely no leoparding! So I guess this confirms pizzaboyfan and JConk007. From the same dough I baked more pies after 72 hours fermentation to compare leoparding of the weaker flour and it produced a much more pronounced leoparding effect. The contrast was something really amazing. Look at the images, the first one used 50:50 bread:AP flour while the second one used AP flour only.

I think leoparding is all about (long fermentation + weak flour). Of course only in high heat baking.

s00da

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2009, 03:50:55 PM »
I'm in agreement with you, it's all about the fermenting,and the breakdown of the dough.
Caputo dough, 24 hours in the fridge...no leoparding
Caputo  48 hours...spots galore
Caputo 72 hours...not useable

Offline JConk007

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2009, 04:34:34 PM »
sOOda,
Wow, 1st off as a rookie I am pleased to be mentioned in your reply. I do think you have it.
When I started with my WFO only last year I was using premade frozen dough. I know shame on me but I have not purchased a dough ball, of any form, for at least 6 months. Anyway In the early stages I was also using KA bread flour when I was doing pizza party pies. With good results but 0 leoparding. Then I found this place.The fab forum. At the time I did not know what Caputo or Leoparding was 6 months ago but now?? I am catching on quickly. ( thanks everyone)  So by the end of the WFO season I was using only Caputo, Hand Crushed DOP SanMarzano, Spring water and Yeast. at 800+ degrees I was nervous about that too in the beginning. You know the standard VPN rules. I took the dough to 48 hrs on occasion and.... well I got the leoparding / blisters we have been going on for 3 pages about  ;D
Thats my 1 / 50th of a dollar.                          That comes to 2 cents in the good ole  US of A (at least for now)

BTW Sooda your pies look amazing!!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 04:37:08 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline JimmyMak

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2009, 06:49:14 PM »
How can we explain leoparding in same day doughs with caputo & warm rise. I don't have consistant results, but then I need to document my findings better. I believe hydration is also a big factor. I'll keep reading & learning  Thanks everyone !!!

Offline s00da

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2009, 12:45:00 AM »
Thanks for the compliment JConk007. I hope I'm capturing flavor also...only a trip to Naples would confirm it though  :P

JimmyMak, I have not tried a same day dough with warm rise but I believe the reason behind your inconsistent results is the varying temperature where you leave the dough to ferment from bake to bake. Assuming everything else is constant. The higher the temperature, the more fermentation; thus resulting in more leoparding. Of course the lower the temperature, the less you get. I would start on making the temperature consistent and go from there.

s00da

Offline andreguidon

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2009, 06:21:45 AM »
my dough is always room temp rise.... i did a couple of fridge doughs.... but mostly room temp.... i find that the less starter a put in the dough and the longer the fermentation and rise is the better the leoparding is... and the leoparding was better with the italian flour.... but ive got some spots with the AP (Brazilian) too...
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Offline Fingerstyle

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2009, 02:11:56 PM »
Still need to play around the settings (what a pain!), but here is an HD video that shows one of the pies baking. You should only try to view this if you have a high-speed connection - it's 27MB. Expand to full-screen for full effect.



Bill/SFNM

Nice one Bill! Poetry in motion. Re original post, I get good leoparding mostly on older doughs.
"... I say we ride some gravity." - Patrick Rizzo

Offline scpizza

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2009, 11:08:51 AM »
I ran across an interesting explanation for blistering on bread which I assume is akin to leoparding on Neapolitan pizza.

The assertion is that blisters are caused by the exterior dough cells losing gas faster than it is generated.  Many collapse except for scattered ones which then accumulate water from the crust when baked to generate the blister.

This explanation is consistent with the observations that only well-fermented doughs leopard as those doughs would be generating less gas and their cell walls would be weakening.

Offline jjerrier2450

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2009, 10:15:56 AM »
With the cooler weather in Dallas now, I have been having a great time making dough - and getting some great leoparding.  Of course I have no pictures...but will take some at our next event.  Temperature seems to be the biggest factor for me achieving normal or ridonkulous leoparding.  I get good spots with 24 hr cold ferment, great spots with 48 hr cold ferment, and I've even stretched the fermenting process up to 5 days or so.  Usually after an event I will have some left over dough balls.  The next day I will take them out and re-ball them and put them back in the fridge for several days - they've been great...lots of spots, very light, good flavor.  I could never pull this off in the Dallas summer.

I'm using Molino Spadoni "00" PZ2 flour...and my typical batch is:
5 kilos flour
3 liters water
115g sea salt
11g cake yeast

1/2 the flour in, mix 5 mins, autolyse 20 mins, mix 12 mins, rest 1 hr, ball up and in the fridge...265g dough balls.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2009, 10:28:31 AM »
Jay,

When do the salt and yeast go into the mix? Before or after the autolyse?

Peter
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 10:40:01 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline jjerrier2450

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2009, 10:37:18 AM »
Water goes in first, then salt goes in...mixed with a whisk to dissolve, then fresh yeast gets crumbled in...mixed with a whisk to dissolve, then half the flour and mix til it looks like pancake batter...then autolyse...then the rest of the flour.  windowpaning is incredible too.

No lag team between salt and yeast...just one after the other.  That's the way they showed me how to make it at Antica...

Here is a picture from the summer of me stretching a 9 oz dougball just to see how thin I could get it...

Jay

Offline Mo

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2009, 12:40:46 PM »
Water goes in first, then salt goes in...mixed with a whisk to dissolve, then fresh yeast gets crumbled in...mixed with a whisk to dissolve, then half the flour and mix til it looks like pancake batter...then autolyse...then the rest of the flour.  windowpaning is incredible too.

No lag team between salt and yeast...just one after the other.  That's the way they showed me how to make it at Antica...

Here is a picture from the summer of me stretching a 9 oz dougball just to see how thin I could get it...

Jay

Isn't autolyse suppose to be just flour and water?

Offline jjerrier2450

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Re: leoparding
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2009, 12:58:12 PM »
maybe...i have no clue.  results are awesome this way though.  I will give it a try the other way to see if there is a difference.


 

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