Author Topic: Generic Chicago Thin Crust  (Read 61953 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vcb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Chicago
    • Real Deep Dish
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #160 on: November 17, 2010, 04:08:16 PM »
BTB and Norma, your pizzas look great.  I hope I get some nice results like you two have.  The dough is made but is going to get a two day fridge rise out of necessity.   It is quite sticky...I don't like dealing with really wet dough but once the bench flour gets incorporated I'm sure it will be fine.  Unlike with a Neapolitan dough we don't want to be shy with bench flour.  I will be going the peel and stone then peel to preheated pan route with these.  I'll also top to the edge as they do.  I'm using Peter's formula but much thinner.  I went .065 TF.  We'll see Friday night.

Loo

Nice pics, everyone!
I think I definitely need to employ a rolling pin (and consider docking the dough) next time i make a thin crust.
Hand tossing a chicago style thin crust dough got me closer to NY style, but with a crispier bottom, which isn't at all tragic.
I used a pre-made 'arrabiata' sauce in a jar from those 'san marzano' guys who make the white label tomatoes I like.
Does anyone have a favorite recipe or recommend a good pre-made sauce for chicago thin crust?
(I'm sure there's a post somewhere that you can link me to)
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/
http://virtualcheeseblogger.com/


Offline CDNpielover

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 673
  • Location: Sonoran Desert
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #161 on: November 17, 2010, 04:31:28 PM »
^^i've been looking for a good chicago thin sauce, too.  i've been using november's red#2, but it seems more like a NY-style sauce to me for some reason (although i've never been to NYC haha).  It's just a lot sweeter and more fennelly than i'm used to from Minnesota.  Does anyone have a good chicago thin sauce?

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #162 on: November 17, 2010, 04:39:15 PM »
I've just been using the canned Pastorelli sauce and sweetening it with about a teaspoon of sugar and adding some more basil.   I thin it with some water as well.
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline CDNpielover

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 673
  • Location: Sonoran Desert
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #163 on: November 17, 2010, 04:51:32 PM »
haha, what is pastellori sauce?  i moved to (western) canada 10 years ago, and can't get any of this fancy pizza stuff you guys always talk about.  you should see what they try to pass off as "pepperoni" around here.

Offline vcb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Chicago
    • Real Deep Dish
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #164 on: November 17, 2010, 05:20:25 PM »
haha, what is pastellori sauce?  i moved to (western) canada 10 years ago, and can't get any of this fancy pizza stuff you guys always talk about.  you should see what they try to pass off as "pepperoni" around here.


I actually have a can of Pastorelli pizza sauce in my pantry for pizza emergencies when I don't have time to make my own.
I also find it needs some flavor tweaking, Loo!

photo of Pastorelli pizza sauce is attached:
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/
http://virtualcheeseblogger.com/

Offline CDNpielover

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 673
  • Location: Sonoran Desert
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #165 on: November 17, 2010, 05:49:15 PM »
^^yea, they would never sell that in Canada hahaha!

where do you guys get that in the states?  I don't recall ever seeing it in the supermarkets.

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #166 on: November 17, 2010, 06:05:26 PM »
I buy Pastorelli at Target.
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline vcb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 441
  • Location: Chicago
    • Real Deep Dish
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #167 on: November 17, 2010, 06:06:41 PM »
I buy Pastorelli at Target.

Yes, it's also widely available in Chicago. I've picked it up at Jewel-Osco and also at Treasure Island grocery stores.
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/
http://virtualcheeseblogger.com/

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21145
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #168 on: November 17, 2010, 06:47:07 PM »
BTB and Norma, your pizzas look great.  I hope I get some nice results like you two have.  The dough is made but is going to get a two day fridge rise out of necessity.   It is quite sticky...I don't like dealing with really wet dough but once the bench flour gets incorporated I'm sure it will be fine.  Unlike with a Neapolitan dough we don't want to be shy with bench flour.  I will be going the peel and stone then peel to preheated pan route with these.  I'll also top to the edge as they do.  I'm using Peter's formula but much thinner.  I went .065 TF.  We'll see Friday night.

Loo


loowaters,
         
I hope you also get good results.  :)  Interesting that you went much thinner in Peterís formula. I did have extra dough leftover and was able to make two pizzas out of the formula for one 14" pizza. Will be looking forward to seeing your results.  Since you know a lot more about thin crust pizzas, your results will be appreciated.  Thanks for letting us experiment on your thread.

I donít know if anyone on this thread is interested in what sauce I used for my V&N clone, but this is where I posted about comparing what I used at market to the Walmart Brands of Great Value crushed tomatoes and tomato paste.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9744.msg85554.html#msg85554  That sauce does need to be thinned down with water.  Now that cooler weather is in my area, I donít buy any fresh basil, oregano, or even use garlic in my market sauce.  I just use dried Italian seasoning, dried oregano, a little sugar, a little crushed black pepper, a pinch of crushed red pepper, a touch of kosher or sea salt, grated Parmesan cheese, and very small amount of olive oil to my market sauce. This mixture without the grated Parmesan can also be microwaved, even with fresh crushed garlic.  I donít use the Walmart Great Value tomato products for market, but have tested the Walmart Great Value of tomatoes and paste at home with the dried seasoning and it almost tastes the same.

This is what my next attempt at the V&N clone dough looks like after a total of a little over 8 hrs. of room fermentation.  I am going to now reball this dough.  As can be seen on these pictures the dough is sticky now. Each time I reball the dough, it becomes less sticky, but will get sticky again. I think I am going to let it sit at room temperatures more this evening and then refrigerate it overnight.  I will then decide tomorrow how long to let it sit at room temperature again.  I want to be able to have a good crust flavor again.

Best of luck to anyone trying this V&N clone formula.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 06:55:39 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21145
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #169 on: November 17, 2010, 06:54:12 PM »
Nice pics, everyone!
I think I definitely need to employ a rolling pin (and consider docking the dough) next time i make a thin crust.
Hand tossing a chicago style thin crust dough got me closer to NY style, but with a crispier bottom, which isn't at all tragic.
I used a pre-made 'arrabiata' sauce in a jar from those 'san marzano' guys who make the white label tomatoes I like.
Does anyone have a favorite recipe or recommend a good pre-made sauce for chicago thin crust?
(I'm sure there's a post somewhere that you can link me to)


vcb,

In my opinion a rolling pin and docker do help this dough.  I had thought about not docking the dough, but had seen in other experiments I did without any yeast in the dough, it still wanted to rise when put into the oven. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21145
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #170 on: November 18, 2010, 07:59:41 AM »
If anyone is interested this is what my dough ball looks like for my next attempt for a V&N style pizza at home.  I probably will be using this dough ball something today.

Picture 1 Last night after reballing dough ball
Picture 2 This morning how dough ball looks on top after being refrigerated overnight
Picture 3 This morning how dough ball looks on bottom after being refrigerated overnight.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21691
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #171 on: November 18, 2010, 04:08:15 PM »
Every time I view the V&N video, I see something that I missed before. Today, what I picked up is one of the workers using what looks to be a pizza cutter to trim a skin on the peel, at about 4:14 in the video. If you don't blink, you can see the worker peel away the scrap. This leads me to believe that V&Ns may be using only one dough ball size, for the 14", and, to fill an order for a 12" pizza, the 14" skin is cut back to 12". It is possible that the scrap from several skins can be combined and run through the dough roller to make more skins to be used to make more pizzas. This is only a guess on my part but I think the dough is still soft enough to reuse scrap. The scrap might also be mixed into another tub of dough fermenting or waiting to be used. With a dough roller able to form skins with ease, this would be a logical measure.

Everything V&N does seems to defy the rules I follow to make and manage pizza dough. At V&N, the ingredients are measured out by volume without an attempt at great accuracy, the dough is fermented at room temperature with punchdowns as necessary, the dough balls are divided/formed by guesstimating (I'm sure that they are good at this after many years of experience), a ton of bench flour is used at just about every stage, and now it seems that it is possible that they make only one dough ball size and make it do double duty, possibly without throwing away any dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 06:20:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21145
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #172 on: November 18, 2010, 05:34:37 PM »
Every time I view the V&N video, I see something that I missed before. Today, what I picked up is one of the workers using what looks to be a pizza cutter to trim a skin on the peel, at about 1:14 in the video. If you don't blink, you can see the worker peel away the scrap. This leads me to believe that V&Ns may be using only one dough ball size, for the 14", and, to fill an order for a 12" pizza, the 14" skin is cut back to 12". It is possible that the scrap from several skins can be combined and run through the dough roller to make more skins to be used to make more pizzas. This is only a guess on my part but I think the dough is still soft enough to reuse scrap. The scrap might also be mixed into another tub of dough fermenting or waiting to be used. With a dough roller able to form skins with ease, this would be a logical measure.

Everything V&N does seems to defy the rules I follow to make and manage pizza dough. At V&N, the ingredients are measured out by volume without an attempt at great accuracy, the dough is fermented at room temperature with punchdowns as necessary, the dough balls are divided/formed by guesstimating (I'm sure that they are good at this after many years of experience), a ton of bench flour is used at just about every stage, and now it seems that it is possible that they make only one dough ball size and make it do double duty, possibly without throwing away any dough.

Peter

Peter,

I also watched that video at V&N's over and over and tried to pick up different things they might be doing.  As for the formula you set-forth, from the little experience I had with your formula, the dough did look and handle like V&N dough.  When we had to reroll the first pizza dough, it did reroll well, as I could imagine their dough going though the sheeter with leftover scraps, if they do that. The dough I used is very soft.  I am still wondering what that guy has in his right hand around 4:23-4:24 into the video. Edit: After watching that video again, what I had thought was a docker before does now look like a pizza cutter and I could see the pizzaman peeling the skin away.  At least that is what my eyes saw.

I have also watched the dough you set-forth and couldnít imagine it sitting out in the hot kitchen for many more than 24 hrs. and then not overfermenting.  I am wondering if they donít have some kind of cooler they roll the big tubs into either overnight or sometime during the day, so the dough doesnít overferment.  Even after cold fermenting my dough overnight in the refrigerator and watching the extra piece of dough we then used for a second pizza, I saw how fast that dough ball grew.  I wonder if any members that have visited V&N have seen any big walk-in coolers. I have no idea at this time if the real V&N dough can overferment in one day. Since you know more about dough, do you have any ideas on that. They would need something to keep their meat, cheese and other perishables in, so this is just a guess.  I have seen how hot the area around my oven at market is and if I let my dough balls out too long, then there are problems. 

Norma
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 06:22:00 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21691
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #173 on: November 18, 2010, 06:55:30 PM »
Norma,

I noticed that I gave the wrong video time in my last post where the worker is downsizing a skin. I meant to say around 4:14 instead of 1:14. I have corrected the error.

At 4:23-4:24 in the video, I see a young worker with something in his left hand but at 4:25 it looks like he is using a dough scraper to move away some scrap dough.

It's hard to get a feel for the layout of the V&N work area but if you look at 1:24 in the video you will see Rosemary all alone (i.e., without Guy) in a room or section of a room with several tubs of dough, but not the mixer bowl that was covered at 1:17 and pushed aside. Obviously, somewhere along the way the dough in the mixer bowl was put into its own tub. It does not appear that the tubs are near the ovens or kitchen area where it is likely to be quite warm.

I estimated the amount of yeast by eyeball, at about 0:48 in the video. For my estimate, I looked at the size of the yeast container. That container looks to be a translucent or transparent container. I say this because it appears that you can see the tan color of the yeast in the container. But, from the video, it is hard to say whether the yeast container is entirely full. So, there could be less than 1/3 cup yeast. Using less yeast would permit a longer fermentation window while still offering up several punch down opportunities.

Since there are no coolers in sight, we can't say whether the dough is fermented entirely at room temperature. A cooler might be involved at some point, in combination with room temperature fermentation, but there is nothing that I can see in the video to instruct us on that point. That aside, I think there is greater latitude when a dough is to be run through a dough roller in the sense that a dough can be long in the tooth, but not overfermented, and still be able to be run through the dough roller with the help of bench flour. However, from the video, I don't get a sense that the dough is on its deathbed.

Peter
 


Offline CDNpielover

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 673
  • Location: Sonoran Desert
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #174 on: November 18, 2010, 07:08:24 PM »
it's on a TV show, who knows if they're making them the way they usually do.  I imagine they are doing a lot of things out of convenience and/or to accommodate the film crew, etc.

Offline dms

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 163
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #175 on: November 18, 2010, 07:33:39 PM »
Everything V&N does seems to defy the rules I follow to make and manage pizza dough. At V&N, the ingredients are measured out by volume without an attempt at great accuracy, the dough is fermented at room temperature with punchdowns as necessary, the dough balls are divided/formed by guesstimating (I'm sure that they are good at this after many years of experience), a ton of bench flour is used at just about every stage, and now it seems that it is possible that they make only one dough ball size and make it do double duty, possibly without throwing away any dough.

Don't believe what they say.  I wouldn't believe anything about that video except what you see in the make line.  But that sort of dough management is pretty common among shops using a wet dough and a sheeter.  I know one of the thin crust shops near me doesn't divide their dough into balls at all.  They just grab a quantity from the tub it's in, run it through the sheeter a few times, cut it round, dress it, cook it.  I don't know what they do with scraps; next time I'm in I'll watch.  Their dough is a no (the owner's told me) oil recipe.  I don't know anything else about it, except what I can see. I'd guess it's in the high fifties water content, maybe 60. 

I think the trick with this sort of pizza is a sheeter and a hot oven. 

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21145
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #176 on: November 18, 2010, 08:00:46 PM »
Don't believe what they say.  I wouldn't believe anything about that video except what you see in the make line.  But that sort of dough management is pretty common among shops using a wet dough and a sheeter.  I know one of the thin crust shops near me doesn't divide their dough into balls at all.  They just grab a quantity from the tub it's in, run it through the sheeter a few times, cut it round, dress it, cook it.  I don't know what they do with scraps; next time I'm in I'll watch.  Their dough is a no (the owner's told me) oil recipe.  I don't know anything else about it, except what I can see. I'd guess it's in the high fifties water content, maybe 60. 

I think the trick with this sort of pizza is a sheeter and a hot oven. 


dms,

I find you comments very interesting since you know more about thin crust pizzas and also your posting about using a wet dough and no oil in some doughs.  :)

Good to hear you can watch.

Thanks for all of your help and insight.

Norma


I made the second attempt of making a V&N clone tonight.  I forgot to mention in my one other post, that the final dough temperature for this dough I used tonight was 73 degrees F.  This dough ball was left out at ambient room temperatures of 72 degrees F for two hours.  The one picture with the perforated screen, rolling pin, and docker is when I first removed the dough ball from the refrigerator.  The second pictures of the dough ball is when I was ready to roll it out.  I did flour the top of the dough ball, before I took it out of the container.  I also floured the table, where I was going to roll the dough.  The dough rolled out very easily and I could hear the bubbles cracking when rolling.  I rolled until I thought the dough was thin enough, then put the ruler on to measure 12".  Then I used my pizza cutter to cut the extra dough off. The extra dough weighed 107 grams. As can be seen in the one other picture I could pick this skin up easily and then transfer it onto the perforated screen.  I turned on the oven for an hour before I made this pizza with the baking stone on the middle rack position at temperatures of around 500 degrees F.  I then left the pizza bake, until I thought the bottom of the pizza was baked enough and then took it off the perforated screen with my metal peel, and placed it onto the baking stone.

My opinions about how this pizza turned out werenít as good as the V&N attempt at market.  Although I have never tasted a real V&N pizza, I thought this crust wasnít crisp enough.  It was good, but I thought it wasnít right, compared to what I made at market. 

I now have the extra dough and have balled it and am letting it sit at room temperature.  I might try to make another attempt with a V&N clone tonight, but am trying to think how to go about baking it differently, so the bottom will get crisper.  I might try just baking this extra dough on the stone.  If anyone has any idea of how to go about the next bake to get a crisper crust, let me know.

I did take a video of cutting this crust again, but I have problems with trying to hold the camera with one hand and trying to cut the pizza with the other hand.  Also some of my pictures got burry and I donít know why that happened.

Video

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3GkPk5lU58" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3GkPk5lU58</a>


and pictures

Norma

Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21145
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2010, 08:02:45 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21145
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2010, 08:04:26 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21691
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #179 on: November 18, 2010, 08:18:46 PM »
it's on a TV show, who knows if they're making them the way they usually do.  I imagine they are doing a lot of things out of convenience and/or to accommodate the film crew, etc.


That was my thinking also. The video was started in the daytime but we don't know when the dough was actually made. If it was in the afternoon or early evening the dough might safely make it to the next day at room temperature with the proper amount of yeast. I also can't imagine that the crew sat around for eight hours for the Italian beef to finish cooking.

I looked again at the physical arrangement of V&N's and it looks like the area where the dough is made is at the far end of the room shown in the video. At the other end of that space is where the dough is assembled into pizzas and baked. In the middle of the area is where the Italian beef was prepared.

Peter