My latest NY

[Giovanni]

(http://status.newtechwebservices.com/pics/DCP_0003b.jpg)

Stanislaus Full Red sauce + Grande Cheese = Perfection!

This is by far the best tasting pizza i have ever made, now if i could just get my hands on some of that Ezzo pepperoni i would be in pizza heaven!

[Steve]

Did you use the Full Red straight from the can, or did you add some seasonings? Did you have to dilute the Full Red with water? What did you use for flour? KASL?

[Giovanni]

I thought i would be able to use it right from the can but it was WAY thicker than i thought it would be. It was almost a paste and the basil is a bit misleading. There are actually just full basil leaves in the can. I think i found 3 total as i was portioning the rest of the can for freezing. For my sauce i took 11 oz and mixed in 1/3 cup water along with sugar, basil, oregeno, salt, olive oil, thyme, garlic powder, and lemon juice. This creates enough sauce for 2-3 pizzas. I like a sweet and tangy sauce but i could still taste the full tomato flavor. Actually i tasted this stuff right out of the can it was very good, better than 6 in 1 in my opinion and it could probably be used without any seasonings. I used KASL for the flour and cooked on a 16 inch screen at 520 degrees for 7 minutes. I actually used 3 types of cheese on this pizza. One section was all part skim grande, the other all whole milk grande and the other was a 50/50 mix. I found that the whole milk bubbled and browned quicker than the others. The 50/50 resisted heat the best and had the best texture. For flavor i would have to go with the whole milk.

[Pete-zza]

Giovanni,

I would like to commend you for the nice job you did in detailing the procedures you followed to make your latest NY style pizza.  As I read you description, I found myself nodding in agreement pretty much all the way.

Can you tell me whether the oil and sugar are stated by weight and, if so, do you have equivalent measures by teaspoon or tablespoon?  Also, I note that the dough ball weight you used is around 27 ounces or so, for a 16-inch pizza.  The typical NY style pizza dough recipe is around 20-24 ounces.  Whenever I get above 22 ounces or so, I find that I can stretch the dough much more than 16 inches if I wanted to and had a way of baking the larger pizza.  When I go to 16 inches, I usually end up with a larger rim, especially if I also use a fair amount of yeast.  With your dough ball size, was the crust thicker in the middle?  Also, did the crust have the usual characteristics of a NY style pizza?

You also indicate that you were looking for a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F.   When I made my last dough ball by hand, the room temperature was around 80 degrees F and the water temperature I ended up using was 79 degrees F.  The finished dough temperature was 80 degrees F.  Using the higher water temperature in your case (I assume for all of the water, not just the proofing water for the ADY), did you hit the desired finished dough temperature?

You also indicated recently that you found a source for the Grande cheese and the Stanislaus tomatoes.  Can you tell us where you found them?  If you can believe it, I can't even find any whole-milk mozzarella cheese in the local supermarkets in the area where I live.  BTW, from what I have read, your experience with the different cheeses and blends is consistent with the experiences of professional pizza makers.    

Finally, I wonder what the major differences were between the pizzas you were originally making and the most recent one.   It sounds like you have come a long way from your earlier efforts.  

Thanks.

Peter  

[Giovanni]

Peter,

I assume you mean the details in the 'Newbe needing info' thread. I actually wrote that before i made this pizza but it is the exact method and ingredients that i used. I weighed everything on my digital scale but i don't have the equivalent measurements. You are correct, I weighed the dough ball before i put it in the fridge and it was exactly 27 oz. I could have easily stretched it to make an 18" pie but i like an extra thick rim so i can dip it in garlic butter:) The finished crust had a huge rim which you can't really see from this photo but it was really thin in the middle and had the classic 'flop' effect when i picked up a slice.

The water temp was for all the water and i actually hit the finished temp right on the money at 85 degrees. My room temp was probably 68-70 degrees.

I spent a lot of time emailing and calling places but i finally found 3 places that can sell me all the brands i wanted. The downside is that the quantity and price is not ideal. For the part-skim grande i got it from verns cheese (http://www.vernscheese.com/). They only sell diced and shredded in 5 pound bags. I got the diced version for $25 shipped and it was really good quality despite being diced from the factory. For the whole milk grande i had to go through Di Bruno (http://www.dibruno.com/) and this stuff was crazy expensive. They actually had the 5 pound 'log' version but it cost me $85 shipped! The packaging was great, it came with cool packs inside a foam cooler. For the stanislaus i went through Chefs Warehouse (http://www.chefswarehouse.com/). The downside is that they only sell cases so you get six 6 pound cans of the stuff. The shipping was $20 so that was $50 just for the tomatoes. I have already frozen my cheese in 1/2 pound blocks so hopefully it was last a while and retain the quality. I'm not worried about freezing my unused sauce since my experience before is that the quality is not hurt.

My first pizzas a long while back (2 years or so) were always flat and had little taste. Since getting advice here each pie has increased in quality in terms of color, taste, and the quality of the finished crust. Even 2-3 months ago i would say my pizzas where average in taste but this was mostly due to the fact that the sauce and cheese were not right. I can honestly say that this last pizza with the grande and stanislaus was perfect. The pepperoni even tasted better this time around! My wife has always been vocal in the past and has literally hated some of the pizzas i made (i did too) but she loves what I'm doing now and says she prefers it over any delivery pizza.

[Steve]

For the whole milk grande i had to go through Di Bruno (http://www.dibruno.com/) and this stuff was crazy expensive. They actually had the 5 pound 'log' version but it cost me $85 shipped! The packaging was great, it came with cool packs inside a foam cooler.

 

[Pete-zza]

Giovanni,

Yes, I meant the Newbe thread.

Thanks for the additional information.  Out of curiosity, I checked the water temperature based on what you told me, and I came up with around 115 degrees F.  As you may know if you have been following Giotto's posts, he uses ADY and warm water, but only about 1 T of water (and a lot less ADY).  The rest of the water he keeps on the cooler side.   Using his approach, you would most likely need a little bit more water for proofing purposes.  

I did a quick check with my scale on the amount of sugar and oil in your recipe, and if my measurements were right, it looks like you are using around 4 t. of sugar and about 3 T. of olive oil.   This makes your recipe quite similar to Canadave's recipe, which is a keeper (except I use either no sugar or only a small amount).  I think he would like your recipe too.  

It's a shame that we have to pay so much to get the same, high quality ingredients that professionals use.  I was in Massachusetts recently and was able to spend some quality time with a local pizza maker.  He uses the Stanislaus tomatoes.  When I asked him about using the Escalon 6-in-1s, he looked at me as if I was crazy.  He says that he has no reason whatsoever to switch.  Now, that's brand loyalty.  He also uses a pre-diced mozzarella cheese, with an Italian sounding name I didn't recognize.  It was low-moisture, part-skim.  He made me a pizza using the cheese and I wouldn't have guessed that it was pre-diced.  Looking at the photo of your pizza, I wouldn't have been able to tell that you used any diced cheese either.

I am using your freezer approach today to make a dough for use in about 2 days.  My fear at first was that I would forget the dough in the freezer.  That could happen, of course, but the way I make my doughs would be pretty much along the lines that Tom L. recommends for making frozen dough in any event.  It would just alter my schedule for making the pizza from the frozen dough.  

Your comment about preferring the large rim on the pizza reminded me of a little story that Big Dave of PMQ tells about putting butter on the rims (he refers to the rims as "bones") to get his patrons (in his former pizza business, Big Dave's) to eat more "bones" than the more expensive protein (mainly cheese) on the pizza.  I was able to track down his story and thought you would get a kick out of it.  Here is what he said (unedited, in quotes):

"At Big Dave's we brushed on melted butter to the crust as it came out of the oven. This shined the crust and gave it a 'just baked buttery flavor'. Since 28% of my gross sales was buffet I wanted to have customers eat all of the crust (carbs) and less protien (cheese-toppings). Many times we would have a customer eat 5-6 slices and leave 5-6 'bones' (uneaten crust) on their plates. I did scientific study??? by dumping the dining room garbage cans in a plastic kiddie pool near the dumpster and counting the 'Bones'. Before we started buttering the crust the bones we had alot of bones. After we started buttering the bones were very scarce."  

Peter

[RoadPizza]

"At Big Dave's we brushed on melted butter to the crust as it came out of the oven. This shined the crust and gave it a 'just baked buttery flavor'. Since 28% of my gross sales was buffet I wanted to have customers eat all of the crust (carbs) and less protien (cheese-toppings). Many times we would have a customer eat 5-6 slices and leave 5-6 'bones' (uneaten crust) on their plates. I did scientific study??? by dumping the dining room garbage cans in a plastic kiddie pool near the dumpster and counting the 'Bones'. Before we started buttering the crust the bones we had alot of bones. After we started buttering the bones were very scarce."  

Though I LOATHE Pizza Hut ( can't stand their pizza sauce), they do have a pretty good R & D division.  One thing they've added locally are toppings inside the crust.  They would put in either sausage, pepperoni, mozzarella, and even cream cheese in the crust or "bones", to give them more flavor.  In the US, I'm pretty sure the only "stuffed crust" pizza they offer is mozzarella stuffing.

We use butter on our crusts here, more for a display purpose (to get rid of the white cooked flour look and to add a golden color to the crust), because the locals still haven't gotten used to the idea of eating the whole pizza yet (unless they were in Pizza Hut).

[Giovanni]

RoadPizza:

I agree the pizza hut sauce is horrible. It was better about 10 years ago before they 'changed' the recipe. I actually liked their pizza back then.

Peter:

The only reason i used sugar is to help with browning. My crusts will not brown without the added sugar. I tried using whole milk and even powdered milk but it didn’t help. With the screen and the sugar i have been getting fairly consistent browning although i have found that less fermentation or yeast also produces better browning.

Since tasting stanislaus i probably will never even try another brand. I could eat it right out of the can because it has that naturally sweet flavor. I can't say the same for 6 in 1.

If there was a market for it i would start an online shop to resell these high quality ingredients to home pizza makers who are serious about it. That way I could keep myself supplied but not have to worry about the high costs and storing the bulk. Unfortunately i don't think there are enough people like us to warrant such a business.

[Steve]

Giovanni,

I must respectfully disagree with you regarding the Stanislaus product tasting sweeter (better) than the Escalon 6-in-1 product.

While I have not received my Stanislaus Full Red pizza sauce yet, I have tried Escalon's Bonta pizza sauce (Bonta and Full Red are purportedly very similar). My Bonta sauce had added fresh basil which gave the sauce a sweeter flavor. And, from your comments, it sounds like you purchased the Full Red pizza sauce that has added basil.

Both the Bonta and, from your description, the Full Red are concentrated products and must be diluted with water to make pizza sauce. Because of the concentration, their flavors will be much more intense in the non-diluted form.

I have tasted, side-by-side, the Bonta pizza sauce and the 6-in-1 crushed tomatoes and I must say that 6-in-1 has a very fresh flavor, sans basil.

I will try to perform a side-by-side comparison of the Stanislaus 7/11 and Escalon 6-in-1 (these are comparible products), and another comparison between the Bonta pizza sauce with basil and the Full Red pizza sauce with basil (again, comparible products) and report my findings here.

[Giovanni]

You're correct about the full red being concentrated whereas the 6 in 1 is not. I still prefered it over 6 in 1 after the sauce was made and on the pizza. Again, this is my opinion only and I'm sure some might disagree. I think stanislaus just works better for my type of sauce recipe.

[Steve]

I think that both the 6-in-1 and the Bonta are excellent tasting tomatoes.

I too have discoverd that the Bonta pizza sauce with basil, when diluted with water, and with spices added, produces a far superior NY style pizza sauce to even the 6-in-1. So, I can also assume that the Full Red pizza sauce with basil will produce similar results.

But, I must say that the 6-in-1 tomatoes are better on a Chicago style pizza which usually has a chunkier texture.

I guess what I'm getting at is that each product has its own niche application. The Bonta (and Full Red) sauces are well suited for NY style pizza, while the 6-in-1 (and 7/11) are well suited for Chicago style pizza.

[Pete-zza]

Giovanni,

I added some sugar to the batch of dough I started yesterday afternoon.  I did it for the same reason (increased browning) but also because I want the dough to go out at least 2 days before using.  To help with that objective, I also used cold water, around 44 degrees F, and used your technique of freezing the dough for about 30-40 minutes before putting it in the refrigerator section.  Like you, I have found that if I don't do these kinds of things, the browning will be less pronounced, even after a 24-hour rise.

As for the use of milk, whether in liquid or dry form, I have read a lot of conflicting things.  There are apparently some kinds of enzymes or proteins in milk that interfere with the fermentation process, so it is common to recommend that milk in liquid form be scalded and then cooled before using (to disable the offending enzymes/proteins), and to do much the same with milk reconstituted from the dry form.  Tom L. says that one should use only high-heat baker's grade dry milk (or whey).  That means having to find a source and ending up with a bag of something that has only limited and occasional use.  The only reason I would do it is to satisfy my curiosity and see whether it works.  

I agree with you about trying to supply small home bakers with the high quality ingredients you have been talking about.   I know very few people personally that even make pizzas at home.  And they just want to make pizzas from stuff they can buy at the local supermarket.  That's why I am convinced that Peter Reinhart wrote his book American Pie with the typical home baker in mind.  I know that he knows far more about the subject than what is in his book.  But the home market for that additional subject matter-and for high quality pizza ingredients as well--is very small.  

Peter

[JAG]

Hello again, this is relating back to the thread I left in the ingredients section. If anyone is interested, can get #10 cans of 5 Escalon sauces, 7 Stanislaus including 3 versions of Full Red, Furmano's, Isabella and Dei Frattelli sauces, and Angela Mia. The above would also include whole peeled pear tomatoes. Like I said before I could mail sauces for you all to sample but shipping costs may not be worth it to you. If anyone is interested you can email me or reply to the forum and maybe we can get some of these sauces to interested parties for sampling.

[canadave]

Holy smokes...I tried the recipe from the "Newbe needing help" thread that's discussed here....the dough was just a big pile of goop!  Are you guys SURE about the 10 oz. water plus 16 oz. flour formula that recipe called for??  I mean, I'd hesitate to call the result dough--it turned out to be a sticky, goopy mess!  I did measure and weigh carefully...am I missing something?  

Dave

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

I'm puzzled by your results.  The Newbe recipe used by Giovanni has a hydration percent of 10/16 = 62.5%.  This is within the typical hydration range for a NY style dough of 57-65%.  If I recollect correctly, your "canola oil" NY style dough recipe and the "Lehmann-inspired Canadave recipe" have even higher hydration levels.  So I don't think the hydration level is the culprit.  

I assume that you used a high-gluten flour, such as one like the KA Sir Lancelot flour.  And that you weighed the flour and water on an accurate scale, such as a digital scale.  If you used a flour other than a high-gluten flour or you used an analog spring scale or volumetric measurements (such as for the water), the differences might just be enough to throw off the balance between the flour and the water.  Water by volume and weight are about the same, but I still weigh the water I use for the doughs I make so that I minimize the possibility of error or having to make more than minor adjustments.  If it turns out for any reason that the dough is too sticky because of the ratio of liquids (water and oil) to flour, then I add just enough flour--either to the bowl or bench flour on the work surface--to reach the "tacky" stage, and no more.  It may well be that with the approach of fall and cooler weather in Canada that the flour you are using may have more moisture in it, and even more so if the flour is fresh and has not given up much of its natural moisture content.  Based on what you have said, and assuming no human error in the measurements or insufficient kneading (which may result in incomplete absorption of the water), I can't think of anything else offhand that might explain your results.

Peter

[canadave]

Pete,

Thanks for the reply...no, actually my recipe I usually use has a lower hydration percentage (I forget offhand, but it's something like 55%).

I don't have a digital scale, but believe me--an analog scale isn't the culprit here.  It wasn't even close to being usable dough.  I let the mixer keep kneading for a few minutes, and the dough hook was just uselessly twisting through something that was almost liquid, just goopy enough to be quasi-solid.  That also makes me think it wasn't something like the added moisture to flour from the weather.  It'd have to be pretty dramatic to do that.  I added two heaping handfuls of flour when I realized this experiment wasn't working, and it STILL was way too sticky to work with (although it did at least start resembling "dough").

I also clearly remember measuring the ingredients (I'm always paranoid about that, so I take extra care when measuring so that I don't do something stupid precisely for that reason), so I don't think it was human error there.  

The only thing I can think of is maybe my methodology is off.  I added all the water to the flour at once; is it possible that maybe I have to only add a portion of the water, let that knead in with the flour, and then gradually (slowly) add the rest of the water?    I dunno.  It was such a weird (and disappointing) experience, since Giovanni seemed to attain really wonderful results (judging by the picture) using that recipe--that's why I was wondering if there was a typo in his recipe somewhere, or something silly like that.

Dave

[Randy]

Dave I use 9.6 oz of water to 16 oz of flour.  Try the following procedure next time.  After your mixer has been kneading for 5 minutes look in the bowl and see how much dough is sticking to the bottom of the bowl.  If it is sticking to everything it touches, add a tablespoon of flour and watch the dough ball.  As soon as it collapses again add another tablespoon of flour.  Keep doing this until only a small spot(1 to 2 inches) beneath the ball is sticking while the machine runs.  It may leave no spot if you go a bit to far but don’t worry about it.  The dough will still be sticky so turn it out on a floured surface and knead by hand a couple of times then shape the ball.  You can handle the dough by hand.

Keep track of how many tablespoons you added so the next time you cane get it closer.
If you think you added too much flour add a teaspoon of water.

Hope this helps.

Randy

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

I went back to your recipe for NY style dough at the "canola oil" thread (Reply #13) and to your recipe for NY style dough at the Lehmann thread ("Canadave Lehmann-Inspired" recipe, at Reply #60) and note that the former recipe calls for 28 oz. of pizza flour and 2 1/4 c. of cold tap water and that the latter recipe calls for 1 lb. 12 oz. (28 oz.) of flour and 2 1/3 c. cool water.  To convert volume to weight, I brought out my digital scale and weighed 2 1/4 c. water (18.7 oz.) and 2 1/3 c. water (18.5 oz.) that I had placed in a Pyrex glass measuring cup (which I tared out to zero).   Unless my math is messed up somewhere, that yields a hydration percentage of 66.8% (18.7/28) for the canola oil recipe and 66% (18.5/28) for the Lehmann-Inspired recipe.  There is the possibility of some error in this procedure since it is difficult to accurately measure water in a measuring cup visually since water in a container has a meniscus that makes it difficult to accurately measure using the eyeball approach.  Also, the water in the cup has to completly settle on a flat surface and be read at eye level to determine how much you really have in the cup.  On many occasions I have weighed water that I eyeballed in a measuring cup and have gotten inconsistent readings.  Weighing the water directly on a scale gets around this problem.

Based on the above, I am inclined to think that maybe your hydration percentage is a bit too high.  This in itself puzzles me since you achieved very good results with your recipes in your prior efforts using the quantities of flour and water mentioned above.  I don't think the sequence of mixing the flour and water is necessarily at fault.  Home pizza makers tend to add the water to the flour.  Professionals often do the reverse, that is, add all the water to the bowl and then the flour (all at once).  This is less of a problem when all the ingredients are accurately weighed out.  Under your circumstances, you might try adding the water to the flour gradually (as you suggest) until the dough takes the form you want, and then stop adding the water (except to make minor final adjustments).  At that point, you might want to make a note of how much water is left in your measuring cup so that you can recalculate the amount of water to use the next time you use the recipe.  Taking these steps should correct any future problems with excessive hydration, if that is the problem you experienced.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

After posting the above reply, I decided out of curiosity to run a small test in which I weighed what I believed to be 8 oz. of flour and 1 cup of water on both my analog scale (a Polder spring loaded analog scale with manual tare adjustment) and my Soehnle digital scale (with electronic tare adjustment).  I made four separate readings of the flour and water.  For the water, I used a one-cup Pyrex glass measuring cup, which I filled to the one-cup level by eyeball and read on a flat surface at eye level.

The four 8 oz. flour "readings" on the analog scale weighed 7.60 oz., 8.75 oz., 7.75 oz., and 7.25 oz. when read on the digital scale.  The four 1 cup water "readings" on the analolg scale weighed 7.2 oz., 7.2 oz., 7.5 oz., and 7.5 oz.  The corresponding digital readings were 7.75 oz., 7.85 oz., 7.85 oz. and 7.55 oz., respectively.  As  you can see, even for relatively small quantities of ingredients, the swings can be fairly substantial.  (Big Dave at PMQ also notes: "When you are doing extremely small batches, the slightest tweak in ingredients will have major ramifications in the end product. Small batches are un-forgiving".)

None of this is to suggest that you can't make a decent pizza dough without a digital scale and very accurate measurements.  It just means that you will in most cases have to make adjustments to the flour and water.  Even with a digital scale and accurate measurements you will from time to time have to make the same kinds of adjustments.  I do exactly as Randy suggests in a previous post, and note what changes were required so that I can recalculate the ingredient amounts for future reference.  The overall accuracy can also be improved somewhat by being sure to use measuring cups intended to measure dry ingredients (e.g., flour) to measure dry ingredients and to use measuring cups intended to measure wet ingredients (e.g., water) to measure wet ingredients.  I sometimes see people use Pyrex glass measuring cups to measure both wet and dry ingredients.  Doing this will throw off the accuracy of the measurements.

I'm a firm believer in accurately weighing ingredients like flour and water, and I consider my digital scale to be one of my most valuable pizza-making tools.  As readers of my posted recipes may have noted, I usually convert my recipe ingredients from weight to volume measurements.  This is done only to benefit those who do not have any scale, analog or digital.  So, the volume measurements shouldn't be taken as absolute gospel.  They are approximations only and may produce results that vary (hopefully not too much) from those produced using the more accurate and precise weight measurements.

Peter