Author Topic: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina  (Read 190965 times)

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Offline mmarston

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2008, 07:31:25 PM »
I pre-fry my Italian sausage toppings and then drain on paper towels to reduce the fat. I haven't tried microwaving them but it's worth a try.

Michael
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Offline loowaters

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2008, 07:00:01 AM »
I had to try this out, the talk of it was too big and pics looked too good not to.

I made a 10" using my own Malnati's clone recipe swapping out 20% of the flour for semolina.

Flour                  203g
Semolina              51
Water (47%)       119
Corn Oil (19%)      48
Olive Oil (4%)       10
ADY (1%)              3

This was a same day dough with the first rise in the oven for 1 1/2 hours with the light on and some hot water for humidity.  The second rise was a counter rise for two hours.  Made it half sausage/half pepperoni.  Greased bottom of pan with Crisco and baked at 475* for 20 minutes turning 180* half way through.

I really don't know what to say as it's been covered pretty well in this thread.  It was really good!  It does have a little more snap with the semolina. I have no pics to show as my wife has our digital camera in Florida on vacation with our older daughter, but it didn't look much different from my other efforts or some of those in this thread.  The best endorsement I can give is that I will be making a couple of pies on Friday when my Dad comes in to town and I'm going with this recipe for those pizzas.


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Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2008, 08:39:14 AM »
Loo
That sounds great! I am also making this Manalti style this weekend I may just double your recipe and use whatever dough it takes to make a 14 " I think 6G ADY yeast may be too much?( My new deep dish pan 14X2 :D) and mini pie the balance, or if Peter or someone can give me the calculation for a 14" that would be great! I just don't have the Calculator tool worked out yet . I am stumped with the thickness factors. I do have a few questions if you could please.
You use ADY instead of IDY for same day from what I have both  but from what  I have read IDY would be better for a same day? Or just does not matter? I will be doing overnight refrigorated rise
What type of cheese are you using? Block? shred? part skimand how much (weight and thickness?)
Did you pre cook your sausage, or nuke your pepperoni?
Crisco vs. oil on pan
Thats lower rack at 475  20 min. right? Did you finish it on stone out of pan?
Sauce is 6 in 1 Drained or undrained?
I have the new york style pretty wired so I am excited to advance my repertiore so please anyone BTB,MM,DKM feel free to help me out I do appreciate it. Based on what I have been making with Caputo 00 I know my brain is going to tell me " this dough is not right" I have never made this shaggy/flaky type so thanks for all the pictures, They say 1000 words! Thats whats so cool about this forum.
Thanks all
JOHN
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:34:08 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2008, 09:44:29 AM »
John,

Maybe loo can help you with a dough formulation for your 14" x 2" deep-dish pan, since he is most intimately familiar with his own dough formulation, but if he can remind me of what thickness factor he uses, and how far up the side of his (straight-sided?) pan he pushes the dough, the type of salt he uses, and also whether he uses a bowl residue compensation (and, if so, what value), maybe I can help you with the dough formulation for your particular pan. With that information, I might even ask you to take a first stab at using the deep-dish dough calculating tool to get you to feel more comfortable using that tool.

As far as using ADY or IDY is concerned, there is no reason why you can't use either form of yeast in this case, although I would personally stick to the ADY to be true to loo's dough formulation. I assume that you will follow loo's dough preparation method, but what I don't offhand recall, and maybe loo can remind us, is whether he rehydrates the ADY in warm water before using in his dough formulation. He might even be able to provide a link to his dough preparation method and also offer advice on your plan to use an overnight cold rise rather than a room-temperature rise. For example, for an overnight cold fermentation, you might want to reduce the amount of ADY. Maybe loo has also tried an overnight cold fermentation.

You should also keep in mind that the amounts of sauce and fillings that loo uses with his 10" pan will be less than what you will need for your 14" pan. However, it should be possible to extrapolate from his quantities to your size pan.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:52:37 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2008, 10:08:56 AM »
Thanks Peter,
I stabbed at  the calculator using loos percentagesand 14". I guess as you mentioned the thickness factor would make a difference in the formulation, about 60 G more for a .125 than a .115 thickness is this the area/range I should be using for thickness for this style? The tools really give no average ranges, as I said that is the part that has me down on all the dough tools. Is there any way to explain (reference) how thick say a .125  like 2 nickles..? is without a micrometer? if thats the right tool. That is the desired thickness after baking I assume. anyway think I have something here for 14" x 1.5" up pan looks like this

356 G flour 80%
89 G semolina 20%
4.45 G IDY 1%
13.35 G olive oil 3%
80.12 G Corn oil 18%

168% total 747.75G Sound about right?
I may bump up semolina to 25% add a touch of sugar 1% and a touch of Margarine1%  and a .5% of salt after re reading this entire thread and the BTB postings .125 thickness I hope.
Will give it whirl with pictures
John




« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 10:33:56 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2008, 10:35:41 AM »
John,

I suggest waiting for loo to respond to be sure that we are on the right track. As for the thickness factor, it is what I believe Tom Lehmann calls a "loading" factor. It is not an actual physical thickness. For example, a dough skin with a particular thickness factor can have one physical thickness if it is not allowed to rise (proof), and another physical thickness if it is allowed to rise. The various tools were designed to give the greatest flexibility possible within the design constraints of the tools. That is one reason why the tools don't specify recommended thickness factors. However, for the Chicago deep-dish style, I would say that the range of thickness factors I have seen on the forum is about 0.11-0.14. If you read the posts that describe the various tools and their use, you will see that the tools were primarily designed to be used with known dough formulations where the baker's percents are already known (or can be ascertained) and from which thickness factors can be calculated. Of course, one can also use the tools to design new dough formulations. In such a case, one will have to select a thickness factor to use. The tools don't tell you how to do that. They only do calculations based on the inputs provided.

Peter

Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2008, 10:39:31 AM »
And they are great tools! think I got it now. I will let you know how I make out this weekend, and try for a few pics of the process and results I need a substitute for the 6 in 1s not here as of yet  :'(

John
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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2008, 10:53:37 AM »
Using the Deep Dish Calculating tool, I first entered a checkmark in the Thickness Factor Box, then put in a TF of .125, which is the most common for Chicago Style deep dish pizzas.  I don't know what the exact thickness is, but on subsequent trials you can increase or decrease as you like.  I then put the number 1 in the box for Desired number of dough balls.  Then checked straight-sided, then entered 14" in the Enter your pan's diameter box, then entered 1.5 in the box that indicates How far up the sides of the pan will the dough go (which is pretty standard if your pan is 2" deep)?

Then I put simply 47 in the box for Enter the desired dough hydration, which is the percentage of water.  Then I put a check mark in the ADY box and the number 1 in the box for Enter the desired commercial yeast amount to follow Loo's (not mine) suggested amount of yeast, which isn't much different from my .7 amount.  I and I think Loo generally always use and prefer ADY to IDY, but that's up to you. I highly prefer ADY for either same day or retarded (refrigerated)   Check none for salt, unless you'd like a little.

Then put in 3 in the olive oil box and 18 in the corn oil box.  Check No for whether its a stuffed pizza or not and then I added a 1.5 in the bowl residue box.  And the result shows the following formulation for a 14" deep dish pizza:

Flour (100%):    452.68 g  |  15.97 oz | 1 lbs
Water (47%):    212.76 g  |  7.5 oz | 0.47 lbs
ADY (1%):    4.53 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (3%):    13.58 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Corn Oil (15%):    67.9 g | 2.4 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.03 tbsp | 0.31 cups
Total (166%):   751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Then you have to calculate the proportion of semolina to determine what amount of all-purpose flour and semolina flour to use of the 452.68 grams (15.97 oz) designated for flour.  For an 80/20 blend that Loo used, it would be in your case for the 14" pizza 362.14 g (12.78 oz) of all-purpose flour and 90.54 g (3.19 oz) of semolina flour.

Only for Chicago Style deep dish do I drain the 6 in 1 and only for 45 minutes (otherwise it gets too dry I think).  I most often add some small diced pieces of tomatoes along with it and generally use sliced low moisture part skim mozzarella and  most often add a little provolone on top of that, but one can vary that alot, even using shredded cheese. 

Best of luck.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 11:21:43 AM by BTB »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2008, 11:33:29 AM »
Yep I caught that too! and used the 1.5 waste in the tool. So I am completely on board. Only wish it were the weekend now! I am now planning to do 2-9 inchers and simply use these percentages, (25% semlina as your posts got better and better)  That way I can do 1 pep. and 1 sausage. I think it will be easier to work with, and they look so sweet and deep in the photos. I will ad a touch of provolone, a tiny touch of salt and use your ADY yeast .7 %ish  How exciting! any substitute suggestions for the 6in1's?
Thanks again everybody look out New Jersey - Chicago's comin to town.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 11:41:08 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2008, 11:58:57 AM »
I am not trying to jump the gun on loo on his modified Malnati dough formulation using semolina, but I did take a look at one of his Malnati clone dough formulations at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3115.msg26413/topicseen.html#msg26413. Using the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the ingredient quantities he referenced in the above post, I established that the dough is pushed 1.5 inches up the sides of his 2" pan, and that the pan is straight-sided. The nominal thickness factor is indeed 0.125. I also established that loo did not use a bowl residue compensation. However, he did use less ADY, possibly because he used cold fermentation. So, pending reply from loo, John may want to use less ADY for his 9" doughs if he still plans to use cold fermentation. loo also rehydrated the ADY in all of the formula water (warm).

Peter
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 12:04:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2008, 01:26:18 PM »
While I have not tried it, I've seen many on this website indicate that they thought the crush tomatoes in the Walmart house brand (think it's "Great Value" brand) is a pretty good substitute for 6 in 1.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2008, 02:01:21 PM »
Back from the store with Red Pack Crushed. Cento organic diced? Bobs Red Mill Semolina, some rice flour for the peel (later) and Pete The Hormel Pep. was on sale 2 pkg for $4 thats the best I have seen! date on back March 09 they will be lucky to make it to Dec 08! I think thats just a sell by date? I keep this stuff around a month or 2 with no prob. after opening. Another tid-bit I picked up was some Marscapone cheese just because I think I remember reading about it?  I'll do the simple search here, and sure you could dig me up a few links peter? 
On a side note; I was there looking for the  bobs red mill which I knew they sell because I got it from their web site. The manager was there doing some pricing or whatever the manager does  and he pointed me to it. "great"  I said I plan to use 25% of this and the KAAP flour to make a deep dish. The reply was " why go thru all that I just call pizza hut"  after the shock, with the recent posts burning on my mind,  I prepared to give a dissertation on the ailing chain. Nope, I just smirked and said "That works"  if she only knew ;D

Back to the Pie.
Thats exactly how I reversed loos formulation as well peter. 1.5 " up, straight pan .125 TF and a 1.5 waste. so I guess I finally do have it figured out.
Allways open and grateful for suggestions and advice
Thank you in advance for a slice of the good stuff.
John
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 02:06:18 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline loowaters

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2008, 02:37:45 PM »
Sorry I didn't jump back in sooner.  Now I haven't read everything back to my last post but real quick, and sorry I didn't post this in my original, I know better, I use a thickness factory of .130 without adding a % for bowl residue.

Loo
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 03:03:03 PM by loowaters »
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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2008, 03:02:15 PM »
Loo
That sounds great! I am also making this Manalti style this weekend I may just double your recipe and use whatever dough it takes to make a 14 " I think 6G ADY yeast may be too much?( My new deep dish pan 14X2 :D) and mini pie the balance, or if Peter or someone can give me the calculation for a 14" that would be great! I just don't have the Calculator tool worked out yet . I am stumped with the thickness factors. I do have a few questions if you could please.
You use ADY instead of IDY for same day from what I have both  but from what  I have read IDY would be better for a same day? Or just does not matter? I will be doing overnight refrigorated rise
What type of cheese are you using? Block? shred? part skimand how much (weight and thickness?)
Did you pre cook your sausage, or nuke your pepperoni?
Crisco vs. oil on pan
Thats lower rack at 475  20 min. right? Did you finish it on stone out of pan?
Sauce is 6 in 1 Drained or undrained?
I have the new york style pretty wired so I am excited to advance my repertiore so please anyone BTB,MM,DKM feel free to help me out I do appreciate it. Based on what I have been making with Caputo 00 I know my brain is going to tell me " this dough is not right" I have never made this shaggy/flaky type so thanks for all the pictures, They say 1000 words! Thats whats so cool about this forum.
Thanks all
JOHN


John, I'm sorry, if I had more time this morning I would have gone into greater detail about how I made this. 

To answer the questions:

-I ferment as I can.  Yesterday I had to do it same day because it struck me that I haven't made a DD in months and I wanted one.  I'm a bachelor this week and don't have to explain it to my wife. :P  I'm going to make my dough on Thursday for Friday night's use and it will get less ADY and fridge rise.

-I use only sliced part skim low moisture mozz but occasionally will go 50/50 with provalone.  Whole milk doesn't seem to reheat as well.

-I never precook my sausage but have nuked my pepperoni before.

-I like to use Crisco because a solid fat is easier to work the dough into the pan with than the oil.

-I went middle rack at 475 but it's more about distance from your element.  Trial and error that one.  No stone involved.

-For sauce I do something different than everyone else in this thread, I hand crush whole, peeled, tomatoes.  Crush into pieces the size of a quarter or a little larger, de-seeding as I go.  I'll then add puree back in to those crushed, drained tomatoes.  Salt and pepper is all they get.  I usually use Wal Mart's Great Value crushed tomatoes but prefer 6in1's, they just aren't usually available to me.  I don't drain them but if I was using them by themselves on a pie I would.  I make my puree from the crushed or ground tomatoes.

A lot of what I usually do is in this thread - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.40.html

Good luck.

-



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Offline mmarston

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2008, 10:09:30 AM »
When calculating the amount of Semolina do you use a % of the total flour or the Semolina entry in the Dough calculator?
Each method provides different amounts???

Is there any significant difference between using Canola, Corn or Safflower oil in the deep dish style?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:12:17 AM by mmarston »
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2008, 10:16:16 AM »
MM,
Good ? before I begin. I am planning to use % of total flour for semolina no entry 0 in that box choice.
I have all the oil so I'll wait on that one I think the canola is prefered here.
J
 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2008, 10:30:02 AM »
When calculating the amount of Semolina do you use a % of the total flour or the Semolina entry in the Dough calculator?
Each method provides different amounts???

Is there any significant difference between using Canola, Corn or Safflower oil in the deep dish style?

Michael,

The deep-dish dough calculating tool was designed primarily to work with existing dough formulations where the baker's percents and weights are already known or can be readily ascertained. When creating a brand new dough formulation, as BTB has done, the better method to use is to treat the flour and semolina together as a blend rather than as separate entries in the tool, just as BTB has been doing most recently. That way, the hydration is treated with respect to the blend. It is possible to use semolina separately in the tool, but then it becomes necessary to re-calculate all of the baker's percents for all of the ingredients because the tool uses hydration only with respect to the flour, not the blend. Using the semolina in the tool and doing the recalculation of baker's percents ends up with some strange percents (e.g., the hydration might show up as 85% and the semolina might show up as 82%) that distort what the dough formulation really is. So, the better way is to treat the semolina and flour together in the tool as the 100% entry.

I will leave to others the question you posed relative to the different oils.

Peter


Offline mmarston

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2008, 10:56:04 AM »
Thanks,

That's what I thought but wasn't sure.
I'm going to try some type of Chicago style this weekend. I'll probably go with this style as it sounds great.

If anyone's interested I have an old recipe for a very thin all semolina dough with baking powder that is cooked in a dry frying pan, flipped, topped and finished in the pan with a cover on top. I've used it as a base for various appetizer ingredients.

Michael
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Offline loowaters

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2008, 01:16:53 PM »
Is there any significant difference between using Canola, Corn or Safflower oil in the deep dish style?

They'll all produce a different taste and my personal taste preference is using primarily corn oil.
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Offline mmarston

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2008, 08:54:12 PM »
I had to jerk my bi coastal and honorary Italian self around quite a bit but I made a great Chicago style based on reply 16 (25% semolina) from this thread. I layered Mozz and Parmesan, It sausage (lightly fried and drained) , some chopped baby spinach mixed with a bit of grated Mozz and more Parmesan. Finished with drained 6 in 1s with some added Muir Glen chopped for texture including Basil, Oregano, granulated garlic and a bit of crushed red pepper.

While I still have trouble calling this a pizza it was delicious. I had hoped to try  a Mexican version as well but we had a nasty ice storm here Thursday night and while I never lost power I had a lot of downed trees to clean up.  Next time!

Frankly it's a good thing I only made one 9" pie as my wife and I could only eat half of it.

Michael
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 09:00:45 PM by mmarston »
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2008, 08:39:59 AM »
Micheal ,
Looks great !
I also made my first deep dish made 2 nine inch pies 1 sausage one pepperoni slightly nuked to degrease (and 7  NY Neapolitan hey the oven was hot) oh and thanks to Peter 1 BBQ Chicken Dogh tool was perfect final weight was right on!
Thank you BTB and Loo for your input tasted great!! Crust did not look as shaggy but tasted very very similar to the last UNO I had. Used the drained 6-1 and added 1 can of Hand crushed DOP San Marzanos
to chunk it up a bit. Because I could and because I have been buying to many sample tomatoes and the cabinet is full  :D Reduced the liquid from both and used it for the NY style sauce. Yummy.
I will posts pics of the process / results tonight. Guaranteed to make you hungry.
Thanks again
John
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:35:04 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline mmarston

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2008, 09:19:49 AM »
Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. My first attempt was a great success. I think I'm going to try one of the more biscuity types next time.

If you have never made a Chicago style before keep in mind that the dough is nothing like a NY or Neapolitan. At first I thought something had gone wrong and was horrified by the greasy ball of dough I made. I went back and confirmed the amounts of oil in typical Chicago recipes and was reassured.

This may be obvious but if you like to use Italian sausage it's worth trying to find an Italian deli or butcher that makes their own sausage. I've found it is almost always leaner and of higher quality than what you find at the supermarket.
It freezes very well so you can stock up if the store is not nearby.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2008, 09:42:39 AM »
Michael,

When I first researched the doughs for the Chicago deep-dish style, especially the dough recipes of folks who worked in the business and offered up dough recipes, I found the range of oil to be around 8-24% (or thereabouts). However, the members on this forum sometimes exceed the outer limit.

Peter

Offline JConk007

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2008, 09:43:57 AM »
I forgot to mention the 1 mistake I made. When I was reading "I added water to flour and let stand for about 25 Min." Well I added water and oils then read "after that I added the oils and..."
I still let it all rest minus 1/2 cup of  flour, for like 20Min., and turned out fine. Maybe that affected the hydration and that is why it was not as dry looking> Yes plenty oily but I expected that. Spread into crisco pan nicely.
Same thing here, I cannot wait to make this again  good stuff  and leftovers for lunch today if I make it that long ;D
JOhn
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Offline mmarston

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2008, 11:27:43 AM »
Peter

This recipe calls for:

Olive Oil (5%)
Corn Oil (18%)
Butter/Margarine (1%):

I'd like to try reducing the corn and perhaps the olive oil. What effect would this have on the dough and what amounts would you suggest?

Michael
Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry


 

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