Author Topic: New York Pizza Definition  (Read 16484 times)

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Offline Randy

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Re:New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2003, 12:55:11 PM »
Dave, actually what happened is you fed the yeast to death.  I mix the sugar in the 120F water then add it to half the flour mixture with the yeast mixed in with the flour per SAF’s recomendation.  If proofing use around a tablespoon.  I never proof anymore.

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Offline DKM

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Re:New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2003, 02:44:39 PM »
Have any of you tried making a sponge and letting it age for a day or so?

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Offline Randy

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Re:New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2003, 04:16:32 PM »
Yes I have but I thought the taste too yeasty, but a lot of people like that taste.  I look for a sweet taste before the yeast produces alcohol.  That is why I prefer a long cold retard.

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Offline DKM

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Re:New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2003, 03:53:33 PM »
I like both.  Think I will try leaving the sponge for about an hour and then retard the dough after mixing.

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Offline Steve

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Re:New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2003, 11:51:37 AM »
(taken from http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003winter/pizzatypes.shtml)

New York Style

New York style pizza can be traced back to the 17th century when Spanish soldiers were occupying the area around Naples, Italy. One of their favorite snacks was a soft, crispy dough with toppings that the Neapolitans called sfiziosa. Like local New Yorkers who fold their slices in half and eat while walking, these Spanish soldiers folded the flat bread into a libretto (little book) and ate it with their hands. One of the main characteristics of New York style pizza is its thin, chewy crust, but that isn't everything that defines New York style pizza. Many might say that it's not New York style unless it leaves those yellow trails of oil running down your elbow when you eat it. This comes from the high butter fat cheese they use. Big Dave Ostrander says most New York pizzerias use Grande mozzarella cheese to get this trait. For New York style, fresh mozzarella isn't an option...it's a rule. Many are hearth or deck oven baked and the sauce is usually thinner than most sauces with fewer ingredients added. The dough is made with high protein, high gluten flour (usually 13.5 to 14.5 percent protein) and is slightly chewy. There is an old urban legend that you can only produce New York pizza in New York due to the hard water they have. While it is true that New York has hard water, it is debatable as to whether this is the secret ingredient.
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Offline canadave

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Re:New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2003, 11:30:36 AM »
I'm not so sure about the validity of some of that.  For instance, regarding the "fresh mozza isn't an option...it's a rule" thing: The local pizzeria near me (Joe's Pizza on Bleecker--long considered one of the best in NYC) recently introduced a "fresh mozzarella" version of their normal pizza; the normal pizza was just like any other NYC pizza.  So this implies to me that the normal NYC pizza uses regular cheese like everywhere else--which makes sense to me, given that I can't taste much of a difference in the cheese.

Second of all, I'm not so sure the water thing is a myth.  I read somewhere where these two guys won a national pizza competition from somewhere out West, and were asked the "secret".  They said they imported New York tap water and used it to make their pizzas; they were very much of the opinion that it gave it that special taste.

I will also say that when I make pizzas using water from my bathroom sink, and from my kitchen sink, I get two entirely different tastes.

For what it's worth, Lombardi's in New York was the first pizzeria in the USA (in 1905) and I've eaten there...it is absolutely a "must stop there and eat" if y'all ever get to go to New York! :)

Cheers,
Dave

Offline Randy

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2005, 10:32:33 AM »
I was going through some old post and found this thread and thought others would find this interesting from the first days of this forum.

Randy

Offline fearghail

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2005, 04:10:05 PM »
The water thing is definitely not a myth.  I am an Environmental Engineer (a specialist in sanitation); I'll give you the run down from that perspective. The secret to NYC water is that it is not processed the same way that the rest of the country's water is.  Where the rest of the country's water supplies are treated with chemicals such as chlorine and alum, the sheer mass of water required for NYC dictates that it can only be processed through a natural process of sedimentation.  The water that you recieve in NYC is essentailly straight from the lake.  If you want NYC style water, go down to your local reservior (especially if you live in the Catskills), get in a boat, go out about 50 yards off shore, sit for a few minutes to let anything that you may have dragged along with to settle, then fill your bottles up with water from about one inch below the surface.  This will give you relatively clean water.  I would not suggest drinking it (unless you're Dave, who has been drinking untreated water his whole life and has built up an immunity to the stuff living in the Catskill reserviors), but the temperatures that you cook pizza at will kill anything that might be left. 

Offline Nathan

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2005, 11:24:49 AM »
That sounds pretty disgusting to me (http://tinyurl.com/dvejr)

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Offline Nathan

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2005, 11:45:29 AM »
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor says:

"It is all just a myth. Any good source of water will work just fine for making your dough. If your local water is naturally soft (like in Oklahoma City/Norman Oklahoma) or already softened by the local municipality, all you will need to do is to add a product called "mineral yeast food" while the name suggests something else, this is really just a water conditioner and it works well. It is available from ANY bakery ingredient supplier. Those wooden boxes, they harbor lots of bacteria. Good stuff in this case (lactobacillus). We used to have it many years ago in the baking industry when we also used wooden dough boxes. But now they're made out of steel and the bacteria has to be added if it is to be present. Lactobacillus is the same group of bacteria used to make cheese and yogurt products, it is also one of the bacteria responsible for sour dough flavors. Pretty neat stuff. My personal advice, don't worry about the water, get a good wood burning or hearth oven and make some great pizzas. Let me know if you still want that water. I can arrange for a tanker to deliver in 7,000 gallon quantities. How does $15.00 a gallon sound? I'm betting that you can get your water locally a lot cheaper...and it will work just as well. But, if you insist, let me know."
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 01:58:51 PM by Steve »
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Offline Nathan

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2005, 11:46:29 AM »
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor says:

"Yep, it's only a myth. There are some differences in water quality (all within "normal" potable water specifications) that can have a slight affect upon the condition of the dough. For example, very soft water can make your doughs a little softer, not to worry though, a little calcium sulfate will fix that in a blink. Then there is an issue of nutralization of the chlorine. If the water is over nutralized it can result in slightly basic (caustic) water. This can result in slightly longer fermentation times than normal. Again, not to worry, a little vinegar in the dough will fix that. So, here's what I suggest you do, get a water report on your New York water, then get a water report on the new water source, compare the hardness and pH (acidity) of the two waters, if they're similar, not to worry, they'll perform the same. If you have any questions regarding the water reports or comparing them, in most cases you can arrange to meet with a person from the city water department to review the two water reports with you and explain the differences or magnitude of difference between them."
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 01:59:17 PM by Steve »
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Offline quidoPizza

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2005, 09:17:34 PM »
there is NO QUESTION !!!!!!!! NEW YORK WATER. THE REASON  the pizza is very high quality. as well for nyc bread.. the bakeries in the bronx delivery up to 250 miles away every day.  this is well known in the bronx. plus you have to be a good baker.ther are about 3 different styles of ny pizza. 1 , about a 20-24 inch pie that uses about 2 1/2 lb's of dough = large slice with grande cheese and any topping you can think of.  one slice is a meal.  and if made right is very good.  2, the old italian style of a very thin pie @16 inches. @20oz. of dough lite cheese and cooked sauce.   or the even harded to find 1/2 inch thick sicilian slice. cooked in a tray 3 just the crappy pizza joint that uses the cheapest ingredents. in many poor areas that use 3 1/2 pounds of dough . and the slice feeds the whole family.  the funniest thing . is many places that turn out fairly bad pizza. make good business. but the people in the know will only eat at good shops.  i worked for this guy once and he was very busy. and the pizza was pretty good. but the sicilians were like eating lead. we did about 50 sic. pies a day. and i would try to let the dough rise correct before cooking the shells. but no this guy didn't care . he was so busy. he would put about 20 un risen shells in the oven at once. talk about belly bombers. but they sold. go figure... the stories i could tell... john

Offline tjacks88

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2005, 09:27:21 PM »
I grew up in New Jersey, where NY Style is also made pretty much the same way. (My grandparents lived in NY city, my mom grew up there). I never knew there was any other type of pizza until a thing called Pizza Hut opened in our town - it was terrible and no one went to it. You might as well open a Taco Bell in Mexico. Each town had several Italian pizza parlors, as they were called. You ordered a slice or a pie. I never saw anyone ever eat pizza with a fork, and you always folded your slice when you ate it, to keep the sauce and cheese from rolling off. Friday night we would usually order a pie, some mussels in marinara, and some shells (pasta for those who don't know). First dates were usually spent having a slice with your girl. The pizza parlor was where you would see your friends, family, and those who had several gold chains around their necks with names like Joey, Tommy, Mikey, Jimmy, Guido:)
For me, NY Style pizza is not only the pie, but the whole experience, which I really didn't appreciate until I moved away from home and couldn't find it. I have spent several years in Italy as well, and although Napolitan pizza is different, I enjoy it just as much.
As long as good people, like those on this board, keep trying to keep the NY Style pizza experience alive future generations will be able to enjoy what many of us have been able to as well.

Offline summitoker

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2005, 12:00:33 PM »
standard cheese mix for NY pizza is 2 parts pollyo part skim mozz, 1 part pollyo whole milk mozz. Hands down the best mix.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2005, 10:55:29 AM »
summitoker,
Interesting observation.

Is that cheese mix for typical NY street pizza or your favorite pizzeria? I prefer a a classic NY Margherita pizza with fresh mozzarella, basil, OO, and red sauce.

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Offline summitoker

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2005, 10:47:09 AM »
well, that is my favorite mix, comes from a old pizza place in ny, carellis,that closed long ago. can also be reversed. i also have a most amazing commercial size dough recipe from the same place if anyone is in need.
definatly not for a marg, you got that right.

Offline scott r

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2005, 11:50:16 AM »
please post your recipe, and welcome to the forum!  I think everyone here is always interested in finding out about what good old New York pizzerias used for dough recipes.  I am sure Peter will jump in and resize your recipe to a single doughball or whatever size batch you might be interested in.

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2005, 03:27:47 AM »
Great new York pizza is all about quality and the knowledge of nuance in the execution of the art of the craft. True New York Style pizza that makes the great category should have a tapered crust. Thiner in the center and gradually thickening up to the edge crust. This is nuance and can best be achieved by the spinning of the dough. There is a difference between tossing and spinning. Tossing for all intents and pourposes is for show and does not accomplish much in the pizza making aspect.  The tapering of the crust that spinning will create saves time increases production and over all quality.  Spinning the dough at a high rate of speed will let the centrifugal force stretch the dough evenly as applied physics will do by nature. Then "stalling" the fall of the dough on the back of your fist as the dough falls will thin it evenly from the center out to the edge of the crust. This creates the tapper. If your dough is right you then will get crisp foldable slice that will not droop even with ten toppings on the pie that is so legendary. The true secret to this begins with creating a good dough pug or rolling a good dough ball that is tight and even to start with. Please see pictures below. 

By the way the right pizza dough recipe will make a great water bagel or soft pretzel that will stand up any where around the city.
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Offline hipchef

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2005, 07:20:58 PM »
Hi Dave, You hit the nail on the head. The sauce is sweeter because it used to be homemade. I don't know about now. The dough is basic. The cheese used to be Scamoza, and the quality of the topping are the best New York has to offer. I grew up in Connecticut and have had good pizza all the way up the turnpike to New York.........................Ciao.............Bill

Offline giotto

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Re: New York Pizza Definition
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2005, 09:00:51 PM »
Well, one thing is for sure... NY does not hold rights to the only purified water in the U.S.  There's tons of it available at any local store in the U.S. these days, and there are plenty of excellent purified water stores in local neighborhoods... we all have mountain spring water available at our finger tips as well.  I'm drinking some mountain lake water right now, and I have natural springs water as well.. There's plenty of choices available to all of us. 

I was happy to see Tony Gemignani in his recent book ( http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1909.0.html ) spent no more than 1 paragraph on the subject as he deported water accordingly. 

I have to admit though, I wish that I could make any style of pizza by getting access to their purified water system, and maybe even the pipes that go into Totonno's.

As for cheese, we certainly know from all the posts that there is no one single cheese employed in New York.  Di Fara's, for example, mixes 75% mozzarella di bufala from Casapulla, just outside Naples, and 25% full fat Grande Mozzarella.  He also mixes his flour 75% 00 from Italy with 25% American high gluten, and he uses Marzano tomatoes, along with his herbs. 

Just as preferences vary widely in New York pizza among the consumers, so obviously do the ingredients and processes by which they follow. 

Bottom line: When Di Fara's mixture is divulged in American Pie, or other secrets are revealed by the World Pizza Champion team and Tony Gemignani, are we now in a position to produce exact replicas?  NO, because the only statement that can hold true as a standard for any pizza in the world, as well as for ALL of us, is the one that Chris Bianco stated in American Pie... the secret is in ME. And here's a guy out in the middle of the desert who is widely acclaimed for his attitude to do business locally from farmers and others, whenever possible. 

By making pizza at home, we too have the exact opportunity as Bianco or DeMarco to find ingredients that meet our exact taste buds, which in some cases may be in our own back yard... including the water.


 

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