Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina

[dannwk]

I further studied what I did in connection with the crust formulation in Reply #19 above.   Today --  after learning much here on this site -- I would figure out the recipe differently and would not enter a semolina figure in the deep dish calculation tool anymore as I did back then.  However, that earlier formulation still works fine and gives great results as the pictures show.  Peter, you are right on your calculations.  My figures just yesterday in Reply #130 above were a little mixed up (bad memory or damn scotch) and I'll further revise them herein.

What I did back 18 to 24 months ago was enter 25% semolina in the deep dish calculation tool itself, which in that formulation resulted in the all-purpose flour weight of 177.58 grams and semolina flour weight of 44.39 grams.  I misinterpreted Peter's comments back then and subtracted the 44.39 grams from the 177.58 grams resulting in the reported 133.19 grams, which provided for a fine pizza but resulted in the proportions being way out of wack.  Further, by entering 25% (or any other figure) in the deep dish calculation tool itself, Peter you indicated that that results in changing the weights and throwing the other ingredients out of wack, too.  Blending of the flour "outside" the tool (meaning calculating outside the tool) seemed to show a more preferable way to go and does not result in changing the weights of all the other ingredients.  At least that's one point of view.

So, the way I do this exact formulation today -- and I think in all subsequent formulations in the thread -- is as Peter indicated in his first example.  For a 9" diameter deep dish pizza, with the dough pushed up approx. 1.5" up side of pan, a TF of 0.125, and bowl residue of 1.5%, the tool results would show:

Flour (100%):  202.88 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (47%):  95.35 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.17 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  37.53 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.34 tsp | 2.78 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):  1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (175.45%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875

After getting this result with the deep dish calculation tool, if one wanted a proportion of the flour to be 25% semolina flour, you would do the calculation thusly:  202.88 grams of flour, 25% = 50.72 grams (1.79 ounces) and the 75% remainder would be 152.16 grams (5.37 ounces) of AP flour.  And by doing it this way, none of the weights of the other ingredients changes, making it -- believe it or not -- less complicated if you wanted to change the proportion of semolina or other flours in subsequent recipes.

Parenthetically, I no longer use cream of tartar as an ingredient as in this formulation.  Such was noted elsewhere as a dough conditioner and reportedly used in some of the Chicago pizzerias (like Gino's East).  After some experience with it, I couldn't see the value of its addition.  I occasionally add a half tsp of Baker's NFDM instead, but that is also not essential.

All this is making me hungry.  I think I'll head for the kitchen . . . .                      --BTB

Ok I'm not sure if I am understanding this correctly...I am trying to convert this to a 14" pan. Can someone who understands this alittle better than I obviously do please see if this looks right. Am I seeing this correctly that there is no salt in the recipe, I have had problems in the past with tasteless crusts and am anxious to try this recipe

Flour (100%): Water (47%): ADY (.7%): Olive Oil (6%): Corn Oil (18.5%): Butter/Margarine (1%): Sugar (1.5%): Cream of Tartar (.75%): Total (175.45%):

428.3 g  |  15.11 oz | 0.94 lbs 201.3 g  |  7.1 oz | 0.44 lbs 3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp 25.7 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp 79.24 g | 2.79 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.87 tbsp | 0.37 cups 4.28 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp 6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp 3.21 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp 751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

then useing the 25% semolina flour conversion the flour goes to 308.38g AP and 119.92g Semolina or 10.88 OZ AP and 4.23 OZ Semolina

[Pete-zza]

danwk,

Is your 14" pan straight-sided or sloping-sided and, if the latter, what are the top and bottom diameters? 

I will leave to others the matter of including or excluding salt for the particular dough formulation, and its recommended amount if included, but it is easy to add salt to the dough formulation if you would like to do that. That will change the numbers a bit but not materially. What type of salt would you plan to use?

Peter

[dbgtr]

BTB, I've been reading through this thread and would like some clarification on your methodology.  In your instructions, you say: 

I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen.  Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.  After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours.

Am I to understand that you mix the flours, and salt and ADY proofed in the water and do a preliminary mix and set it aside for 25 minutes and then add the withheld 1/4C of KAAP along with the oil and butter and mix for 1 minute?  So you are hydrating the flours prior to adding the oil?  I'm not questioning the methodology just want to be clear about your procedure before I make up a batch.

Thanks.  Your pies look fantastic!

All the best,

David

[dannwk]

danwk,

Is your 14" pan straight-sided or sloping-sided and, if the latter, what are the top and bottom diameters? 

I will leave to others the matter of including or excluding salt for the particular dough formulation, and its recommended amount if included, but it is easy to add salt to the dough formulation if you would like to do that. That will change the numbers a bit but not materially. What type of salt would you plan to use?

Peter

thanks for the reply, its a straight sided pan, and for salt I only use mortons Kosher

[Pete-zza]

dannwk,

You correctly recited the dough formulation for your 14" x 2" deep-dish pan. However, your apportionment of the all-purpose flour/semolina blend is incorrect if you wish to use 25% semolina. I calculate the apportionment as 321.23 grams (11.33 ounces) all-purpose flour and 107.08 grams (3.78 ounces) semolina.

I did a quick scan of this thread and noted that at times BTB specified salt at 0.50% but, on other occasions, he omitted the salt. He also stopped using cream of tartar. If you wish to reinstate the salt (using Morton's Kosher salt) and leave out the cream of tartar, the modified dough formulation as produced using the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html looks like this:

All-Purpose Flour/Semolina Blend* (100%): Water (47%): ADY (0.70%): Morton's Kosher Salt (0.50%): Olive Oil (6%): Corn Oil (18.5%): Butter/Margarine (1%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (175.2%):

428.91 g  |  15.13 oz | 0.95 lbs 201.59 g  |  7.11 oz | 0.44 lbs 3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp 2.14 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 25.73 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.72 tsp | 1.91 tbsp 79.35 g | 2.8 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.88 tbsp | 0.37 cups 4.29 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp 6.43 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp 751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

* The all-purpose flour/semolina blend comprises 321.68 grams (11.35 ounces) all-purpose flour and 107.23 grams (3.78 ounces) semolina flour
Note: For a straight-sided 14"x 2" deep-dish pan with the dough pushed up the sides of the pan by 1 1/2"; nominal thickness factor = 0.125; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As you can see, adding a bit of salt and omitting the cream of tartar has little effect on the numbers. Of course, if you would like to increase or decrease the salt from 0.50% and to reinstate the cream of tartar, the changes are easy to make. You have already demonstrated that you know how to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool.

I hope you will let us know how things turn out, including the final dough formulation you decide upon. Photos would also be welcome.

Peter

[dbgtr]

One other question, BTB's formulation generally uses no salt, but I see a few posting with .5% salt in the formulation.  Can folks comment on the use of or not of salt in this recipe?  Thanks, --db

[Pete-zza]

db,

The Malnati's basic deep-dish dough, which apparently was the springboard for BTB's dough formulation with semolina, includes no salt, as noted in the ingredients list at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7467.msg64252/topicseen.html#msg64252. However, some members prefer some salt in their crusts. When I tried DKM's version of the Malnati's deep-dish dough, which also omitted salt, I personally preferred some salt.

Peter

[tikidoc]

I made a variation of the Malnati's dough tonight but did a double crust like Giordano's and it worked out great!

I used the following recipe to make 2 9" pizzas and a 14".  I used AP flour, the Eagle Mills high fiber stuff (http://www.biteofthebest.com/eagle-mills-all-purpose-flour-made-with-ultragrain%C2%AE/).  I had vegetable oil on hand but woulds try corn oil next time.

For the 9" pizzas:

Flour (100%):    703.07 g  |  24.8 oz | 1.55 lbs
Water (47%):    330.45 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
IDY (.8%):    5.62 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Salt (0.75%):    5.27 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
Olive Oil (3%):    21.09 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.69 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (15%):    105.46 g | 3.72 oz | 0.23 lbs | 7.74 tbsp | 0.48 cups
Butter/Margarine (3%):    21.09 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.46 tsp | 1.49 tbsp
Semolina (20%):    140.61 g | 4.96 oz | 0.31 lbs | 13.47 tbsp | 0.84 cups
Total (189.55%):   1332.68 g | 47.01 oz | 2.94 lbs | TF = 0.1827
Single Inner Ball:   512.57 g | 18.08 oz | 1.13 lbs
Single Outer Ball:   153.77 g | 5.42 oz | 0.34 lbs

And the 14":

Flour (100%):    700.72 g  |  24.72 oz | 1.54 lbs
Water (47%):    329.34 g  |  11.62 oz | 0.73 lbs
IDY (.8%):    5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.86 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Salt (0.75%):    5.26 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Olive Oil (3%):    21.02 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.67 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (15%):    105.11 g | 3.71 oz | 0.23 lbs | 7.71 tbsp | 0.48 cups
Butter/Margarine (3%):    21.02 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.45 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
Semolina (20%):    140.14 g | 4.94 oz | 0.31 lbs | 13.43 tbsp | 0.84 cups
Total (189.55%):   1328.22 g | 46.85 oz | 2.93 lbs | TF = 0.1827
Single Inner Ball:   1021.7 g | 36.04 oz | 2.25 lbs
Single Outer Ball:   306.51 g | 10.81 oz | 0.68 lbs

I used the recipe VCB posted to make the sausage, using ground pork from the grocery.  I was in a hurry and all their Italian sausage was frozen, so I just mixed the spices with the meat.

    * 1 1/2 teaspoons salt
    * 3 1/2 teaspoons paprika
    * 2/3 teaspoon garlic powder
    * 2/3 teaspoon fennel seed
    * 1 teaspoon ground black pepper
    * 1/4 teaspoon red pepper flakes
    * 1/2 teaspoon oregano
    * 1/2 teaspoon sage
    * 1/2 teaspoon basil
    * 1/2 teaspoon thyme
    * 1 lb ground lean pork

I made a simple sauce with 6 and 1's.

As for the dough, I mixed it up this morning, rose for an hour while I was doing other stuff in the kitchen.  Into the fridge until about 2 hours before baking. 

It ended up fantastic, with flaky and tender crust.  It was a big hit with a bunch of friends who have never had deep dish/stuffed pizza before.

Pics to follow...

[dbgtr]

Thanks, Pete.  Giving it a whirl today for tomorrow's games! --db

[dbgtr]

I did the 25% version of this dough, recalculating it for my 14.5 x 13.5 x 1.5" slope sided pans.  It was delightful.  All the Chicagoans at the party were ecstatic, as well as mournful because they'd have to go back to eating regular DC pizza.

Loowaters, you ROCK!  I did the shortening in the pan as you suggested.  Much easier time getting the dough stretched and pinched.  I did find that the dough did shrink back from the pan as it baked.  I drained the tomatoes as you suggested (Cento's ROA San Marzano's) and the pie crisped up without getting soggy from too much topping.  I was more spare in my tomato than some of you, but liked it that way.

Thanks again.  Alas, no pictures.  I'll be trying it again later this week and will take photos. --db

[firefly765]

Well, I made another attempt with an 10" version using .11 thickness factor, 5% olive oil, 18% corn oil, 25% semolina, 75% bread flour instead of AP flour. Totally burnt it in the egg! Barely edible!

So, I don't really know how my crust recipe turned out. My dough seemed very "elastic" & i had to resort to a rolling pin to get it flattened into a pan.

Was that due to the bread flour vs. AP flour? I'll have to give it another try.

Sorry, no pics. Just picture an extremely large dark, dark brown hockey puck with sauce on it!

[dbgtr]

Here's the formulation from the Dough tool for a 14.5 x 13.5 x 1.5" sloped pan:

Flour (100%):    406.74 g  |  14.35 oz | 0.9 lbs
Water (47%):    191.17 g  |  6.74 oz | 0.42 lbs
ADY (.7%):    2.85 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Salt (.5%):    2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    24.4 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.42 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    75.25 g | 2.65 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.57 tbsp | 0.35 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    4.07 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    6.1 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Total (175.2%):   712.61 g | 25.14 oz | 1.57 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Flour is KAAP:

305g KAAP
101.7g Semolina

One observation I had was that the oil content is a little high because I had to add flour (at least 1/4C) to it to make it not bleed oil.  Wondering what other's thoughts were in this regard.  I have a digital scale that I measure everything out to.

[mkc]

Firefly,

What's your Egg setup when you cook?  Are you going based on the dome thermometer and has it been calibrated recently?

I've made the BTB recipe in my oven, not my Egg, but I would keep the temperature as close to 450 as possible, especially with a dark springform pan, which is probably highly conductive and may be contributing to the overbrowning.  I have done NY-style in my Egg, and always do platesetter, legs down, then spacer (Egg feet or grate), then pizza stone.  The air gap between the PS and pizza stone helps keep the underside from browning too fast.

Michelle

[firefly765]

Legs down, 3 egg feet w/ 13" pizza stone on feet. cooking @ 550ish dome thermometer temp. Not using a probe during hot cooks (don't want to melt it) but It's about 50F colder than probe on grate @ 250ish. i think my main problem was duration(35 min) not temp.
 will try again!

Firefly,

What's your Egg setup when you cook?  Are you going based on the dome thermometer and has it been calibrated recently?

I've made the BTB recipe in my oven, not my Egg, but I would keep the temperature as close to 450 as possible, especially with a dark springform pan, which is probably highly conductive and may be contributing to the overbrowning.  I have done NY-style in my Egg, and always do platesetter, legs down, then spacer (Egg feet or grate), then pizza stone.  The air gap between the PS and pizza stone helps keep the underside from browning too fast.

Michelle
[/quot

[mkc]

cooking @ 550ish dome thermometer temp

Hmmm... Same set up I use, but if it were me I'd back that down to the 450 BTB uses in an oven (which is pretty much how we're using the Egg) and still cook the full 30-35 minutes, especially if using a raw sausage patty.  Maybe 475 but that's as high as I'd go.  550 with the high fat in the Chicago dough plus a thinner-gauge pan like a springform seems high to me.  I do like the higher temps for thinner pizzas with fewer toppings, like NY style, but as the load increases, it seems the temp needs to drop so the bottom doesn't burn before the toppings are done.

Are you over on the Egg forum as well?  There are a lot of pizza makers there who can help answer Egg-specific questions as well.

Michelle

[firefly765]

Well, I gave it another shot last night. Here is the recipe:
Flour (75/25)  187.05 g | 8.78 oz | 0.55 lbs  (62g) 25% w/ Semolina
Water (48%):    119.54 g | 4.22 oz | 0.26 lbs
ADY (.8%):    1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Salt (1%):    2.49 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Olive Oil (5%):    12.45 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.77 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
Corn Oil (18%):    44.83 g | 1.58 oz | 0.1 lbs | 9.96 tsp | 3.32 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):    2.49 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    4.98 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):    1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (176.55%):   439.69 g | 15.51 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = 0.1122

The sausage done / crust burnt thing is really a fine tune situation thing to me. My temp was 159F while crust was on the verge of burning. I think next time I'll give in & cook in the oven (I've been using my Big Green Egg).
I also may try a shiny deep dish pan instead of my dark, no-stick spring forms.

My dough was very difficult to spread out in in pan again. I've been kneeding it for about 1 min prior to going into the pan. I think maybe next time I'll just plop it into the pan & spread it out.

Going to work on the sauce too.....but that's another story.

All that being said it was really good. Best to date. here are some pics. The other pie was  Gluten free pie I made for my wife (she's on a GF kick) YUCK!

[loowaters]

The pie looks really good.  One question, what's all the loose semolina from?

Loo

[firefly765]

all pics did not attach , another try:

[dbgtr]

mkc, do you find that the lower temp/longer bake helps with moisture evaporation as well?  I made a couple of pies this weekend and had problems with moisture again.  In these particular instances, unlike other times, I used raw sausage in place of parcooking which I've done in the past.  In both instances, the pies used a low moisture Sargento mozzarella which seemed to be softer and likely higher in moisture than other brands I've used (Polly-O, Frigo).  I used Cento ROA tomatoes that were deseeded, chopped, and drained for 20 minutes, and had some of the puree from the can added back in.

I baked at 475 on the second lowest rack in the oven.  I let the pie rest 5 minutes before cutting, but nonetheless had a soggy pie.

Suggestions? --db

[BTB]

David,

When I do Buzz' version of "Autolyse," which is one of many variations of it, I do add everything into the mixture -- except the oil and butter -- and then wait 20 to 40 minutes before adding the small amount of flour that I am withholding.  I have done it both ways, tho, where I put everything together in the mixture, then "rest" the mixture, then add the remaining flour.  I have to admit, both seemed to work equally as well. 

While I think it is preferable to use the autolyse, it has been debated how dramatic the difference really is.  When I have time, I do the autolyse, but all too often I am rushed doing multiple different kinds of pizzas or just other things, so I skip the autolyse to save time.  I guess I'd say the autolyse procedure is "preferable" but not absolutely "critical."

Regarding salt -- I have come around to always adding salt into the mixture and rarely make pizza dough without it anymore.  To me and others, it makes a dramatic difference in taste, flavor, etc.  But if one has a salt problem, it can be easily withheld.  And I find myself more times than not making this dough for "same day use" and not refrigerating for use the next day or two.  I just like it better that way.  I do like AP flour better, but have made some pretty good deep dish pizzas with GM's Better for Bread flour.

I don't use the springform pans as I didn't like the results, esp. when some of my tasters want olive oil in the bottom of the pan (as opposed to my general preference for Crisco).  Use your shiny pan instead, altho that has some drawbacks, too, but I think would be preferable.  I often find myself flattening the dough on the counter to the width of the pan plus one inch just by hand, then pick the dough up and place it roughly into the pan and then work to press it out into the pan better (especially working to crimp and press the edges up the sides of the pan).  And often times it pays afterwards to wait 10 to 15 minutes to let the dough firm up a little better and press and crimp again before adding all the ingredients.  And even after adding all the ingredients (i.e., "dressing" the pizza), crimp and press the dough edges again right before putting it into the oven.

Until you mentioned it recently, I was not familiar with the Big Green Egg, or even the Black one.  Guess I never paid attention to those threads.  My guess would be that it would tend to severely overcook the bottom of the deep dish pizza pan, but I am just not that familiar with it.  I like a regular oven for deep dish in the range of 425 to 475 degrees F.  Your pictures looked very good, however, even with the dark browning of the crust.  You'll get it down pat in no time, I'm sure.  I assume the semolina was just to aid with the paddle in adding and removing the pizza to your stone.
                                                           
                                                                                         --BTB