Generic Chicago Thin Crust

[CDNpielover]

That was my thinking also. The video was started in the daytime but we don't know when the dough was actually made. If it was in the afternoon or early evening the dough might safely make it to the next day at room temperature with the proper amount of yeast. I also can't imagine that the crew sat around for eight hours for the Italian beef to finish cooking.

I looked again at the physical arrangement of V&N's and it looks like the area where the dough is made is at the far end of the room shown in the video. At the other end of that space is where the dough is assembled into pizzas and baked. In the middle of the area is where the Italian beef was prepared.

Peter

what we need is some 'home video' from the employees making the dough, etc., like the malnati's videos hahah!

[Pete-zza]

what we need is some 'home video' from the employees making the dough, etc., like the malnati's videos hahah!

Perhaps the best Malnati's video--the one that motivated DKM to start the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg88833.html#msg88833--was taken down from YouTube.

Peter

[norma427]

Not to be deterred by last results, because I did have an extra piece of dough to try again, I used the extra dough to make another attempt at the V&N clone.  I had placed the extra dough on top of my one burner on my stove, so it would warm up some more and turned on the oven again. 

This extra dough was also easy to roll and didn’t need as much extra flour.  I rolled it to about 11" round, then docked, put it on my wooden peel, and slide it right onto the stone. There were no sticking issues. It can be seen on the one picture when rolling the dough how all the little bubbles want to form on the edge, before it is rolled big enough for a pizza.

This pizza did get better than my last attempt today.  I think just baking on my stone did make a difference.  This pie was a lot better.

This is another video of me cutting the pie.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uaR4-XMSOA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uaR4-XMSOA</a>

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

last of pictures

Norma

[Ev]

That last one looks alot like what we did at market. Was the flavor the same?
 
 I'm conducting my own experiment now with three balls I made this morning. It's the same recipe that Norma used. The difference is I'm using a different thickness factor for each ball; .06, .07 and .08
 Each pie will be 14", no more, no less, with no left-over dough.

[norma427]

That last one looks alot like what we did at market. Was the flavor the same?
 
 I'm conducting my own experiment now with three balls I made this morning. It's the same recipe that Norma used. The difference is I'm using a different thickness factor for each ball; .06, .07 and .08
 Each pie will be 14", no more, no less, with no left-over dough.

Steve,

The last pizza did look a lot like the pizzas we made at market, but the crust didn’t taste exactly the same.  It was good, but didn’t have that really crispness of the crust at market.   

We have no idea about how a real V&N pizza tastes.  We have to rely on other members that have tried a real V&N pizza to see if they think our pizzas even look anything like a V&N pizza.

It will be interesting to see and hear your results.  I had leftover dough both times in my attempts.  I think your home oven gets higher than mine, so you might get different results.  My home oven doesn’t really get that high. 

Will be interested in hearing if any of your experiments will give results like market and also how you like the taste of your pizzas. Maybe you will find your pizzas will be better in your home oven.  I guess you will be using the 6 in1 tomato sauce for your pizzas.

Best of luck! 

Norma

[Ev]

Actually, I think I'll make a different sauce, maybe something more paste based. I don't really want just a thin crust version of my typical N.Y. style.

[loowaters]

I'd say this is one fine thin recipe.  I had great results following Peter's formula at the top and here's how it broke down with the intention (details of how that changed in the next post) of making 2 12" pies:

Flour (100%):    289.51 g  |  10.21 oz | 0.64 lbs
Water (55%):    159.23 g  |  5.62 oz | 0.35 lbs
IDY (0.28%):    0.81 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.58%):    4.57 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Milk (fresh) (11.48%):    33.24 g | 1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.65 tsp | 2.22 tbsp
Total (168.34%):   487.36 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.076
Single Ball:   243.68 g | 8.6 oz | 0.54 lbs

This received a 50 hour fridge rise only due to an inability to make it any closer to the time I would be using the dough.  The first set of pictures is the first pie out of the oven, a 12" pepperoni.  It was cooked on a preheated stone at 550*.  That's right, I went full blast on my oven. 

I'm doing this kinda quickly and I'm sure I'm leaving info out so if you have questions, please, fire away.

Loo

[loowaters]

I didn't begin to prep the sausage pizza until the pepperoni was out of the oven and I could assess it a bit.  I found immediately that the crust was thicker than V&N's.  I decided to roll this 244g dough ball out one more inch to 13".  That would be a TF of .065.

Again, going quickly so fire away with questions and I'll do my best to answer.

Loo

[CDNpielover]

those look like fine pies loo, especially the crust on that second one (i agree the first one looks a bit too thick).  I wish i was having dinner at your house!   

[norma427]

Loo,

I agree with you that Peter’s formula is one fine thin recipe.  Your pizzas look delicious.    Since I have never tasted a V&N pizza, how did your crust compare with V&N’s crust?  You did a nice job on your clone V&N’s clones.  What did you use for sauce, if you don’t mind me asking? 

Norma

[loowaters]

Thanks for the compliments CDNpielover and Norma, I appreciate it tremendously. 

CDN, the second pizza was right on thickness wise and it was delicious.  I used my own sausage but V&N's sausage from what I remember had a bit more heat than most other Chicago thin joints.  Not flaming heat but a slight lingering heat.  Probably an addition of red pepper flakes.  My sausage worked well, though.

Norma, the second one really isn't far off at all.  I may have cooked it too hot as when I was there back in the summer on a kinda slow evening it took a bit of time to get my pizza.  I think if it was cooked as hot as I did it this evening it would've come out of the kitchen sooner.  This cooked a bit crispier than what I received there, as well.  BTB has mentioned plenty of times that it's not the crispiest crust.  The middle pieces don't hold up well at all.  I also remember the bottom of the pizza being rather light in color.  Mine had a little browning going on but...you know, commercial oven vs. home oven. 

For sauce I concocted a hodge podge for this.  I used a can of Pastorelli with some leftover puree from a can of Malnati tomatoes (made deep dish last week), about 6 oz. of the puree,  1 t sugar, 1 t dried basil, and a couple dashes of garlic powder. 

Loo

[Pete-zza]

Norma and Loo,

To satisfy my curiosity, I conducted my own V&N clone dough experiment yesterday and today, but using a different flour. I hope to report further tomorrow once I have gathered everything together for the report. However, I believe that a more accurate nominal thickness factor may be around 0.057 and even lower when adjusted for the fact that the obligatory bench flour increases the weight of the formula flour. I also believe that the amount of salt in the dough formulations I came up with may be too low. Overall, however, I believe that the total nominal hydration value (formula water and the water component of the milk) is about right (around 66%). I also think that the V&N dough is fermented at room temperature the whole time and can support up to 24 hours of room temperature fermentation, although that may be pushing the outer limits. Because of the preliminary nature of my experiment, I did not take any photos, however I hope to post a revised V&N clone dough formulation tomorrow for the 14" size to allow others familiar with real V&N pizzas to test the new dough formulation should they desire to do so and offer their feedback.

What would also help is to have some feedback from those who have eaten V&N pizzas in describing the character of the finished crust. I have read where patrons often describe the finished crust as cracker like and crispy, but I have learned from my experience making DKM cracker-style pizzas that there are different degrees of cracker-like texture and crispiness. Perhaps BTB, who is familiar with both the DKM and V&N crusts, can clarify the distinctions, if any, since I have never had a V&N pizza.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Loo,

I also like the looks of your pizzas. Did you use Ceresota or Heckers flour? I thought I had picked up a bag of Heckers flour on one of my out-of-town trips but I could not find it in my pantry.

Peter

[loowaters]

Peter, again your work on a project is nothing short of excellent and, as usual, super focused until you iron out all the kinks.  

.057 is really getting down there thickness wise but you could be accurate.  I use a hand held roller with flat roller on one end and rounded pastry roller on the other end.  I use the flat roller but I don't have the best control of uniformity with this tool and I found that the thinner sections of my second pizza, the 13" sausage, was right on.  Of course not trimming the dough to a perfect circle leaves an edge that will blow up a bit more than the inner portions of the crust.  V&N is topped to the edge and I don't remember any type of edge to the pizza besides maybe caramelized cheese and sauce.  I didn't top all the way to the edge like I intended.  I just chickened out for fear of moisture getting around and under and giving me sticky skin problems coming off the peel.  I used semolina as a release helper on the peel.  I'm 99% certain V&N used semolina when I was there.  

Loo

[loowaters]

Loo,

I also like the looks of your pizzas. Did you use Ceresota or Heckers flour? I thought I had picked up a bag of Heckers flour on one of my out-of-town trips but I could not find it in my pantry.

Peter

No, the flour I have right now is just Target's house brand, Market Pantry.  I did get a delivery of two 5 lb. bags of Ceresota today in addition to four cans of Malnati's tomatoes.  Mom helps me out when she wants to see her Grandkids.  I won't let her in without some pizza goodies from home. 

Loo

[norma427]

Loo,

Thanks for explaining about your pie and sauce.  I really don’t know how a V&N pizza is so your explaining how you also had a crisper crust was helpful.  I really liked the crispy crust, even if it wasn’t like V&N’s pizza.  Did you dock your dough? 

Norma

[loowaters]

Norma, I did not dock.

Loo

[norma427]

Norma, I did not dock.

Loo

Loo,

Thanks, I won't dock the next time.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Since we could not find anything in the V&N video to suggest docking, and when I could not find anything about docking at V&N's when I did extensive Google searches, I did not use docking either.

Peter