Author Topic: Generic Chicago Thin Crust  (Read 79527 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #150 on: November 17, 2010, 09:19:30 AM »
Norma,

Like you, I have never had a V&N pizza either so all I could do was to try to come as close to the dough formulation and related methods as best I could divine them from the V&N video and my independent research. This is my standard operating procedure when trying to clone someone else's dough/pizza. Also, when making my clones, I try to make them exactly like the original, to the extent I am able to do that given that I don't always have quite enough information and also giving recognition to the fact that my home setting is going to be different than a commercial setting. I know that there will be differences but I try to identify them and, as appropriate, make adjustments to my home versions.

I also knew from my own experience working with wet doughs that that would be the sticking point (pun intended) with the V&N clone dough. I also learned from discussions I have had with salespersons at Anets and Somerset, both of whom are industry leaders and make dough rounders and sheeters, that such equipment can handle wet, even oily, doughs quite well--something that is likely to be much harder for us to do with a rolling pin. And there is often a lot of bench flour around the equipment when in use. The dough roller that V&N uses looks to be an old workhorse of a machine. If you or others would like to see how the modern versions of dough rollers work, see the video for the Somerset CDR-1550 at http://www.smrset.com/dough-roller-cdr-1550.shtml. The Anets equipment is similar but is now made at the Middleby Marshall facilities since MM acquired Anets about a year ago.  It's hard to tell from the V&N video whose dough roller they are using but I would guess Anets because they have been a fixture in the Chicago area for many years. Giordano's has been a big user of the Anets machines although I was told recently by a Somerset salesman that Giordano's has been switching over to Somerset machines in some of their stores.

In terms of the dough ball weight you might want to strive for next time, you might revisit the V&N video and look at the size of dough balls in Rosemary's and Guy Fieri's hands and see if you can approximate that, even if it means having to adjust the other ingredients down the line if you are able to come close to the actual V&N dough ball weight, especially the hydration. You may have to play around with the skin thickness because it is hard to tell from the video whether the dough balls shown are for a 12" pizza or a 14" pizza.

Peter


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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #151 on: November 17, 2010, 09:30:20 AM »
For those who are interested, if there are problems locating a source of the Ceresota flour, they can use the Heckers flour instead, if that is available. This morning I called the Uhlmann Company, which sells the two flours, and confirmed that they are the same flours. They are just marketed differently. A list of places that ostensibly carry the Uhlmann flours can be seen at http://www.heckersceresota.com/grocers.html. It might help to call a retailer in advance to be sure that they actually carry the flours since lines are dropped all the time in the retail supermarket business.

Peter

Offline BTB

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #152 on: November 17, 2010, 09:38:39 AM »
I wish I could taste a real V&N pizza. 

I just wish I could taste a real V&N pizza to be able to compare this with.

I wonder how I will ever compare if this pizza is something like a real V&N pizza.

Norma, well, here's my suggestion for your next vacation:  Fly into Chicago's Midway airport (not O'Hare) and either rent a car or cab over to Vito and Nick's (a 10 minute cab ride from the airport).  They open early for lunch and you can watch them for a long time making pizzas from the counter area.  They invite questions and customer inquiries and of course bake their wonderful pizzas in their great old fashioned deck ovens (the best).  Get a small size pizza in the bar/restaurant area because I have more recommendations for this trip for you (or anyone interested).
 
After experiencing V & N's great style pie, go about 1 and 1/2 miles away to my favorite, Fox's Restaurant and Pizzeria in Oak Lawn, IL (http://www.foxsrestaurant.com/).  Their pizza is also extra thin crust style also, is very tasty and flavorful, and utilizes anise flavored Italian sausage that is very special and unique.  And they open early for lunch also. 
 
Then travel over to Villa Nova, which many south siders will say is even better than V & N's.  (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/villa-nova-a-neighborhood-institution-the-whole-city-should-discover.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedmeaslice+%28Slice%29).  One should call first as I'm not certain if they are open for lunch, but they are, too, one of the greatest thin crust style pizzas on earth (I'm not prejudice as you can tell).  Some might instead suggest traveling to the 4th great "south side" pizzeria, Palermo's.  This pizza family like V & N's has "split" up and has different family locations.  The original on 63rd St is noted at http://www.palermosof63rd.com/ and the other on 95th St. at http://www.palermos95th.com/ .

Boy, this is a trip I'd like to take myself.  The 4 best south side thin crust pizzas in the Chicago area (opps, forgot Aurelio's in Homewood, but that's much farther to travel in between than the four I mentioned).

                                                                                            --BTB

Offline dms

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #153 on: November 17, 2010, 09:55:37 AM »

The man and woman that tasted a piece of the first pizza we made and then came back to try and buy some pizza weren’t from around my area, but said they come to market a few times a year.  They said my first attempt at the V&R clone tasted exactly like Pete & Elda’s pizza in Neptune, NJ.  They said they really like Pete & Elda’s pizza and can’t find it anywhere else. I wrote down Pete & Elda pizza, so I would remember it when I returned home. I never heard of Pete & Elda’s pizza, so I looked it up on the web.  This is the link to Pete & Elda’s. http://peteandeldas.com/  and the yelp reviews for their pizza.  http://www.yelp.com/biz/pete-and-eldas-bar-and-grill-kitchen-neptune   Maybe Peter created a Pete & Elda’s clone.  :-D

Norma

Pete's much too un-surly to create a proper clone of Pete & Elda's.  The "give us your money and get out of here" attitude is an essential part of the place, I gathered.  I lived a couple miles away for years, and went rarely.  Pizza was okay.  If they bothered to give it you before it was cold, that is, which wasn't a given.  I'd hope they've improved, but wouldn't bet on it.

It's a very thin crispy (while hot, it gets soggy) crust, bland sauce, not a whole lot of cheese (less than you get at most chicago joints; while I know I've been to V&N, I have no memory of the food...).  

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #154 on: November 17, 2010, 10:16:16 AM »
No no, Norma, do land at O'Hare (ORD) and I'll pick you up.

First we can stop at Superdawg then Lou's at Lincolnwood, then I'll take you to the Brown Line Kimball stop and you can make your way down town to Uno's and Gino's if you must then the presidential suite at the Hilton before going on your south side adventure the next day  :angel:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 12:18:57 PM by Mick.Chicago »

Offline norma427

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #155 on: November 17, 2010, 12:06:45 PM »
Norma,

Like you, I have never had a V&N pizza either so all I could do was to try to come as close to the dough formulation and related methods as best I could divine them from the V&N video and my independent research. This is my standard operating procedure when trying to clone someone else's dough/pizza. Also, when making my clones, I try to make them exactly like the original, to the extent I am able to do that given that I don't always have quite enough information and also giving recognition to the fact that my home setting is going to be different than a commercial setting. I know that there will be differences but I try to identify them and, as appropriate, make adjustments to my home versions.

I also knew from my own experience working with wet doughs that that would be the sticking point (pun intended) with the V&N clone dough. I also learned from discussions I have had with salespersons at Anets and Somerset, both of whom are industry leaders and make dough rounders and sheeters, that such equipment can handle wet, even oily, doughs quite well--something that is likely to be much harder for us to do with a rolling pin. And there is often a lot of bench flour around the equipment when in use. The dough roller that V&N uses looks to be an old workhorse of a machine. If you or others would like to see how the modern versions of dough rollers work, see the video for the Somerset CDR-1550 at http://www.smrset.com/dough-roller-cdr-1550.shtml. The Anets equipment is similar but is now made at the Middleby Marshall facilities since MM acquired Anets about a year ago.  It's hard to tell from the V&N video whose dough roller they are using but I would guess Anets because they have been a fixture in the Chicago area for many years. Giordano's has been a big user of the Anets machines although I was told recently by a Somerset salesman that Giordano's has been switching over to Somerset machines in some of their stores.

In terms of the dough ball weight you might want to strive for next time, you might revisit the V&N video and look at the size of dough balls in Rosemary's and Guy Fieri's hands and see if you can approximate that, even if it means having to adjust the other ingredients down the line if you are able to come close to the actual V&N dough ball weight, especially the hydration. You may have to play around with the skin thickness because it is hard to tell from the video whether the dough balls shown are for a 12" pizza or a 14" pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I know you always try to gather all the information you can before setting forth a formula.  You are quite the detective, when it comes to making a pizza you have tried or not tried.  8) It is hard to even clone a pizza that was tasted.

I had some luck with the sticking point of your formula set-forth, as anyone can read below.  Since I really have no idea of how thin this next crust should be, I will roll again and then weigh any extra dough. 

At least I was glad this crust did have a good flavor after playing around with the Ultra-thin thread and those crusts having no flavor.  Steve and I talked yesterday about the pizzas we made and I said this almost was like the pizza I tasted at the New York Restaurant and Pizza Expo, except the crust was a little softer on the real Ultra-Thin pizza.  Maybe my memory isn't exactly right, about the real Ultra-Thin pizzas, but the pies were good yesterday. 

I made another dough ball this morning using the 12" formula you set-forth.  I used my Kitchen Aid professional HD to mix the dough.  I also used whole milk in the formula.  The dough was sticky when finished, but I have since reballed the dough two times. It feels drier now, but probably will get sticky, like my last dough did.  I will take another picture or pictures of how this dough looks during today.  I am going to try and use my home oven to make this pizza.  I will wait until I think the dough looks ready, or might even refrigerate it again and wait until tomorrow, all depending on how this dough ferments at ambient room temperatures of 74 degrees F.  I am going to go to market today to pick up my docker, dark perforated pan, and big rolling pin.  I will see how this pizza turns out in my home setting with my oven.

Picture of how dough looks after reballing twice.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 01:55:42 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #156 on: November 17, 2010, 12:10:39 PM »
Pete's much too un-surly to create a proper clone of Pete & Elda's.  The "give us your money and get out of here" attitude is an essential part of the place, I gathered.  I lived a couple miles away for years, and went rarely.  Pizza was okay.  If they bothered to give it you before it was cold, that is, which wasn't a given.  I'd hope they've improved, but wouldn't bet on it.

It's a very thin crispy (while hot, it gets soggy) crust, bland sauce, not a whole lot of cheese (less than you get at most chicago joints; while I know I've been to V&N, I have no memory of the food...).  
dms,

Glad to hear you tasted a Pete & Elda’s pizza, and could tell how the more about their pizza.  :) It helps to hear someone else describe a pizza I never tasted before.

Thanks,

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #157 on: November 17, 2010, 12:14:53 PM »
 
Norma, well, here's my suggestion for your next vacation:  Fly into Chicago's Midway airport (not O'Hare) and either rent a car or cab over to Vito and Nick's (a 10 minute cab ride from the airport).  They open early for lunch and you can watch them for a long time making pizzas from the counter area.  They invite questions and customer inquiries and of course bake their wonderful pizzas in their great old fashioned deck ovens (the best).  Get a small size pizza in the bar/restaurant area because I have more recommendations for this trip for you (or anyone interested).
 
After experiencing V & N's great style pie, go about 1 and 1/2 miles away to my favorite, Fox's Restaurant and Pizzeria in Oak Lawn, IL (http://www.foxsrestaurant.com/).  Their pizza is also extra thin crust style also, is very tasty and flavorful, and utilizes anise flavored Italian sausage that is very special and unique.  And they open early for lunch also. 
 
Then travel over to Villa Nova, which many south siders will say is even better than V & N's.  (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/villa-nova-a-neighborhood-institution-the-whole-city-should-discover.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedmeaslice+%28Slice%29).  One should call first as I'm not certain if they are open for lunch, but they are, too, one of the greatest thin crust style pizzas on earth (I'm not prejudice as you can tell).  Some might instead suggest traveling to the 4th great "south side" pizzeria, Palermo's.  This pizza family like V & N's has "split" up and has different family locations.  The original on 63rd St is noted at http://www.palermosof63rd.com/ and the other on 95th St. at http://www.palermos95th.com/ .

Boy, this is a trip I'd like to take myself.  The 4 best south side thin crust pizzas in the Chicago area (opps, forgot Aurelio's in Homewood, but that's much farther to travel in between than the four I mentioned).

                                                                                            --BTB

BTB,

I would love to visit Chicago and taste all their different pizzas.  :) I would really like to experience every pizza place you mentioned.  Maybe someday.

Thanks for telling me where all the good pizzerias are.  :)

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #158 on: November 17, 2010, 12:20:55 PM »
No no, Norma, do land at O'Hare (ORD) and I'll pick you up.

First we can stop at Superdawg then Lou's at Lincolnwood, then I'll take you to the Brown Line Kimball stop and you can make your way down town to Uno's and Gino's if you must then the honeymoon suite at the Hilton before going on your south side adventure the next day  :angel:

Mick.Chicago,

You invitation sounds tempting.  I probably can only dream of coming to Chicago.   ::) Lol, the honeymoon suite sounds so funny.  I am not a high class girl, just a plain old country girl.  :-D I would enjoy visiting all those places you mentioned though.   ;D

Norma



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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #159 on: November 17, 2010, 03:23:13 PM »
BTB and Norma, your pizzas look great.  I hope I get some nice results like you two have.  The dough is made but is going to get a two day fridge rise out of necessity.   It is quite sticky...I don't like dealing with really wet dough but once the bench flour gets incorporated I'm sure it will be fine.  Unlike with a Neapolitan dough we don't want to be shy with bench flour.  I will be going the peel and stone then peel to preheated pan route with these.  I'll also top to the edge as they do.  I'm using Peter's formula but much thinner.  I went .065 TF.  We'll see Friday night.

Loo
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 03:25:16 PM by loowaters »
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Offline vcb

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #160 on: November 17, 2010, 04:08:16 PM »
BTB and Norma, your pizzas look great.  I hope I get some nice results like you two have.  The dough is made but is going to get a two day fridge rise out of necessity.   It is quite sticky...I don't like dealing with really wet dough but once the bench flour gets incorporated I'm sure it will be fine.  Unlike with a Neapolitan dough we don't want to be shy with bench flour.  I will be going the peel and stone then peel to preheated pan route with these.  I'll also top to the edge as they do.  I'm using Peter's formula but much thinner.  I went .065 TF.  We'll see Friday night.

Loo

Nice pics, everyone!
I think I definitely need to employ a rolling pin (and consider docking the dough) next time i make a thin crust.
Hand tossing a chicago style thin crust dough got me closer to NY style, but with a crispier bottom, which isn't at all tragic.
I used a pre-made 'arrabiata' sauce in a jar from those 'san marzano' guys who make the white label tomatoes I like.
Does anyone have a favorite recipe or recommend a good pre-made sauce for chicago thin crust?
(I'm sure there's a post somewhere that you can link me to)
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #161 on: November 17, 2010, 04:31:28 PM »
^^i've been looking for a good chicago thin sauce, too.  i've been using november's red#2, but it seems more like a NY-style sauce to me for some reason (although i've never been to NYC haha).  It's just a lot sweeter and more fennelly than i'm used to from Minnesota.  Does anyone have a good chicago thin sauce?

Offline loowaters

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #162 on: November 17, 2010, 04:39:15 PM »
I've just been using the canned Pastorelli sauce and sweetening it with about a teaspoon of sugar and adding some more basil.   I thin it with some water as well.
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #163 on: November 17, 2010, 04:51:32 PM »
haha, what is pastellori sauce?  i moved to (western) canada 10 years ago, and can't get any of this fancy pizza stuff you guys always talk about.  you should see what they try to pass off as "pepperoni" around here.

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #164 on: November 17, 2010, 05:20:25 PM »
haha, what is pastellori sauce?  i moved to (western) canada 10 years ago, and can't get any of this fancy pizza stuff you guys always talk about.  you should see what they try to pass off as "pepperoni" around here.


I actually have a can of Pastorelli pizza sauce in my pantry for pizza emergencies when I don't have time to make my own.
I also find it needs some flavor tweaking, Loo!

photo of Pastorelli pizza sauce is attached:
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #165 on: November 17, 2010, 05:49:15 PM »
^^yea, they would never sell that in Canada hahaha!

where do you guys get that in the states?  I don't recall ever seeing it in the supermarkets.

Offline loowaters

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #166 on: November 17, 2010, 06:05:26 PM »
I buy Pastorelli at Target.
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Offline vcb

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #167 on: November 17, 2010, 06:06:41 PM »
I buy Pastorelli at Target.

Yes, it's also widely available in Chicago. I've picked it up at Jewel-Osco and also at Treasure Island grocery stores.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #168 on: November 17, 2010, 06:47:07 PM »
BTB and Norma, your pizzas look great.  I hope I get some nice results like you two have.  The dough is made but is going to get a two day fridge rise out of necessity.   It is quite sticky...I don't like dealing with really wet dough but once the bench flour gets incorporated I'm sure it will be fine.  Unlike with a Neapolitan dough we don't want to be shy with bench flour.  I will be going the peel and stone then peel to preheated pan route with these.  I'll also top to the edge as they do.  I'm using Peter's formula but much thinner.  I went .065 TF.  We'll see Friday night.

Loo

loowaters,
         
I hope you also get good results.  :)  Interesting that you went much thinner in Peter’s formula. I did have extra dough leftover and was able to make two pizzas out of the formula for one 14" pizza. Will be looking forward to seeing your results.  Since you know a lot more about thin crust pizzas, your results will be appreciated.  Thanks for letting us experiment on your thread.

I don’t know if anyone on this thread is interested in what sauce I used for my V&N clone, but this is where I posted about comparing what I used at market to the Walmart Brands of Great Value crushed tomatoes and tomato paste.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9744.msg85554.html#msg85554  That sauce does need to be thinned down with water.  Now that cooler weather is in my area, I don’t buy any fresh basil, oregano, or even use garlic in my market sauce.  I just use dried Italian seasoning, dried oregano, a little sugar, a little crushed black pepper, a pinch of crushed red pepper, a touch of kosher or sea salt, grated Parmesan cheese, and very small amount of olive oil to my market sauce. This mixture without the grated Parmesan can also be microwaved, even with fresh crushed garlic.  I don’t use the Walmart Great Value tomato products for market, but have tested the Walmart Great Value of tomatoes and paste at home with the dried seasoning and it almost tastes the same.

This is what my next attempt at the V&N clone dough looks like after a total of a little over 8 hrs. of room fermentation.  I am going to now reball this dough.  As can be seen on these pictures the dough is sticky now. Each time I reball the dough, it becomes less sticky, but will get sticky again. I think I am going to let it sit at room temperatures more this evening and then refrigerate it overnight.  I will then decide tomorrow how long to let it sit at room temperature again.  I want to be able to have a good crust flavor again.

Best of luck to anyone trying this V&N clone formula.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 06:55:39 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #169 on: November 17, 2010, 06:54:12 PM »
Nice pics, everyone!
I think I definitely need to employ a rolling pin (and consider docking the dough) next time i make a thin crust.
Hand tossing a chicago style thin crust dough got me closer to NY style, but with a crispier bottom, which isn't at all tragic.
I used a pre-made 'arrabiata' sauce in a jar from those 'san marzano' guys who make the white label tomatoes I like.
Does anyone have a favorite recipe or recommend a good pre-made sauce for chicago thin crust?
(I'm sure there's a post somewhere that you can link me to)


vcb,

In my opinion a rolling pin and docker do help this dough.  I had thought about not docking the dough, but had seen in other experiments I did without any yeast in the dough, it still wanted to rise when put into the oven. 

Norma

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #170 on: November 18, 2010, 07:59:41 AM »
If anyone is interested this is what my dough ball looks like for my next attempt for a V&N style pizza at home.  I probably will be using this dough ball something today.

Picture 1 Last night after reballing dough ball
Picture 2 This morning how dough ball looks on top after being refrigerated overnight
Picture 3 This morning how dough ball looks on bottom after being refrigerated overnight.

Norma

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #171 on: November 18, 2010, 04:08:15 PM »
Every time I view the V&N video, I see something that I missed before. Today, what I picked up is one of the workers using what looks to be a pizza cutter to trim a skin on the peel, at about 4:14 in the video. If you don't blink, you can see the worker peel away the scrap. This leads me to believe that V&Ns may be using only one dough ball size, for the 14", and, to fill an order for a 12" pizza, the 14" skin is cut back to 12". It is possible that the scrap from several skins can be combined and run through the dough roller to make more skins to be used to make more pizzas. This is only a guess on my part but I think the dough is still soft enough to reuse scrap. The scrap might also be mixed into another tub of dough fermenting or waiting to be used. With a dough roller able to form skins with ease, this would be a logical measure.

Everything V&N does seems to defy the rules I follow to make and manage pizza dough. At V&N, the ingredients are measured out by volume without an attempt at great accuracy, the dough is fermented at room temperature with punchdowns as necessary, the dough balls are divided/formed by guesstimating (I'm sure that they are good at this after many years of experience), a ton of bench flour is used at just about every stage, and now it seems that it is possible that they make only one dough ball size and make it do double duty, possibly without throwing away any dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 06:20:50 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #172 on: November 18, 2010, 05:34:37 PM »
Every time I view the V&N video, I see something that I missed before. Today, what I picked up is one of the workers using what looks to be a pizza cutter to trim a skin on the peel, at about 1:14 in the video. If you don't blink, you can see the worker peel away the scrap. This leads me to believe that V&Ns may be using only one dough ball size, for the 14", and, to fill an order for a 12" pizza, the 14" skin is cut back to 12". It is possible that the scrap from several skins can be combined and run through the dough roller to make more skins to be used to make more pizzas. This is only a guess on my part but I think the dough is still soft enough to reuse scrap. The scrap might also be mixed into another tub of dough fermenting or waiting to be used. With a dough roller able to form skins with ease, this would be a logical measure.

Everything V&N does seems to defy the rules I follow to make and manage pizza dough. At V&N, the ingredients are measured out by volume without an attempt at great accuracy, the dough is fermented at room temperature with punchdowns as necessary, the dough balls are divided/formed by guesstimating (I'm sure that they are good at this after many years of experience), a ton of bench flour is used at just about every stage, and now it seems that it is possible that they make only one dough ball size and make it do double duty, possibly without throwing away any dough.

Peter

Peter,

I also watched that video at V&N's over and over and tried to pick up different things they might be doing.  As for the formula you set-forth, from the little experience I had with your formula, the dough did look and handle like V&N dough.  When we had to reroll the first pizza dough, it did reroll well, as I could imagine their dough going though the sheeter with leftover scraps, if they do that. The dough I used is very soft.  I am still wondering what that guy has in his right hand around 4:23-4:24 into the video. Edit: After watching that video again, what I had thought was a docker before does now look like a pizza cutter and I could see the pizzaman peeling the skin away.  At least that is what my eyes saw.

I have also watched the dough you set-forth and couldn’t imagine it sitting out in the hot kitchen for many more than 24 hrs. and then not overfermenting.  I am wondering if they don’t have some kind of cooler they roll the big tubs into either overnight or sometime during the day, so the dough doesn’t overferment.  Even after cold fermenting my dough overnight in the refrigerator and watching the extra piece of dough we then used for a second pizza, I saw how fast that dough ball grew.  I wonder if any members that have visited V&N have seen any big walk-in coolers. I have no idea at this time if the real V&N dough can overferment in one day. Since you know more about dough, do you have any ideas on that. They would need something to keep their meat, cheese and other perishables in, so this is just a guess.  I have seen how hot the area around my oven at market is and if I let my dough balls out too long, then there are problems. 

Norma
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 06:22:00 PM by norma427 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #173 on: November 18, 2010, 06:55:30 PM »
Norma,

I noticed that I gave the wrong video time in my last post where the worker is downsizing a skin. I meant to say around 4:14 instead of 1:14. I have corrected the error.

At 4:23-4:24 in the video, I see a young worker with something in his left hand but at 4:25 it looks like he is using a dough scraper to move away some scrap dough.

It's hard to get a feel for the layout of the V&N work area but if you look at 1:24 in the video you will see Rosemary all alone (i.e., without Guy) in a room or section of a room with several tubs of dough, but not the mixer bowl that was covered at 1:17 and pushed aside. Obviously, somewhere along the way the dough in the mixer bowl was put into its own tub. It does not appear that the tubs are near the ovens or kitchen area where it is likely to be quite warm.

I estimated the amount of yeast by eyeball, at about 0:48 in the video. For my estimate, I looked at the size of the yeast container. That container looks to be a translucent or transparent container. I say this because it appears that you can see the tan color of the yeast in the container. But, from the video, it is hard to say whether the yeast container is entirely full. So, there could be less than 1/3 cup yeast. Using less yeast would permit a longer fermentation window while still offering up several punch down opportunities.

Since there are no coolers in sight, we can't say whether the dough is fermented entirely at room temperature. A cooler might be involved at some point, in combination with room temperature fermentation, but there is nothing that I can see in the video to instruct us on that point. That aside, I think there is greater latitude when a dough is to be run through a dough roller in the sense that a dough can be long in the tooth, but not overfermented, and still be able to be run through the dough roller with the help of bench flour. However, from the video, I don't get a sense that the dough is on its deathbed.

Peter
 


Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #174 on: November 18, 2010, 07:08:24 PM »
it's on a TV show, who knows if they're making them the way they usually do.  I imagine they are doing a lot of things out of convenience and/or to accommodate the film crew, etc.


 

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