Author Topic: Yet Some More Pizzas  (Read 2398 times)

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Offline GrilledPizzaLover

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Yet Some More Pizzas
« on: March 02, 2008, 04:44:19 AM »
I made 2 pizzas tonight. Unfortunately, I didn't have the ingredients on hand to make the dough a night or 2 before hand, so I used Y-TOWN's "same-day" recipe as posted here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6173.0.html

The first pizza was made with olive oil and herbs as a "sauce", with ground lamb, plum tomatoes, Kalamata olives, onions, Feta cheese, and a little mozzarella. The second one had tomato sauce, ground beef, sausage, pepperoni, ham, fresh portabellas, and mozzarella.

They turned out well, however; This dough recipe will do in a pinch, but I still prefer making it a day or 2 ahead of time using this recipe: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6054.0.html.

Tonight's dough wasn't near as light and airy, and lacked almost any air pockets whatsoever! Over all though, if in a pinch, I'd definitely recommend Y-TOWN's recipe, when you need to make the dough the same day!   
A "bad" homemade pizza is better than any "good" chain pizza!


Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2008, 09:32:08 AM »
I made 2 pizzas tonight. Unfortunately, I didn't have the ingredients on hand to make the dough a night or 2 before hand, so I used Y-TOWN's "same-day" recipe as posted here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6173.0.html


GrilledPizzaLover

I have refined that recipe over the past year:

Original:
1-1/2 cup warm water (110*-115* F - if waters too hot it will kill yeast immediately)
2 TBSP - sugar
1-1/4 oz Active Dry Yeast Packet
1-1/2 TSP. - Salt
2 TBSP - Olive Oil
4 Cups of bread flour


Updated:
4 cups of AP or bread flour in mixer bowl
One package of quick rise dry yeast in mixer bowl
1-1/2 tsp of salt in mixer bowl
turn mixer on low speed for about one minute to combine ingredients

All mixed together in the measuring cup for the water:
1-1/2 cup water (110* to 115* F) - if the waters too hot (120* +) it will kill the yeast immediately
3 TBSP honey
2 TBSP olive oil - (if you like a chewier crust leave the olive oil out)

stir with spoon for a minute or so until combined

Start mixer with dry products on low and add the water which contains the honey and oil down the side of the mixing bowl

knead in mixer for about 3 minutes - I never knead this mixture for more than that - I think more kneading times reduces the quality of this dough recipe.

Pull the mixer bowl, cover with kitchen wrap and put the bowl in the micro wave for about an hour or so (DON'T TURN ON THE MICROWAVE)

The dough usually rises more than double in that period of time (microwave placement was the cooking schools idea) absolutely no draft in that thing as it is sealed with the door shut

I double batch this recipe when I typically make dough and don't double all ingredients:

8 cups of flour, (still one yeast packet), 3 cups of water, 3 TBSP of Honey, 2 tsp of salt, 2 TBSP olive oil - same knead time and into the microwave for an hour or so.

I cut the finished product into 4 pieces shoot some PAM into gallon freezer bags and put 3 into the refrigerator for up to 3 days. If there is any dough left after the 3rd day I freeze it.

I really can't tell much difference in taste between the fresh and frozen dough. I take the frozen dough bag and put it into the refrigerator to thaw overnight.

The 2nd or 3rd day dough bags are much better - but the first dough used that night is good too.

Y-Town
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 09:52:57 AM by Y-TOWN »

Offline GrilledPizzaLover

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 03:20:38 AM »
GrilledPizzaLover

I have refined that recipe over the past year:

Original:
1-1/2 cup warm water (110*-115* F - if waters too hot it will kill yeast immediately)
2 TBSP - sugar
1-1/4 oz Active Dry Yeast Packet
1-1/2 TSP. - Salt
2 TBSP - Olive Oil
4 Cups of bread flour


Updated:
4 cups of AP or bread flour in mixer bowl
One package of quick rise dry yeast in mixer bowl
1-1/2 tsp of salt in mixer bowl
turn mixer on low speed for about one minute to combine ingredients

All mixed together in the measuring cup for the water:
1-1/2 cup water (110* to 115* F) - if the waters too hot (120* +) it will kill the yeast immediately
3 TBSP honey
2 TBSP olive oil - (if you like a chewier crust leave the olive oil out)

stir with spoon for a minute or so until combined

Start mixer with dry products on low and add the water which contains the honey and oil down the side of the mixing bowl

knead in mixer for about 3 minutes - I never knead this mixture for more than that - I think more kneading times reduces the quality of this dough recipe.

Pull the mixer bowl, cover with kitchen wrap and put the bowl in the micro wave for about an hour or so (DON'T TURN ON THE MICROWAVE)

The dough usually rises more than double in that period of time (microwave placement was the cooking schools idea) absolutely no draft in that thing as it is sealed with the door shut

I double batch this recipe when I typically make dough and don't double all ingredients:

8 cups of flour, (still one yeast packet), 3 cups of water, 3 TBSP of Honey, 2 tsp of salt, 2 TBSP olive oil - same knead time and into the microwave for an hour or so.

I cut the finished product into 4 pieces shoot some PAM into gallon freezer bags and put 3 into the refrigerator for up to 3 days. If there is any dough left after the 3rd day I freeze it.

I really can't tell much difference in taste between the fresh and frozen dough. I take the frozen dough bag and put it into the refrigerator to thaw overnight.

The 2nd or 3rd day dough bags are much better - but the first dough used that night is good too.

Y-Town


Hey, there, Y-TOWN- I made another pizza tonight with some of the the leftover toppings from last night. Since I didn't have the time to cold proof the dough over night, I used your refined version of "same-day" dough. I had a few problems with it. As a disclaimer, I proofed it on the stove top for a while- I'm afraid to proof it in the microwave- if it isn't absolutely clean, who knows what may lurk inside?!- and finished it in the fridge for about 2 hours. Also, I didn't have rapid rise yeast, so I added a small amount of the regular ADY to the amount the recipe calls for. Is 3 TBLS of honey correct? That seems like a lot. I used 2 TBLS. I kneaded it in the KitchenAid for only 3 minutes, as per your recipe. I took it out of the fridge, and allowed it to come to room temp. I then stretched it out to about 12", and here is where the trouble began. It was very difficult to work with, and I ended up with lots of holes in the crust. I know I deviated from your recipe in several ways, but I'm wondering if the reason for the lack of elasticity to the dough was due to the short kneading time. I believe- maybe incorrectly so- that if I had kneaded the dough longer, it would have been easier to work with. What do you, or anyone else who knows more than me- as in everyone- think? Thanks again for your suggestions and help!

GPL     
A "bad" homemade pizza is better than any "good" chain pizza!

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 07:50:40 AM »
Hey, there, Y-TOWN- I made another pizza tonight with some of the the leftover toppings from last night. Since I didn't have the time to cold proof the dough over night, I used your refined version of "same-day" dough. I had a few problems with it. As a disclaimer, I proofed it on the stove top for a while- I'm afraid to proof it in the microwave- if it isn't absolutely clean, who knows what may lurk inside?!- and finished it in the fridge for about 2 hours. Also, I didn't have rapid rise yeast, so I added a small amount of the regular ADY to the amount the recipe calls for. Is 3 TBLS of honey correct? That seems like a lot. I used 2 TBLS. I kneaded it in the KitchenAid for only 3 minutes, as per your recipe. I took it out of the fridge, and allowed it to come to room temp. I then stretched it out to about 12", and here is where the trouble began. It was very difficult to work with, and I ended up with lots of holes in the crust. I know I deviated from your recipe in several ways, but I'm wondering if the reason for the lack of elasticity to the dough was due to the short kneading time. I believe- maybe incorrectly so- that if I had kneaded the dough longer, it would have been easier to work with. What do you, or anyone else who knows more than me- as in everyone- think? Thanks again for your suggestions and help!

GPL     

GPL

I wish I could tell you what went wrong - the honey measurement is what I currently use - I've done the same thing with the yeast and didn't have a problem - The only thing I can think of for immediate use dough is the refrigeration of the dough you were going to use that day might be the problem (really shorting the rise time) - I  don't refrigerate the portion of the dough I'm going to use that day it's all non-refrigerated counter rise  - the balance of what is not used for that day is bagged and refrigerated for use in the next 2-3 days. If that dough is not used in (say) 2-3 days I squeeze the air out of the bag and pop it in the freezer for use the next weekend. 

Maybe Peter can come to the rescue - he is somewhat familiar with this dough formula

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 08:56:10 AM »
Maybe Peter can come to the rescue - he is somewhat familiar with this dough formula

Richard,

I'd be happy to take a look at your revised dough formulation to see if I can spot anything that might have affected GPL's results. But before doing so, can you tell me what method you use to measure out the flour and water, and with what type and sizes of measuring cups? Also, can you tell me what brands of all-purpose and bread flour you are using for the subject dough formulation?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 09:16:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2008, 11:18:45 AM »
Richard,

I'd be happy to take a look at your revised dough formulation to see if I can spot anything that might have affected GPL's results. But before doing so, can you tell me what method you use to measure out the flour and water, and with what type and sizes of measuring cups? Also, can you tell me what brands of all-purpose and bread flour you are using for the subject dough formulation?

Peter

glass measuring cup with hash markes up the side to 16 oz - don't weight (although I should) the measuring cup has a hash mark which states "1 Cup"

Typically I use KA bread flour - I have not tried this recipe with AP flour, although I always thought it might work better.

Thanks for taking the time

Regards,

Richard

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 12:41:19 PM »
Richard,

If I understand you correctly, you are using a 16-ounce (two-cup) glass measuring cup to measure the flour and, I assume, also the water. As for the method you use, do you first stir the flour in the flour container and then lift it from the flour container (with a scoop or tablespoon) into the measuring cup to the two-cup marking level (doing this twice to get four cups), or do you just dip the measuring cup into the flour container (twice) and somehow adjust the level? Does your glass measuring cup have a lip like the Pyrex glass measuring cups? The reason for these questions is that I am trying to figure out the weight of the flour, and it will vary depending on the measuring method used. All of the baker's percents are keyed to the weight of flour, so I would like to get as accurate a reading as possible for the weight of flour. I also have a two-cup measuring cup (glass Pyrex) and I also have some KA bread flour, so I may be able to replicate your measuring steps.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 12:43:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 02:02:57 PM »
Richard,

If I understand you correctly, you are using a 16-ounce (two-cup) glass measuring cup to measure the flour and, I assume, also the water. As for the method you use, do you first stir the flour in the flour container and then lift it from the flour container (with a scoop or tablespoon) into the measuring cup to the two-cup marking level (doing this twice to get four cups), or do you just dip the measuring cup into the flour container (twice) and somehow adjust the level? Does your glass measuring cup have a lip like the Pyrex glass measuring cups? The reason for these questions is that I am trying to figure out the weight of the flour, and it will vary depending on the measuring method used. All of the baker's percents are keyed to the weight of flour, so I would like to get as accurate a reading as possible for the weight of flour. I also have a two-cup measuring cup (glass Pyrex) and I also have some KA bread flour, so I may be able to replicate your measuring steps.

Peter

Peter,

I just pour the flour directly from the 5 pound bag into the cup.

I use a 4 cup glass Pyrex measuring cup. I put the flour into the cup and shake it from side to side slightly to compress the flour and then add or subtract with a large spoon to achieve my 4 cup measurement.

I never am near the lip with four content due to the large size of the cup.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 04:01:36 PM by Y-TOWN »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 04:48:12 PM »
GPL,

Using the information provided by Y-TOWN (thank you, Richard), I replicated his flour and water measuring methods, converted the rest of the ingredients from volumes to weights, and, with the help of the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the dough formulation presented below. In doing all of the calculations, I used two tablespoons of honey, just as you did. I also used the King Arthur bread flour to come up with the number (20.85 oz.) for the weight of that flour. The water came to 13.20 oz. Here is the dough formulation:

King Arthur bread Flour (100%):
Water (63.3094%):
IDY (1.19904%):
Salt (1.41636%):
Olive Oil (4.56778%):
Honey (7.0983%):
Total (177.59088%):
591.1 g  |  20.85 oz | 1.3 lbs
374.22 g  |  13.2 oz | 0.83 lbs
7.09 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp
8.37 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
41.96 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
1049.74 g | 37.03 oz | 2.31 lbs | TF = N/A

One thing you may want to note, although I don't think it was a factor in the problem you experienced, is that the total effective hydration of the above formulation is a bit greater than the 63.31% number given in the above table. That is because of the use of honey, which itself contains water--about 17%. Adding the water in the honey to the formula water expressed in the above table, gives us a total effective hydration of 64.53%. Both of the hydration numbers--63.31% and 64.53%--appear to be credible numbers for the KA bread flour. If Richard ever decides to weigh the flour in the modified dough formulation, as well as the water, then it should be possible to make adjustments to the dough formulation numbers, if warranted.

Initially, I thought that the large amount of honey may have been a factor in the problem you experienced. However, 7.10% honey, while a large number, is not way out of range. In fact, it is a level that is often used in American style dough formulations. With three tablespoons of honey, the percent increases to 10.65%. However, I have seen some Papa John's dough clones with a total sugar/honey content close to that, although I seriously doubt that Papa John's uses such a high level. But, in any event, I am inclined to believe that the high amount of honey was not responsible for the problems you experienced.

I am now inclined to agree with you that the dough was not kneaded long enough, particularly in the context of making a same-day, few-hours dough. For that situation, I think you need far more than 3 minutes knead time for a bit over 37 ounces of dough. In Richard's case, he cold fermented his dough for a few days, which allowed sufficient biochemical activity over that time to complete the gluten development, rather than physically in his stand mixer. I would think that you need about 8-10 minutes at around speed 2 in a basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook. I am somewhat making an educated guess on the knead time because I rarely make 37 ounces of dough. So, you should pay close attention to the condition of the dough. You want it to be smooth with few surface irregularities, cohesive, pliable, and a bit on the tacky side. Doughs with honey usually perform well in the mixer bowl (the honey imparts good rheology to the dough), so I think you will be able to tell when the dough has been kneaded enough. 

I believe your guess on the use of ADY may have been close to the correct amount but I would have to know exactly how much you used to be sure. To convert from 1.20% IDY to ADY in the above dough formulation, you would need 1.598% ADY. That converts to just under 2 1/2 t. of ADY, which is not much more volumetrically than the amount of IDY specified in the above table (a bit over 2 1/3 t.). The difference is not enough to have been a factor in your results.

I also do not think that fermenting your dough on your stove was a factor in your results. Nor do I think that using your microwave unit as a proofing box is deleterious to the dough--or to you--in any way, and especially if you cover the dough bowl while the dough ferments, as Richard instructs. Until I made a separate proofing box, followed later by an MR-138 ThermoKool unit, I used my microwave unit as a proofing box many times.

If you decide to tackle Richard's dough recipe again and you don't see improvement, please let us know. It will also help to keep notes of what you do in case they are needed for diagnostic purposes.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 05:12:48 PM »
Peter,

The water came to 13.20 oz.

Based on what volume of water?  I thought the formula had 1.5 cups of water.  Did that amount get adjusted somewhere in this thread and I miss it?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 05:55:38 PM »
November,

Good point. I don't think you missed anything. I originally took the 1 qt. Pyrex glass measuring cup and filled it to the 1 1/2 c. marking, and then viewed it at eye level with the measuring cup in my hand, as I imagined Y-TOWN does it. The weight on my scale was 13.20 oz. When you posted, I took another measurement on a flat surface at eye level (lower meniscus). There was less turbulence with that method and I got 12.75 oz. That is perhaps a better number from a hydration standpoint. Maybe Richard will tell us more precisely how he measures out the water. The two key numbers I was really after were the weight of the flour and the baker's percent for the honey, which I thought might have been a problem when I started the conversions.

Peter

Offline Y-TOWN

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 08:36:03 PM »
Peter,

What I don't understand are the posts in this series, unless I'm reading them wrong.

GPL said he used the recipe and it worked for him in post #1 - other than the honey and a little more yeast the "revised" recipe is generally similar. The addition of both those items should really help the initial doubling of the dough in an hour or so in a counter rise situation.

In post #3 of this series the recipe did not work for GPL.

I still think the refrigeration of the dough for a few hours slowed the process and caused the problem (or his yeast was dead). The refrigeration had to retard the process for those two hours.

This recipe is for a few hours max at counter rise temps for "emergency dough".  The time for refrigeration is after you've had your pizza and there is dough left over. That's when I refrigerate the residual dough, not before. If it's not been used after 2-3 days in the refrigerator I freeze it.

Thanks again for your time, I have always been curious about the baker's percentages on this recipe.

Richard

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Yet Some More Pizzas
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 10:27:10 PM »
Richard,

I believe you are correct that switching from table sugar to honey and using more yeast causes the dough made using your modified dough recipe to ferment faster than the dough made using the original dough recipe with table sugar. Yeast has a variable preference for different forms of sugar. The yeast can assimilate sucrose (table sugar), fructose, glucose, and maltose. However, to produce gases of fermentation that will cause a dough to rise, it needs simple sugars. Glucose and fructose are simple sugars. There is a small amount of glucose and fructose in the flour (about 0.5%) to get the yeast going, but maltose and sucrose have to go through conversions (hydrolysis) using enzymes to produce simple sugars to feed the yeast and cause carbon dioxide gases to be produced to allow the dough to rise.

Honey is primarily glucose and fructose, with a small amount of sucrose. So, when substituting honey for sugar, the yeast has more glucose and fructose immediately available to it to use. That should cause the dough to rise faster. With the increased amount of yeast in the modified dough recipe, and assuming that GPL did not use cold water, the dough should have risen fairly quickly and with greater volume than a similar dough using mainly sucrose (table sugar). Once a dough ferments quickly with great volume expansion, it is hard to slow it down, even when put in the refrigerator. It's possible that the dough continued to rise even while in the refrigerator for the two-hour period that GPL used. Moreover, it is not inconsistent to use a period of cold fermentation followed by a warm up period for a short-time, or "emergency", dough. That is a situation that was described in relation to a Lehmann NY style emergency dough at Replies 407 and 408 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251. In GPL's case, he used a period of room temperature fermentation, a period of cold fermentation, and a warm-up period. There should have been enough sweetener to sustain the yeast over the entire duration, and the dough should have been usable as an emergency dough.

Peter