Generic Chicago Thin Crust

[Pete-zza]

BTB,

After we had posted, I thought some more about the idea of rehydrating yeast in a brine solution and it hit me that loo's recipe calls for using ADY instead of IDY. I know that fresh yeast and IDY and natural starters are used in Italy, all of which should safely work in a brine solution, but I don't recall whether ADY is used and, if so, how it is rehydrated. Since ADY takes around 10 minutes to rehydrate, I know that I personally would rehydrate in the usual recommended manner and not in a brine solution for that period of time. It might be interesting sometime to rehydrate ADY in a brine solution for 10 minutes to see what impact that has on the final results. I might add that, as somewhat a "cheat", one could increase the amount of ADY on the theory that even if some of the ADY is harmed by rehydrating it in a brine solution for many minutes, there is still enough left unharmed to perform its usual duties. I note that loo rehydates his ADY (1%) in a brine solution for 5 minutes.

Peter

[loowaters]

Yes, I have rehydrated with the brine solution in the past.  Just the Neapolitan influence, I guess.  Lately, when I've made this, I rehydrate the ADY in a small portion of 110* water and have added the salt to the flour and stir that together before bringing it into the water..  Just a Tollhouse Cookie influence, I guess.

I haven't had any problems with the brine and always make sure the salt is fully dissolved.

Loo

[mrmojo1]

last year, i have made 2-3 pizzas a week and put the ADY in brine solution. never an issue, but perhaps ill keep the salt partitioned to the dry ingreds. just to be safe.  i think sometimes i may get a bum ADY packet, but making 6 dough balls at a time with the amount of yeast (little more than 2 packets) odds are there are good yeast in there somehwere i guess.

[mrmojo1]

the local coop had made homeade sweet italian sausage last week.... so i bought like 4 lbs.  used instead of johnsonville.  and these guys hit it. it was a  great sausage.  i was amazed at how much flavor the sausage as it is cooking adds to the whole pizza picture.  it was great!  will keep my eyes open for these guys sausages again!!!  nice to have a change!  loos crust is still the best tho! man!! thank loo!

[bennychuck]

haven't revisited this thread for a little while, but it looks like i opened up a can of worms on the whole ADY in brine thing.  loo, i'm glad you said something about adding the salt in with the flour instead of the water.  i was actually planning on trying this the next time i work with this recipe.  i'll let you guys know if that improves my results at all. 

[mrmojo1]

Made a batch of 6 balls last night.  added salt with the flour instead of to the water.  so the ADY was added to warm water only.  no difference seen on my part as far as the dough rising etc.  just FYI.  looked and tasted the same as all my other batches. 

[CDNpielover]

ok weather is cooling off now, so we're gonna start making pies again.  in the past, i've always used dough balls bought at the italian store down the street.  but i want to make this chicago thin crust.  i see that you give stand mixer instructions... can you guys tell me if I will need a mixer, or can it be done by hand?

thanks

[loowaters]

This could be done by hand just knead it thoroughly and you should be fine. 

Loo

[madjack]

I use a food processor, just pulsed until I get what looks like coarse sand or cornmeal. This takes about 20 seconds total. Then I empty that onto a counter and press it together with my hands into a ball and start kneading. It only takes a couple of minutes to come together into a smooth (but stiff) dough. I don't knead beyond that.


I've been making this recipe almost every weekend, and I am at a loss of how to improve anthing. After much trial and error, the changes I have made from Loowater's original post are:

Substitute milk for about 1/3 of the water, by weight. I use 2% milk.

Use the food processor to mix the dough as mentioned above.

After making the dough I let it sit, covered, on the counter for 2 hours. I then put it into the refrigerator overnight, and remove it 2-3 hours before baking.

I tried several pans and temps. for cooking pies with this crust: perforated pans, aluminum pans, directly on the stone, etc.  By far the best results for me have been to cook on a stone pre-heated for at least 40 minutes at 550 on the bottom rack, in a cutter pan, with the pan placed on the stone.

I'll snap a pic or two of the next one that I make and let some of the experts here offer any advice, but like I said, I am at a loss on how to improve anything.

[CDNpielover]

I tried this recipe for the first time last night.  we made two balls but only used one (will be using the other one tonight).  Unfortunately I didn't get any pics, but will get some from tonight's pie and post them up later.

I doubled madjack's conversion of loowater's recipe (see amounts below).  I followed Loo's original instructions, but used milk in place of 1/3 water.  I let the ADY bloom in the warm (37 C) water/millk/salt solution for about 10 minutes, then added my flour and kneaded by hand for what seemed like a half hour.  As loo noted, there was a ton of flour and the dough seemed really dry and I didn't think it would work, but after rising for 1.5 hours in my oven with the light on, and then resting for about an hour on the counter, i was able to roll the dough out onto floured parchment paper.  cooked the pie on a stone at some random temperature (hot as my oven goes - 500 F or so?) for some random length of time (until it was done - 12 minutes???).

the pie looked and tasted great.  I used used Red November #2 sauce (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136), which is my personal favorite sauce.  we had nice cheese, sausage, pepperoni, green/red peppers. 

the crust was OK, and while it seemed to somewhat mimic the texture of midwest thin crust, it kinda missed the mark for me.  i'm not sure what the problem was, but the bottom mm or so of the crust was really dry and 'bready.'  it was pretty dense and not airy and it almost seemed parbaked, or like a think layer of tortilla on the bottom, if that makes any sense.  the crunchy part was thicker than i'm used to.  maybe my yeast didn't work as well as it should have, or i should have let it rise longer?  I know pictures would help a lot - i'll get some tonight and post them up here.

here is what I used for 2 dough balls:

flour: 18.06 oz
filtered water: 6.013 oz
2% milk: 3 oz
ADY: 1.36 tsp (this is hard to measure - next time i will mass it)
salt: 1.06 tsp

[Pete-zza]

I reworked Loo's original dough formulation to reflect the use of 2/3 water and 1/3 milk. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I ended up with the following, for a single 12" pizza:

All-Purpose Flour (100%): Water (33.3333%): ADY (1%): Salt (1%): Corn Oil (3%): Milk (fresh) (16.6667%): Total (155%):

186.17 g  |  6.57 oz | 0.41 lbs 62.06 g  |  2.19 oz | 0.14 lbs 1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp 1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 5.59 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp 31.03 g | 1.09 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.21 tsp | 2.07 tbsp 288.57 g | 10.18 oz | 0.64 lbs | TF = 0.09

Note: No bowl residue compensation

For two 12" pizzas, the formulation becomes:

All-Purpose Flour (100%): Water (33.3333%): ADY (1%): Salt (1%): Corn Oil (3%): Milk (fresh) (16.6667%): Total (155%): Single Ball:

372.35 g  |  13.13 oz | 0.82 lbs 124.12 g  |  4.38 oz | 0.27 lbs 3.72 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 3.72 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp 11.17 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.48 tsp | 0.83 tbsp 62.06 g | 2.19 oz | 0.14 lbs | 4.14 tbsp | 0.26 cups 577.14 g | 20.36 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.09 288.57 g | 10.18 oz | 0.64 lbs

Note: No bowl residue compensation

For a single 14" pizza, the numbers are:

All-Purpose Flour (100%): Water (33.3333%): ADY (1%): Salt (1%): Corn Oil (3%): Milk (fresh) (16.6667%): Total (155%):

253.4 g  |  8.94 oz | 0.56 lbs 84.47 g  |  2.98 oz | 0.19 lbs 2.53 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp 2.53 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 7.6 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp 42.23 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.45 tsp | 2.82 tbsp 392.77 g | 13.85 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = 0.09

Note: No bowl residue compensation

For two 14" pizzas, the numbers are:

All-Purpose Flour (100%): Water (33.3333%): ADY (1%): Salt (1%): Corn Oil (3%): Milk (fresh) (16.6667%): Total (155%): Single Ball:

506.8 g  |  17.88 oz | 1.12 lbs 168.93 g  |  5.96 oz | 0.37 lbs 5.07 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 5.07 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp 15.2 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp 84.47 g | 2.98 oz | 0.19 lbs | 5.63 tbsp | 0.35 cups 785.55 g | 27.71 oz | 1.73 lbs | TF = 0.09 392.77 g | 13.85 oz | 0.87 lbs

Note: No bowl residue compensation

It should also be noted that not all of the milk contributes to the hydration of the dough. Milk (e.g., 2%) is about 89% water. The rest is fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, etc. These numbers suggest that it might be useful to increase the amount of water and/or milk to get closer to the original 50% hydration. Alternatively, the hydration percent can be increased before apportioning.

For hand kneaded doughs, I would modify the above formulations to use a bowl residue compensation of 2%.

Peter

Note: Edited on 11/14/2010 to include 3% corn oil inadvertently omitted in the dough formulations as originally posted.

[CDNpielover]

OK, I made another pie tonight using my 2nd dough ball from last night, and am back to report results.

for whatever reason, this was a much better pie.  I used A LOT of sauce, cause I like it that way, and there was also a TON of sausage and pepperoni on this, cause we had to use it up.  I cooked it on parchment paper with my stone at about 550 F (according to the dial on my oven).  In retrospect, I should have put a thermocouple on the stone, but oh well, maybe next time.  This cooked in about 8 minutes or so.

When I took the pie out, it seemed like there was quite a bit of grease on the pie - and you can probably see this in the pictures, too.  however, I didn't notice this at all when eating it.

The crust seemed much better tonight.  Still not perfect, but better than what we had last night.  it wasn't nearly as dry and tough on the bottom.  i'm not sure if it's from resting in the fridge for 24 hours, or the extra sauce somehow hydrating the dough, or providing additional thermal arrest, or if I simply had it on the stone for a shorter time.

anyhow, here are some pics.  looking for critiques, criticisms, and suggestions!  thanks!

[Pete-zza]

CDNpielover,

Can you tell us the steps/sequences you followed to make the dough? I am curious what was behind the sub-par performance of your first dough ball.

In general, there are certain penalties that flow from the use of emergency doughs, in terms of crust color, flavor and texture. It takes time for the byproducts of fermentation that are responsible for crust, color and flavor development to be produced. No doubt the longer fermentation time improved the second dough ball and its ultimate performance.

Peter

[CDNpielover]

hey peter,

of course, and thanks for your interest!

I used these measurements:
flour: 18.06 oz
filtered water: 6.013 oz
2% milk: 3 oz
ADY: 1.36 tsp (this is hard to measure - next time i will mass it)
salt: 1.06 tsp

The water was heated to 37 C, mixed with salt and the ADY was added.  I let this sit for about 7 minutes, at which time I heated the milk to like 40-something C, and added that.  In total, the ADY bloomed for about 10 minutes.  I then added about 50 to 60 % of the flour, and "kneaded" the dough for about 7 or 8 minutes.
 
In reality, this was more like pulling taffy (see attached pics), because I just don't see how one could knead something that soft and sticky.  Anyhow, I then tried to knead in the remaining flour, but this is a VERY stiff and dry dough, and I was having a lot of problems just Kneading it, not to mention incorporating all of the flour.  In the end, I was basically "folding" in the flour, and folding over the dough and trying to knead it out over and over.  in all, i think i kneaded by hand for about 20 or 25 minutes.  there was still some flour that didn't make it into the dough - can't remember how much exactly. 

This ball was put in a oil-coated bowl, which was put in the oven with a bowl of hot water and the light on for 1.5 hours.  Then, the ball was cut in half and allowed to rest at room temp for 45 to 60 minutes, and then was rolled out on flour to assemble the pie.  the 2nd dough ball was stored in the fridge for 24 hours.

[mrmojo1]

great looking pizza pielover!!!!  the crust looks really good!  i am curious about your using parchment paper.  mine go directly on the stone!  also it look like you are using fresh mozz.  i find that adds a lot of moisture...water to the crust.  i usually use a whole milk mozz that i shred.  and i think most places use the lower moisture shredded cheese!  but whatever works for you is most important. also because your cheese was the fresh mozz the toppings were mostly on top and that may account for the greasiness that is most often hidden under the cheesei find loos dough gets better and better with age. i think the additional rise time helps the denseness but after about 5 days there is a great yeasty beer flavor that make such a great crust!!!

[CDNpielover]

thanks for the comments, mojo!  i just use parchment paper because I don't have a paddle, and I always have a tough time sliding my pie off my massive cutting board and onto the hot stone.  i've had a lot of mess-ups where I accidentally fold the pie, or half the toppings slide off onto the stone, etc.  haha.  I find that if I assemble the pie on parchment paper, I can just slide the whole thing off really nicely onto the stone.  The paper chars if it's not covered by the pie, so I cut it to fit the stone.  and I don't mind the char anyhow

thanks for your comments on the cheese.  I've used shredded and balls in the past, and you're right that the balls do add a lot of water to the pie.  the center of this one was REALLY moist, but to be honest i kinda like the center slices a bit soggy   I'll try shredded cheese next time, though, and see what I think.  is there a target MC you would suggest?

[Pete-zza]

CDNpielover,

Earlier in this thread, starting at Reply 75 and ending at Reply 85, there was a series of posts addressing the best way of rehydrating the ADY. At the end of that series of posts, I think we all pretty much agreed that the ADY shouldn't be rehydrated in the water along with the salt. It's hard to say whether the way you rehydrated the ADY in the salt/water might have affected the performance of the ADY in your case, but I think you may want to read the above posts and be guided by the advice rendered therein in your future efforts using Loo's basis recipe.

Hand kneading a dough that is fairly low in hydration can sometimes be difficult. A while back, at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786, I set forth the steps I typically follow when kneading doughs by hand. Not all of the steps described in Reply 65 will apply in your case, but I think you will identify the steps that most pertain to your situation and that will allow you to make the dough without its sticking to your hands as shown in your photos.

Peter

[CDNpielover]

thanks so much pete, will follow this advice on my next balls!

[mrmojo1]

thanks for the comments, mojo!  i just use parchment paper because I don't have a paddle, and I always have a tough time sliding my pie off my massive cutting board and onto the hot stone.  i've had a lot of mess-ups where I accidentally fold the pie, or half the toppings slide off onto the stone, etc.  haha.  I find that if I assemble the pie on parchment paper, I can just slide the whole thing off really nicely onto the stone.  The paper chars if it's not covered by the pie, so I cut it to fit the stone.  and I don't mind the char anyhow

thanks for your comments on the cheese.  I've used shredded and balls in the past, and you're right that the balls do add a lot of water to the pie.  the center of this one was REALLY moist, but to be honest i kinda like the center slices a bit soggy   I'll try shredded cheese next time, though, and see what I think.  is there a target MC you would suggest?

hey pie lover, i think people on this site have recommended Stella.  i cant get it here in Idaho.  i get a whole milk mozz from albertsons.  it is ok.  a lot of pizza places do a 50/50 part skim to whole milk, some all part skim, i never found the melt of the part skim to my liking,  but 100% whole milk that i shred has always reflowed nicely with good coverage and creamy wonderful taste!!   

[mrmojo1]

just saw a segment on the foodnetwork.  Guy Fieri?   ...dives diners etc. best of whatever...... went to vito and nicks in chitown... he made dough with one of the owners(they also made italian beef...dont get me started)....they use milk in the pizza dough. if some one can find the clip....im sure you guys will figure out the recipe..anyone else see it?  why  milk??? is it for flavor?  the pizza looked fabulous. the crust is one i would like to have in then arsenal!  thanks!