New Haven Style

[David]

I believe the Clam Pizza is a signature type that New Haven is recognized for.Apart from that I don't know that they are that different from any of the "Elite" tri State Coal Oven Pizzas?
My old neighbor  (in NJ )spent a couple of years at Quinnipiac university.I asked her about the New Haven pizza scene and she seemed somewhat dismissive,that she thought it was more hype than anything else.I took that as my official Quinnipiac poll.

[Pete-zza]

I have read that Sally's pizzas are more in the shape of an oblong. I believe also that scott r previously reported that Pepe's uses a fairly high gluten Pillsbury flour. I do not recall reading that any of the NY elite places use that particular flour.

Peter

[trosenberg]

  With all due respect Calvin Trillin and Arthur Bryant's are both iconic.  Anyone truly knowledgeable about America and its food should be familiar with this writer and the KC eatery. 

[sourdough girl]

Whether or not I know anything about American food is not the issue. 

Calvin Trillin, food humorist, declares Arthur Bryant's to be THE BEST RESTAURANT IN THE WORLD.... hmmmm.  Kinda removes a little credibility from both. 

The Herbfarm is iconic, too...  quick, google it so you'll be in the know!     NOBODY can be aware of all the "iconic" American eateries... because the definition depends on the neighborhood.  Sorry I'm not knowledgeable in your eyes.  Never claimed to be Alton Brown, Feasting on Asphalt.  Never heard of any of the restaurants in Bobby Flay's throwdowns, either, but THEY are iconic in their own states.  Therefore, while YOU may consider Arthur Bryant's iconic, that does not mean everyone does.  Just ask anyone in the Carolinas or Texas if they consider anything about KC BBQ iconic... and they will tell you that it's not even BBQ, let alone iconic!!  JMHO.

Besides, the real issue here is not whether or not I know anything about American food (that's not really germaine to the issue)... it's about whether or not New Haven deserves its own section of the forum.  The Great and Powerful Oz (Pete-zza) has spoken.

With all due respect
~sd

[sourdough girl]

I changed my answer above, but for those changes to be recognized, I am adding a new post... so, see above.   It has changed quite a bit!   

~sd

[trosenberg]

Dear SD Girl, Easy does it. My point is; before one criticizes a writer or a restaurant perhaps, just maybe perhaps, one should have some knowledge of them.  I realize I am old fashioned in this respect but what I mean by knowledge of a writer is to actually pick up a book he has written & by knowledge of a restaurant I mean to have eaten there.  Googling a person, place or thing isn't the same. BTW I haven't been to Bryant's in 25 years & for all I know the place sucks now but I can remember what I had last time I was there & I don't care what someone in Texas or NC says; this NY Jew loved it! As for Trillin; he is funny and he knows food. Being funny and knowledgeable are not mutually exclusive. 

[charbo]

In Reinhart’s book American Pie, he devotes several pages to New Haven pizza, but he doesn’t differentiate it in any significant way.  In his dough types, he groups New Haven with elite New York and calls it Neo-Neapolitan. 

I think the forum might be better served by removing high-baking-temperature pizza threads from the New York section and designating them Neo-Neapolitan.  The remaining threads could be called NY-Street.

[Pete-zza]

I think the forum might be better served by removing high-baking-temperature pizza threads from the New York section and designating them Neo-Neapolitan.  The remaining threads could be called NY-Street.

charbo,

If you were to define the two NY types for purposes of the index used by the forum, what would your definitions be so that posters would know where to post their NY styles with a minimum of confusion? And where would you classify the DiFara and Pizza Bianco styles?

Peter

[sourdough girl]

trosenberg,
I'm sorry, what we have here is a failure to communicate.  My fault. 

My point, pure and simple, is that because Calvin Trillin declared New Haven "the holy city of pizza" does not make it true.  It is not a valid argument to have a New Haven board added to this forum.  Jamie thought it was.

The only reason that I brought up Arthur Bryant's was to back up my argument: Calvin Trillin declares IT to be "the best restaurant in the world, with no qualifications to that statement.  I have absolutely no doubt that it is a wonderful restaurant.  Perhaps the best in KC, perhaps even the best in MO AND KS, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is NOT the best restaurant in the entire world.  Methinks Calvin was being humorous.  He seems to enjoy the use of hyperbole, so he was probably using that device again for humor concerning New Haven. Notice he does not, apparently, qualify that statement.  Or, if he did, Jamie failed to mention it in his fervor.  I think we woiuld all agree that the holy of city of pizza is not in the United States, and certainly not in CT.  It is in Italy.

I was trying to get Jamie to understand this concept.  That was, unfortunately, a lost cause.

~sd

[trosenberg]

OK SD Girl, You have forced my hand.  I have no choice; I am going to go to every restaurant in the world and when I am done I'll let you know if I agree with Trillin or not.  There is a possibility is isn't the best.  BTW he is an amusing guy. 
Makes me think it might be fun to start a thread on most memorable restaurant meal.

[David]

In Reinhart’s book American Pie, he devotes several pages to New Haven pizza, but he doesn’t differentiate it in any significant way.  In his dough types, he groups New Haven with elite New York and calls it Neo-Neapolitan. 

I think the forum might be better served by removing high-baking-temperature pizza threads from the New York section and designating them Neo-Neapolitan.  The remaining threads could be called NY-Street.

I think this is one of the main causes of problems.Cases where often (misinformed ) journalists start naming styles and associating them with the classics,thus misleading people to the true definitions.I'm not pointing any fingers at Reinhart (His American Pie is probably the best English language Pizza book to date IMO )but hordes of others.The fact that a pizza is cooked at high temps does not make it Neapolitan or Neapolitan style.The crust,minimal toppings,wood fired does.Every coal fired pizza I've ever had has been over laden with toppings,heavy on the stomach,made with American flours and more often that not too heavily charred.The one exception to my experiences has been at Luzzos in New York,who use a combination of fuels and Italian flour.However the horse is out of the gate now,and I guess we have to accept the fact that people will in this country will identify coal oven cooked pizza as Neo-Neapolitan rather than on their own defined style.
Yesterday I came across the following comment from a disturbing 2001 article written by an American journalist in Naples.Italy.

"Most restaurants in Naples that serve pizza use electric ovens, which means their crusts have the texture of wallboard, exactly the way we like it in America."

The long full text can be found here:

 http://men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_4169&pageNum=3

I'm guessing that this is the same journalist who is the Dean of Journalism at the French Cullinary Institute?

Alan Richman Dean of Food Journalism
.
Alan Richman is the recipient of twelve James Beard Foundation Journalism Awards for food writing, including the M.F.K. Fisher Distinguished Writing Award twice. He is also the first food writer to have received a National Magazine Award. For many years he was the restaurant critic for GQ magazine before becoming a writer for Bon Appétit, Condé Nast Traveler, and GQ in 2003.

[Davydd]

Calvin Trillin is the godfather of regional American food and predates Michael and Jane Stern's road food efforts and the Food Network's efforts in that category. You can be a humorist and a food critic at the same time. Arthur Bryant's is a nationally famous bar-b-que restaurant that has been labeled by others as the best bar-b-que in the nation. Keep in mind his books go way back to the 70s but he was one of the first to cover this category. It is but one man's opinion, but this man is probably more well traveled than anyone on this board and his opinion can be respected. I would say one does not know much about bar-b-que if they had never heard of Arthur Bryant's or about American ethnic and regional food if you hadn't heard of Calvin Trillin. Keep in mind there are several schools of thought about what bar-b-que is centered around North Carolina, Memphis, Kansas City and the State of Texas. I guess the same goes with pizza obviously. I thought Jamie had a reasonable request about New Haven.

[sourdough girl]

Davydd,
Perhaps you should check with trosenberg to see if he's left on his quest yet... he might let you accompany him.    (See post #29)

You miss my point completely.  This has NOTHING to do with my knowledge of Calvin Trillin, Bar-b-que or Arthur Bryant's, but EVERYTHING to do with the holy city of pizza being in Italy, not Connecticut.  Please read post #28 again, if you have read it at all.

BTW, just FYI, us left-coasters don't get so over-wrought about BBQ.  Let TX-MO-NC-TN fight.  We'll take a nice Copper River salmon steak over a hot alderwood fire.  With a glass of good, crisp Chardonnay.   

~sd

[charbo]

In the New York section, one may find discussion of pizza cooked at anywhere from 450° to 850°, or even higher.  I don’t think one can say that the 450° pizza is the same style as the 850° pizza.  About the only thing they have in common is a circular shape and foldability.

The high-temp pizza, whether made in NY, NH, SF, or Phoenix, reflects a modest loosening of some of the neapolitan standards.  Any fuel type can be used, and baking temp can be somewhat lower.  Various flours may be used, but not 100% high-gluten.  Any toppings can be used, but they should still be light.  

The low-temp pizza is quite different.  It typically is made with a higher-gluten flour, a little less hydration, some oil in the dough, and perhaps sugar as well.  It can be much larger in diameter.  It can be cooked on a pan, a screen, or the hearth.  The oven is gas or electric, and the bake time is longer.  Toppings are heavier.  The pie is less crispy on the exterior and more chewy overall.

Logically, the two types should be separated.  

[Pete-zza]

charbo,

Thank you for your reply.

Shortly after you suggested the division of the NY style into two separate categories, I referred the suggestion to Steve for his consideration. I even volunteered to do the division if he felt it was appropriate, knowing that I, or some other Moderator, would have to review almost 500 topics (threads) in the NY index, with over 8100 posts, as part of the separation process.

My principal concern is that any definitions for the two categories, if adopted, be unambiguous as much as possible, so that members post in the proper places. With the present index, that is not an issue. But if people are given two filing choices that are more similar than dissimilar and post in the wrong place, then that means that the Moderators have to be on their toes to detect any mispostings, which I can guarantee you will be inevitable. My current practice when a post is put in the wrong place is to move the post to the correct--or better--place and notify the poster by PM of the move and the post's new location so that he or she doesn't think that the post didn't register or it somehow disappeared. Obviously, as a Moderator, I would rather keep such communications with members to a minimum. I specifically mentioned DiFara's mainly because I think the DiFara pizza style is a cross between the two categories you suggested. I perhaps would put it in the "elite" category, as much because of tradition than anything else. Maybe the Bianco pizza should go in the same place. We also have members who make thin versions of the Lehmann NY "street" style and make them in large sizes and bake them in very high temperature ovens. Some of the members are also now using the 2stone units operating at very high temperatures, and making pizzas of sizes that are getting increasingly larger as Willard introduces new models. Some members are also using modified Deni-2100 and Villa Roma LBE units to make all kinds of pizzas at very high temperatures. I can already see myself scratching my head to determine where posts in those cases should be filed. I personally would prefer not to add a bunch more boards as a way of solving the filing problem.

I have already volunteered, so I will abide by whatever decision is made.

Peter