Author Topic: Generic Chicago Thin Crust  (Read 68362 times)

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Offline Musky

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #280 on: November 24, 2013, 12:06:52 PM »
Here's the formula I followed.  Seems it actually is your formula, Pete, but it came from a Loo post.  This thread is kind of confusing.  There's a post discussing the Vito and Nick's where I think the percentages are one thing for one size crust, and then different for another.  And that's in the same post.  I just use 16 ounces of flour, use the percentages for everything else, chop it in half at rolling time, then roll it out nice and thin trying for 12-14".  Like I said, this one was snap backy.  Was very appealing, though, after the second roll out.  Close to crackery.  Great formula, Pete.  Anything I might have done to make it so snappy, or anything I could do to make it less snappy?

Kevin

Recipe followed: Quote from a Loowaters post.

I'd say this is one fine thin recipe.  I had great results following Peter's formula at the top and here's how it broke down with the intention (details of how that changed in the next post) of making 2 12" pies:

Flour (100%):    289.51 g  |  10.21 oz | 0.64 lbs
Water (55%):    159.23 g  |  5.62 oz | 0.35 lbs
IDY (0.28%):    0.81 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.58%):    4.57 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Milk (fresh) (11.48%):    33.24 g | 1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.65 tsp | 2.22 tbsp
Total (168.34%):   487.36 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.076
Single Ball:   243.68 g | 8.6 oz | 0.54 lbs


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #281 on: November 24, 2013, 02:45:11 PM »
Kevin,

The reason I asked you about the recipe you used is because there was more than one version of the V&N clone dough. But I think I figured everything out.

First, by way of background, the V&N clone dough versions that I came up with are set forth in Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117150.html#msg117150. For details on how I arrived at my numbers, see the preceding post at Reply 119 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117149.html#msg117149.

The loowaters version that you used is the one set forth at Reply 187 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117653.html#msg117653. loo used essentially the same version as I came up with for the 12" size but he slightly modified the amount of yeast (0.28%IDY versus 0.283% IDY) and he slightly reduced the thickness factor from 0.08 to 0.076. Moreover, when time came to make the pizza, loo stretched the skin to 13" instead of 12". That had the effect of lowering the thickness factor to 0.065, as he so noted in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117655.html#msg117655.

When you modified loo's recipe to use 16 ounces of flour, I believe that you ended up with the following formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.58%):
Milk (fresh) (11.48%):
Total (168.34%):
Single Ball:
453.69 g  |  16 oz | 1 lbs
249.53 g  |  8.8 oz | 0.55 lbs
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
7.17 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
52.08 g | 1.84 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.42 tsp | 3.47 tbsp
763.74 g | 26.94 oz | 1.68 lbs | TF = N/A
381.87 g | 13.47 oz | 0.84 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

At a pizza size of 12", the 13.47 ounces of dough would translate to a thickness factor of 13.47/(3.13159 x 6 x 6) = 0.1191; at 14", the corresponding thickness factor would be 13.47/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0875. So, either way, you would have had a somewhat thicker crust than what loo and I used for our formulations. However, we were never able to divine the actual thickness factor of a typical V&N skin for the simple reason that V&N does not weigh out their dough balls and they use a lot of bench flour.

I have never had a real V&N pizza so I am not the best one to ask how to modify the formulation you used to make the crust more or less snappy. What you might do is try either loo's version of the V&N clone dough formulation or one of the V&N clone dough formulations that I came up with. Maybe one of those formulations will give you what you are looking for. You might even discover that you like your version better.

Peter

Offline Musky

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #282 on: November 24, 2013, 03:18:24 PM »
Thanks for that, Pete.  As I've not eaten there, I have no idea.  Really what I'm looking for a is a good thin crust that is reliable and repeatable.  This was darn good, albeit a little hard to work with.  I had to use quite a bit of bench flour and the two rollouts.   

Here's my overall goal.  Every year I have family over for Christmas Eve.  Every year I do a huge spread of appetizers.  High quality seafood, meats, etc.  Costs a fortune.  This year I'm thinking a number of different style pizzas for affordability and something different.  A deep dish, several thin crusts of one or two styles, an American or two, and a couple NY style.

I have a deep dish recipe I'm comfortable with from Loowaters from my previous time here, I'm experimenting with the thin.  I have in my files a recipe for American from Randy that I used with good success, but will research in that thread.  That leaves the NY, which I've never made.  I've been browsing those threads today, which is easier thanks to your compilation threads.  My wife is ordering some KASL as I type this, and NY dough will be the project for this coming week.

Kevin

Offline parallei

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #283 on: February 23, 2014, 10:33:09 PM »
Loowaters' Emergency Thin Crust is always a favorite around here.  So I did a sausage and mushroom pie tonight.

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #284 on: February 25, 2014, 11:17:20 PM »
that looks fabulous!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #285 on: February 26, 2014, 02:35:08 PM »
Loowaters' Emergency Thin Crust is always a favorite around here.  So I did a sausage and mushroom pie tonight.
Oh hell yes...that's a beauty Paul; great job man!!  :chef:

Bob
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #286 on: February 28, 2014, 07:44:37 AM »
Kevin,

The reason I asked you about the recipe you used is because there was more than one version of the V&N clone dough. But I think I figured everything out.

First, by way of background, the V&N clone dough versions that I came up with are set forth in Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117150.html#msg117150. For details on how I arrived at my numbers, see the preceding post at Reply 119 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117149.html#msg117149.

The loowaters version that you used is the one set forth at Reply 187 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117653.html#msg117653. loo used essentially the same version as I came up with for the 12" size but he slightly modified the amount of yeast (0.28%IDY versus 0.283% IDY) and he slightly reduced the thickness factor from 0.08 to 0.076. Moreover, when time came to make the pizza, loo stretched the skin to 13" instead of 12". That had the effect of lowering the thickness factor to 0.065, as he so noted in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117655.html#msg117655.

When you modified loo's recipe to use 16 ounces of flour, I believe that you ended up with the following formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.58%):
Milk (fresh) (11.48%):
Total (168.34%):
Single Ball:
453.69 g  |  16 oz | 1 lbs
249.53 g  |  8.8 oz | 0.55 lbs
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
7.17 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
52.08 g | 1.84 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.42 tsp | 3.47 tbsp
763.74 g | 26.94 oz | 1.68 lbs | TF = N/A
381.87 g | 13.47 oz | 0.84 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

At a pizza size of 12", the 13.47 ounces of dough would translate to a thickness factor of 13.47/(3.13159 x 6 x 6) = 0.1191; at 14", the corresponding thickness factor would be 13.47/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0875. So, either way, you would have had a somewhat thicker crust than what loo and I used for our formulations. However, we were never able to divine the actual thickness factor of a typical V&N skin for the simple reason that V&N does not weigh out their dough balls and they use a lot of bench flour.

I have never had a real V&N pizza so I am not the best one to ask how to modify the formulation you used to make the crust more or less snappy. What you might do is try either loo's version of the V&N clone dough formulation or one of the V&N clone dough formulations that I came up with. Maybe one of those formulations will give you what you are looking for. You might even discover that you like your version better.

Peter

Gave this a shot last night and it turned out a little too chewy and not crispy enough.  I baked on a 475 stone at 450.  I only fermented for 2hrs.  So was it lack of ferment time or heat that attributed to this?  Oil will make it less chewy right?  The hydration numbers just seem really high. I may even drop the water by 5%.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #287 on: February 28, 2014, 08:26:12 AM »
Gave this a shot last night and it turned out a little too chewy and not crispy enough.  I baked on a 475 stone at 450.  I only fermented for 2hrs.  So was it lack of ferment time or heat that attributed to this?  Oil will make it less chewy right?  The hydration numbers just seem really high. I may even drop the water by 5%.
Nate,

I am not sure about the bake temperature but shortening the fermentation time will have many effects on the dough, including the texture of the finished crust. More specifically, there will be less effect of enzymes and acids on the dough that to a significant degree dictate dough rheology and the nature of the gluten matrix. And, unfortunately, there are no short term fixes that will take the place of the biochemical activity that normally takes place over longer periods of time.

Although there were no indications that V&N uses oil in their dough, adding oil in sufficient quantity will make the finished crust more tender and less chewy.

With respect to the high hydration, that is a byproduct of the way the V&N makes its dough. But once a lot of bench flour comes into the picture, which is the practice at V&N, the hydration will drop to the point where the extensibility of the dough is more manageable. V&N could have used a lower nominal hydration to start with and used a lot less flour on the bench, but it is also possible that the fermentation protocol used by V&N resulted in water in the dough being released from its bond such that a fair amount of bench flour was necessary and unavoidable to get the dough to the point where it was more manageable.

Peter

Offline hockman4357

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #288 on: April 12, 2014, 02:02:20 PM »
Loowaters' Emergency Thin Crust is always a favorite around here.  So I did a sausage and mushroom pie tonight.
Can you post the recipe that you follow.  This thread is a little overwhelming to me.  Thanks!

Offline parallei

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #289 on: April 12, 2014, 02:37:22 PM »
Quote
Quote from: parallei on February 23, 2014, 10:33:09 PM
Loowaters' Emergency Thin Crust is always a favorite around here.  So I did a sausage and mushroom pie tonight.
Can you post the recipe that you follow.  This thread is a little overwhelming to me.  Thanks!

The first one in the thread!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6368.msg54574#msg54574


Offline dlofx

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #290 on: September 14, 2014, 10:37:11 PM »
After moving away from Chicago, I have reluctantly come to the realization that I simply cannot find this style of pizza from a local provider no matter how hard I try. I used to work for a place that purchased a Rosati's based recipe and have been on the hunt for something even remotely similar since I moved out of the area. This led me to trying to attempt Loo's very recipe at home tonight with no prior experience making dough of any kind.

What I created was about 80% of what I remember. The toppings were great, cheese was fine, but I definitely did not get the results on the crust I wanted. To test, I did one on the metal pan and one on a pizza stone. I did think the pizza stone better mimicked the snap of the crust. What I struggled with was my dough did rise, but after two attempts, I settled on the lesser of two evils. The first batch of dough, the ADY clumped together which I think means the water was too hot. The second, I used IDY and thought it dissolved well. Yet after 1.5 hours it might have risen about 25%.

I know I got some work to do. I was pretty happy with how it turned out for a first attempt, but it definitely lacked that cracky crust. Perhaps it was the fact I added the milk cold after mixing and letting the yeast sit. Any input would definitely help! Again, I think my issues go back to the yeast as I did all the measurements on a kitchen scale. I've attached pictures to hopefully help.

Offline RacerX

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #291 on: December 01, 2014, 06:55:03 PM »
I have a question about the first post by Loowaters and I apologize that it is so many pages into this thread that I am asking it.  I have read the first ten pages in this thread and still not find the answer.  My question is when is the oil incorporated into the dough?  Or is the oil only used to coat the bowl the dough goes into to rise?  I needed an emergency crust tonight and thought I would use try this crust using twice the amount of yeast and salt like I read Chicago Bob mention.  Since I wanted a crust for tonight, I made one crust each way and I guess it will be obvious which was the correct, but just in case in could help other newbies like myself, it would be nice to know the answer.  Thank you

Offline pythonic

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #292 on: December 01, 2014, 08:17:55 PM »
I have a question about the first post by Loowaters and I apologize that it is so many pages into this thread that I am asking it.  I have read the first ten pages in this thread and still not find the answer.  My question is when is the oil incorporated into the dough?  Or is the oil only used to coat the bowl the dough goes into to rise?  I needed an emergency crust tonight and thought I would use try this crust using twice the amount of yeast and salt like I read Chicago Bob mention.  Since I wanted a crust for tonight, I made one crust each way and I guess it will be obvious which was the correct, but just in case in could help other newbies like myself, it would be nice to know the answer.  Thank you

All the oil goes into the dough.  You can also use a little extra oil to coat the bowl.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #293 on: December 01, 2014, 09:26:55 PM »
I have a question about the first post by Loowaters and I apologize that it is so many pages into this thread that I am asking it.  I have read the first ten pages in this thread and still not find the answer.  My question is when is the oil incorporated into the dough?  Or is the oil only used to coat the bowl the dough goes into to rise?  I needed an emergency crust tonight and thought I would use try this crust using twice the amount of yeast and salt like I read Chicago Bob mention.  Since I wanted a crust for tonight, I made one crust each way and I guess it will be obvious which was the correct, but just in case in could help other newbies like myself, it would be nice to know the answer.  Thank you
For me....I mix dry ingredients together, then I form a sort of well, dump the water in there and then deposit the oil on top of the water.....swish those 2 liquids together and then drag in the flour.
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Offline Garvey

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #294 on: December 01, 2014, 10:24:51 PM »
What Bob said.  I dump all together and turn on the mixer.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #295 on: December 01, 2014, 10:32:28 PM »
What Bob said.  I dump all together and turn on the mixer.
Easy peazzy!   ;D
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Offline RacerX

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #296 on: December 01, 2014, 11:38:12 PM »
Alright, thanks guys!  I saw pythonics' response before I started to bake them and the dough where I just put the oil in the bowl, I kneaded the oil into the dough.  Both crust baked up similar and were very good.

Offline Garvey

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Re: Generic Chicago Thin Crust
« Reply #297 on: December 02, 2014, 09:25:45 AM »
We should rename this forum, "Home of the Thread Necro."

 :D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 09:28:36 AM by Garvey »