Author Topic: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina (Read 114330 times)

BTB · « **Reply #620 on:** January 26, 2012, 12:59:54 PM »

Hey, great John. Am anxious to hear if some of my suggestions worked out good for you. Ideas and various thoughts are what makes this site interesting and useful for everyone. --BTB

skunker · « **Reply #621 on:** January 26, 2012, 07:59:32 PM »

Quote from: BTB on October 25, 2011, 08:52:47 AM

The formulation for both pizzas was as follows, each differing only in the flour blend.

Flour Blend (100%): 206.59 g | 7.29 oz | 0.46 lbs
Water (45%): 92.96 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs
ADY (.8%): 1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1%): 2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%): 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%): 24.79 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.51 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%): 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.62 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%): 3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Total (172.3%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875

The flour blend in the first pizza had 80% KAAP (approx. 165.6 g) and 20% semolina (41.4 g). The flour blend in the second pizza had 80% KAAP (approx. 165.6 g), 12% semolina (24.8 g), and 8% rice flour (16.5 g). The butter in each was added at the last moment in the mixing cycle and was very soft, but not melted. ADY was a little more than the .6% that I normally use. And each pan had roughly a Tbsp of OO in each.

--BTB

BTB, I'm assuming that when you make the dough, you put all those above ingredients into the mix at once or do you mix for a while and then gradually add some of those into it?

BTB · « **Reply #622 on:** January 27, 2012, 08:48:05 AM »

While I think I read here that the pros start with the wet ingredients first, my technique has been to put all the dry ingredients (flour blend, salt, sugar) together in a bowl first and just whisk together. Then the ADY that has fermented with a little of the total water (at 110 degrees) for about 10 minutes. Then the rest of the water and mix it with a wooden spoon. Then the oils and after a brief spoon mix, I mix it roughly by hand basically just trying to bring the dough all together and then knead it in my hands for about 30 seconds. Be careful not to over knead, or your dough may get more of a bread texture, which is not good generally.

And that recipe was for each of the 9" pizzas (only the flour blend might vary). So each dough ball should weigh somewhere near 356 grams.

skunker · « **Reply #623 on:** January 28, 2012, 08:01:46 PM »

Hi all,
Did my 3rd attempt following the BTB recipe on post #488 of this thread but using the oven temp and time direction from the realdeepdish.com recipe. I used a 9" pan at 450 for 35mins. The dough was kneaded for 35secs and then left covered in a bowl for 6hrs at room temp. The results: Better taste overall this time around. I used 6n1 for the sauce. The mozzarella still did not really impress me...I am using a Walmart sliced mozzarella (part skim). Next time I will use half mozz and half provolone. The 6n1 was good...but to be honest, I felt it should be sweeter. Oh yea, the crust began to char about 15mins before the cooking time was supposed to end. I still need to tweak things.

skunker · « **Reply #624 on:** January 28, 2012, 08:03:22 PM »

here is the final:

vcb · « **Reply #625 on:** January 28, 2012, 08:06:07 PM »

Quote from: skunker on January 28, 2012, 08:01:46 PM

Hi all,
Did my 3rd attempt following the BTB recipe on post #488 of this thread but using the oven temp and time direction from the realdeepdish.com recipe. I used a 9" pan at 450 for 35mins. The dough was kneaded for 35secs and then left covered in a bowl for 6hrs at room temp. The results: Better taste overall this time around. I used 6n1 for the sauce. The mozzarella still did not really impress me...I am using a Walmart sliced mozzarella (part skim). Next time I will use half mozz and half provolone. The 6n1 was good...but to be honest, I felt it should be sweeter. Oh yea, the crust began to char about 15mins before the cooking time was supposed to end. I still need to tweak things.

Taste your sauce before you put it on your pizza. If it's not sweet enough before you put it in, stir in a bit of sugar until it tastes right to you.

Looking at that pre-bake photo, it looks like you are using too much sauce.

The post-bake photo looks mighty good!

If the charring starts to happen, cover the top of the pizza loosely with a sheet of aluminum foil for the rest of the baking time.

Also, for smaller pizzas, you might not need to bake them so long.
You could probably bake a 9" pizza in 25 to 30 minutes.

skunker · « **Reply #626 on:** January 28, 2012, 08:13:50 PM »

Quote from: vcb on January 28, 2012, 08:06:07 PM

Taste your sauce before you put it on your pizza. If it's not sweet enough before you put it in, stir in a bit of sugar until it tastes right to you.

Looking at that pre-bake photo, it looks like you are using too much sauce.

The post-bake photo looks mighty good!

If the charring starts to happen, cover the top of the pizza loosely with a sheet of aluminum foil for the rest of the baking time.

Also, for smaller pizzas, you might not need to bake them so long.
You could probably bake a 9" pizza in 25 to 30 minutes.

Hi Vcb,
Never thanked you for your website, but it has been a huge help!

Yes, I think I need to do two things next time: lessen the sauce and decrease the baking time. I have Polly-o coming in next week to a local store. Either way, I have leftovers! Thanks.

vcb · « **Reply #627 on:** January 28, 2012, 08:28:53 PM »

Quote from: skunker on January 28, 2012, 08:13:50 PM

Hi Vcb,
Never thanked you for your website, but it has been a huge help!

Yes, I think I need to do two things next time: lessen the sauce and decrease the baking time. I have Polly-o coming in next week to a local store. Either way, I have leftovers! Thanks.

I'm glad you like my site. It's still a work in progress, but my goal is to try making Deep Dish more approachable to the home cook.
I'd probably still be in the dark about deep dish if I hadn't found the great people who contribute their trials and experiences in this Pizzamaking.com Chicago Style forum.

BTB · « **Reply #628 on:** January 29, 2012, 12:46:10 PM »

Skunker, it is sometimes a little tough to assess in a couple of photographs about the quality of the pizza that one did. But at first blush, yours looked pretty good. I, too, got an initial impression that you used too much sauce, but sometimes that first impression is wrong, esp. upon viewing the second photograph. And some of mine have not looked too dissimilar. For a 9" diameter deep dish pizza, I think I use somewhere near 1/2 a 28 oz. can of 6 in 1's, which would be around 14 ozs., but I never weigh that as I just try to cover the pizza as I think needed to be made. And instead of using it all, I love to add some additional pieces of "chunky" tomatoes to get close to the real Chicago Style deep dish pizza.

I and my tasters would love your pizza based on the photos as we love a little well done pizza. And yours looked good to me. But Ed's suggestion on the sheet of aluminum foil is a real good one as well as adding a tsp or two of sugar to the sauce (maybe even some brown sugar). In some respects, yours looked great, so I'll just suggest that sometimes the next one that you do, may not be as good in some respects as the prior one. The difficult part will be . . . which aspect was better or worse than the other . . . so I can improve or duplicate what I previously did. Have fun and enjoy making great pizzas.

But again, great job and I hope you and yours enjoyed the pizza.

--BTB

mugwump · « **Reply #629 on:** February 05, 2012, 04:24:46 AM »

All praise to BTB, without whom my pizzas would be less than praiseworthy!

I can't seem to crack a few topics mentioned in this thread:

1. Sauce. The Lou Malnati's can of tomatoes they sell in their restaurants around Chicago is the final word in deep dish pizza tomatoes. It's the perfect chunky-to-sauce ratio. But I can't seem to replicate it -- 6 in 1 is certainly not it! That's more like a tomato paste, not chunky Deep Dish.

But adding stewed tomatoes to 6 in 1 makes it quite watery. Squishing the tomatoes and draining them removes the chunkiness, too. The best tasting stewed tomatoes were some D.O.P. San Marizanos mixed in with 6 in 1, but boy did that turn out watery even with 15 minutes of draining!

2. Dough. The best Lou Malnati's order is at 4:30pm, before the rush begins, when everything is plentiful fresh to order and the crust is sour from using the oldest dough first. Burt's Pizza in Morton Grove is all about the sour crust, too. But that sour fermentation is still so elusive to achieve. I have thrown a ziploc bag of dough into the fridge for up to a week to try and get that fermented sour dough taste, and I think 2-3 days achieves it the best, but still it is lacking.

Was there ever any consensus about the type of flour to achieve the most fermentation? King Arthur All Purpose seems serviceable and is popular around this forum, but I'm not sure what will do the trick.

3. Cheese. Lately I've been doing blocks of Polly-O and Trader Joe's whole milk mozzarella. Funny that Polly-O simply does not exist anywhere in the Chicagoland area, when the kraft headquarters is there. I have located it at an italian market / deli here in Los Angeles, and it's not bad. The Trader Joe's whole milk mozz is also smooth. Neither of them, including Boar's Head, get those impossibly long melted strands that is the trademark of a deep Pizza Pie. Next I will just do the local California supermarket Lucerne mozzarella brand that has extreme melting ability but perhaps salty taste.

Okay, well sorry to dump a number of issues in one posting. I've been lurking here for quite a while.

skunker · « **Reply #630 on:** February 05, 2012, 09:01:47 AM »

Quote from: mugwump on February 05, 2012, 04:24:46 AM

All praise to BTB, without whom my pizzas would be less than praiseworthy!

I can't seem to crack a few topics mentioned in this thread:

1. Sauce. The Lou Malnati's can of tomatoes they sell in their restaurants around Chicago is the final word in deep dish pizza tomatoes. It's the perfect chunky-to-sauce ratio. But I can't seem to replicate it -- 6 in 1 is certainly not it! That's more like a tomato paste, not chunky Deep Dish.

But adding stewed tomatoes to 6 in 1 makes it quite watery. Squishing the tomatoes and draining them removes the chunkiness, too. The best tasting stewed tomatoes were some D.O.P. San Marizanos mixed in with 6 in 1, but boy did that turn out watery even with 15 minutes of draining!

Agreed that the 6n1s alone will not give you what you are looking for, but by adding a bit of Glen Muir Diced Tomatoes (Basil and Garlic) it comes pretty close, imho. BTB also mentioned that is what he uses. As for the soggyness, are you draining the puree/tomatoes before placing them on your pie? Also, check out this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17557.0.html

BTB · « **Reply #631 on:** February 07, 2012, 07:10:32 PM »

Thanks, MW. The Malnalti's sauce is incredibly good and I stockpiled my supply from late last summer when last in Chicago. Some of the alternatives talked about here are close. Pastines has increased their product lines and are very good, also. But some small diced tomatoes (from a good brand) are often advisable as an add. I think stewed tomatoes may become too mushy. The diced tomatoes over the 20 to 40 minutes of oven baking get thoroughly cooked making stewed tomatoes unnecessary IMO. And they taste just like those at Malnati's in many ways.

I was a regular at Burt's Pequod's when he owned it. But his crust was and is much more of a Sicilian crust IMHO . . . very good, but not typical classic Chicago Style deep dish.

Flour consensus, no, we are still searching for the best flour for Chicago Style. I still love KAAP, but others have been suggested some other brands. VCB has talked about Ceresota, but I don't find it where I'm at. I think we need to look at and experiment a lot more with different types and brands of flour, tho.

I can't say that in the 4 or 5 years that I've become a pizzamaker that there is a hands down best mozzarella cheese brand out there, except I have a little preference for Polly-O. When I previously lived in the Chicago North suburbs, I was introduced to that brand at Sam's Club. But I have not recently seen it at any Sam's in Florida or Michigan that I now frequent. They may have parted the ways over -- what else -- money. Many think Polly-O is just an ordinary Kraft brand, but they have only in the last few years been bought by Kraft and so far have maintained a very good separate distinct taste and identity.

And finally, you mentioned some problems about . . .

Quote from: mugwump on February 05, 2012, 04:24:46 AM

. . . get those impossibly long melted strands that is the trademark of a deep Pizza Pie.

I have no idea (LOL) what you could possibly be talking about . . . .
--BTB

vcb · « **Reply #632 on:** February 07, 2012, 07:40:01 PM »

Quote from: BTB on February 07, 2012, 07:10:32 PM

Flour consensus, no, we are still searching for the best flour for Chicago Style. I still love KAAP, but others have been suggested some other brands. VCB has talked about Ceresota, but I don't find it where I'm at.

If you can't find Ceresota or Heckers all-purpose flour near you, sometimes you can find a store brand with the same ingredient ratios. I recently picked up Roundy's brand from Mariano's Fresh Market and it had the same ratios as the Ceresota they had next to it, and it was a buck cheaper.

Here's a shot of the labels from two different all-purpose flours:
Ceresota is on the right.
I think the one on the left was Pillsbury.

Compare the Total Carbohydrate number and the distribution of the carb/fiber/sugar below that number.
It leads me to believe that the ratio of "wheat flour" to "malted barley flour" may be slightly different in the Ceresota than the other major brands. OR... This could all not mean a whole lot, since each flour manufacturer can choose what they consider a "serving size", and Pillsbury thinks 1/4 cup of their flour weighs 31 grams
while Ceresota thinks a 1/4 cup of their flour weighs only 30g.

The important takeaway from this is that if you are looking at generic or store brands,
odds are good they didn't go out of their way to change the nutrition labels from what their supplier gave them.
So, if the ingredient label looks identical to Ceresota, it probably is Ceresota, or is the same or similar formulation.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #633 on:** February 07, 2012, 07:54:00 PM »

Quote from: BTB on February 07, 2012, 07:10:32 PM

Many think Polly-O is just an ordinary Kraft brand, but they have only in the last few years been bought by Kraft and so far have maintained a very good separate distinct taste and identity.

BTB,

Polly-O was purchased by Kraft in 1986 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polly-O).

Peter

Garvey · « **Reply #634 on:** February 08, 2012, 11:41:11 AM »

Thanks to BTB for the great recipe! And I also have to give additional thanks to everyone on this thread (yep, I read the whole thing, and no, I'm not a masochist but a pizza obsessive!).

After hunting down semolina flour, sold in bulk at the hippie store (really, the American South isn't just a pizza wasteland but a grocery wasteland, too), I was able to make this for Superbowl Sunday. Did a 12" with spinach, onions, mushrooms, bell pepper, and half had sausage also. (With all those veggies--sauteed first--I added a little bit of shredded colby jack for ballast.) Turned out AMAZING!

I can say this without qualification: it was the best deep dish I've ever eaten. I realize that's a bold statement (pun intended), but it's true.

One thing I did differently from BTB's recipe is that I used Ed's (vcb's) dough weight. After having made his recipe first, a while back, I couldn't imagine wanting a crust 50% thicker, which is what BTB's recipe would call for. So for a 12" pie, I had 400 g of dough (and 225 g for a 9" pie). It was perfect. So well balanced. This is definitely a keeper. I will make this again, with this exact formulation, weight, everything.

dellavecchia · « **Reply #635 on:** February 08, 2012, 01:17:35 PM »

Garvey - fantastic deep dish. I like that you layered the cheese slices up the side. I will have to try that.

John

Garvey · « **Reply #636 on:** February 08, 2012, 01:48:09 PM »

Thanks, John. I had to do the cheese on the sides like that to give the edge some structure. Otherwise, the dough kept wanting to sink back down a bit. It tastes good that way, too, and keeps the rim high and tight.

Cheers,
Garvey

skunker · « **Reply #637 on:** February 11, 2012, 05:29:29 PM »

Hi all,
This is attempt #5 and probably one of the last I make for the quarter. I'm happy with the results!

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p1.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p3.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p2.jpg

vcb · « **Reply #638 on:** February 11, 2012, 05:31:56 PM »

Quote from: skunker on February 11, 2012, 05:29:29 PM

Hi all,
This is attempt #5 and probably one of the last I make for the quarter. I'm happy with the results!

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p1.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p3.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p2.jpg

wow, that's a lot of gooey cheese!
what kind did you use and how much?

pythonic · « **Reply #639 on:** February 11, 2012, 09:07:18 PM »

Excellent looking pizza skunker! Any leftovers?