Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina

[vonBanditos]

vonBanditos,

I always weigh the finished dough and compare it with the number given in the dough calculating tool. That is where I am likely to detect that I did something wrong from a measurement standpoint. You might try that method next time and see what you get.

Peter

Pete-zza,

My dough weight was definitely too low - below 700 (which is why in my pictures the crust doesn't go up very high). I'll have to pay more attention to the scale and try other spoons. Thank you for the advice! I've been reading the forums for a few months and always stop to read your posts. I doubt I could have made it this far without them!

vB

[Pete-zza]

vB,

If you were below 700 grams, that is a large deficit (over 50 grams). I assume that you have been taring out the weight of your container before adding major ingredients such as flour. If you did not tare out the container with the flour (but did tare it out for the water), you would end up with a wet, underweight dough. Of course, too much oil can also yield a wet dough but that should cause the dough weight to rise.

Peter

[BTB]

Just a few comments to try to be helpful, vonbandito. A deep dish pizza, while thicker than the average midwest thin crust, is surprisingly not that thick and many NY styles actually end up thicker.  I can't make out the thickness of your pizza because we don't have a side view of a piece, so I can't comment on the effectiveness of the fermantation or whether the dough raised enough.  A TF of .125 is usually good, although the deep dish pizza at Oprah's favorite Chicago Pizzeria (allegedly), Pizano's, is considerably thinner.  It looks like your steps proceeded nicely, but I think you may have been able to push more dough to the side of the pan and then further up the side of the pan.  But it looked fine as is.  Also, it looked a little overcooked (I've done it many times, too), from viewing both the top with the sauce that appears a little dry, and from the piece that views the bottom -- it doesn't have a nice golden appearance that sometimes means its cooked right.  I've done that, too, many times and even then, it turned out very good and tasty.  So it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.  Just a suggestion to cut back on baking time or placement on a higher oven rack.   (Matter of fact, the last one I reported on above was a little overcooked, but tasted fantastic).  But in any event, your pizza looks delicious.

[vonBanditos]

Pete-zza,

I only measured the second, non-oily-mess pizza. I assume that the weight was so low because I used so much less oil than called for (by weight), but I will be careful next time! I am measuring by zero-ing out my scale with a bowl or plate on it and then slowly adding the measured ingredient until I get the desired weight.

BTB,

Sadly, you are correct, it was a bit overcooked (15 minutes, rotate, 8 minutes)! It tasted wonderful, though, and it gave me enough hope that I can soon make great pizzas! As for the dough going up the pan, I had some difficulty stretching it even that far. Even that modest amount of stretching caused holes to appear in the dough and it began to get quite thin. Since my dough was underweight I can only assume that it is because I did not have enough. I will be preparing another pie for the Oscar de la Hoya fight this weekend and will take all of the suggestions given in this thread and try to make a great pie! Many thanks for all of the help!

[Pete-zza]

I only measured the second, non-oily-mess pizza. I assume that the weight was so low because I used so much less oil than called for (by weight), but I will be careful next time! I am measuring by zero-ing out my scale with a bowl or plate on it and then slowly adding the measured ingredient until I get the desired weight.

vB,

You might try weighing out only the flour and water and use volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients, using a tablespoon measuring spoon for the oils. I think you will find that that method will be good enough for your purposes. Of course, you can weigh out the oils also, if you prefer. In that case, the way I would do it is to use a proper-size measuring cup, tare it out, and add both oils to the measuring cup. You might need just a tad bit more oil to compensate for the fact that some of the oil will stick to the inner walls of the measuring cup. (One way to deal with this is to lightly coat the inside of the measuring cup with a bit of oil before taring it out.)

Peter

[BTB]

I hope you continue with your pizzamaking efforts, vb, as it can only get better and better. 

As seen earlier in this thread, I've been interested in continually adding some semolina flour into the pizza dough mixture for Chicago Style deep dish and have been experimenting with different proportions of semolina.  My latest had been with a 35% proportion of Semolina, which is the highest I've tried to date.  Based on Peter's recent recommended way of calculating the semolina in the formulation, which does not utilize putting a semolina figure or amount into the deep dish calculating tool itself, I manually calculated the proportions of AP flour and Semolina flour (i.e., in this case 65% and 35% of the total flour amount).
 
Using my 12" Pizzaware deep dish pan with 2" straight sides (and 1.5" of dough up the side), my latest experiment -- using the deep-dish dough calculation tool -- involved the following formulation:
 
Flour and Semolina Blend*  (100%):  329.88 g  |  11.64 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (47%):  155.04 g  |  5.47 oz | 0.34 lbs
ADY (.7%):  2.31 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  19.79 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.4 tsp | 1.47 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  61.03 g | 2.15 oz | 0.13 lbs | 4.52 tbsp | 0.28 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):  3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  4.95 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Total (174.7%): 576.3 g | 20.33 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.126875
*Note:   The Flour and Semolina Blend is made up of 214.42 g. (7.56 oz.) all-purpose flour and 115.46 g. (4.07 oz.) semolina flour.
 
As before I used KAAP flour and Bob's Red Mill Semolina flour and calculated a 1.5% bowl residue.  I proceeded about the same as indicated above and put in a lot of cheese this time (first some slices of low moisture part skim mozzarella, then some shredded whole milk mozzarella, then some pieces of provolone, and finally some scrapes of some good fresh mozzarella that I had left in the refrigerator).  And of course I put a sausage patty on top of that, which is my favorite ingredient, but others can choose many different variations. 

[BTB]

I baked the pizza at 450 degrees F for about 23 to 25 minutes, turning 180 degrees after 15 minutes, and putting it on the next to the bottom rack in the oven.  The pizza was excellent as I hope you can see from the pictures and my pizza tasters and I are very hard pressed to say whether the deep dish is better with a small amount or a greater amount of semolina.  They've all been great to date.  But I can definitely say that the Chicago Style deep dish pizzas are better with semolina than without it.  The semolina gives it a little crispier and light crutch texture that I think is really, really good.

[JConk007]

BTB,
Awesome ! I was too busy for pizza this weekend. Major Honey do list But as mentioned This is my next pie to try.
Just 2 things I am following up  on.
You do no par baking like some of the other posts and styles of crusts right? and
Can  you tell me what you are doing with the sausage? appears uncooked, as you mentioned in a previous thread right? Is this the pattie type you are mashing down? removing from casing? or neither? Do some of the chicago places ( uno all I know) use chunk as well? what type of sausage do you prefer? Where does the grease go? Have you? will you try pepperoni? and post those wonderful pics please.
thank you
John
ps. never too much cheese!

[BTB]

John, I know about those honey do lists.  No, I don't par bake the dough or skins for Chicago Style deep dish.  About the only style that I do that with are the cracker crusts and some other thin crusts.  Once about a year ago I tried par baking a deep dish (without semolina) and it didn't come out bad.  I intended to pursue trying it again sometime in the future, but never got around to it.  "So many pizzas and so few days!"

I used to get the sausage from a specialty Italian deli without the casing and press it out in a circle between two sheets of parchment paper or wax paper.  But my favorite sausage now comes from an independent deli shop that only does it in links or casings.  I just cut the casing down the middle and take the meat out and squeeze it out onto the paper.  The Chicago deep dish places put a lot of sausage on their pizzas, so much so that it often appears to be in a patty configuration.  But the only place that I know that does the patty routinely is the famous Gino's East.  Lou Malnati's puts the sausage down in chunks, but if you've ever seen them making a sausage pizza on television, they put it so close together that it appears to look like a patty.  You can do it anyway, however.  Chunks or pieces are just fine.  And a little or a lot is one's choice.

Good sausage has little to no grease.  Most people mistake the water from some of the whole milk or fresh mozzarella cheese as coming from the sausage, but it's not usually the sausage.  Use fresh mozzarella sparingly, if at all.  It is delicious of course, but often makes for too wet a pizza.  I estimate that 99% of Chicago pizzerias put their sausage on a pizza raw or totally uncooked as they cook a pizza longer and at a lower temperature than pizzas back East and elsewhere.  And most of the sausage is a lean mild or sweet sausage with hot or spicy sausage not being that common on pizzas.  And I often put pepperoni on a portion or sometimes all of the pizza in addition to the sausage.  I like the Boar's Head brand best.  When you use pepperoni, remember to first "nuke" it in the microwave on a paper towel for 30 seconds or so to "degrease" it.  That's what many of the veteran pizza makers on this website do to prevent a lot of grease that always comes from pepperoni.

Good luck with your pizzamaking.

[Pete-zza]

When you use pepperoni, remember to first "nuke" it in the microwave on a paper towel for 30 seconds or so to "degrease" it.  That's what many of the veteran pizza makers on this website do to prevent a lot of grease that always comes from pepperoni.

A few months ago, I read a bit in an email article from Cook's Illustrated about using the microwave to degrease pepperoni slices. I'm paraphrasing here, but the gist of the recommendation was to place the pepperoni slices between sheets of paper towels and then place the paper towels/pepperoni slices between two dinner plates, and then put that assembly into the microwave. I usually microwave the assembly at full power for about 15 seconds and check to see if more microwaving is necessary. You don't want to overdo it because the pepperoni slices can get too dry. You don't want to extract all of the fat. Some brands of pepperoni slices have more fat than others, so microwaving the slices in steps is perhaps the prudent way to go. In my case, the pepperoni slices I use are the standard supermarket Hormel slices (the larger ones in the pouch and the smaller ones sealed in plastic).

Peter

[mmarston]

I pre-fry my Italian sausage toppings and then drain on paper towels to reduce the fat. I haven't tried microwaving them but it's worth a try.

Michael

[loowaters]

I had to try this out, the talk of it was too big and pics looked too good not to.

I made a 10" using my own Malnati's clone recipe swapping out 20% of the flour for semolina.

Flour                  203g
Semolina              51
Water (47%)       119
Corn Oil (19%)      48
Olive Oil (4%)       10
ADY (1%)              3

This was a same day dough with the first rise in the oven for 1 1/2 hours with the light on and some hot water for humidity.  The second rise was a counter rise for two hours.  Made it half sausage/half pepperoni.  Greased bottom of pan with Crisco and baked at 475* for 20 minutes turning 180* half way through.

I really don't know what to say as it's been covered pretty well in this thread.  It was really good!  It does have a little more snap with the semolina. I have no pics to show as my wife has our digital camera in Florida on vacation with our older daughter, but it didn't look much different from my other efforts or some of those in this thread.  The best endorsement I can give is that I will be making a couple of pies on Friday when my Dad comes in to town and I'm going with this recipe for those pizzas.

[JConk007]

Loo
That sounds great! I am also making this Manalti style this weekend I may just double your recipe and use whatever dough it takes to make a 14 " I think 6G ADY yeast may be too much?( My new deep dish pan 14X2 ) and mini pie the balance, or if Peter or someone can give me the calculation for a 14" that would be great! I just don't have the Calculator tool worked out yet . I am stumped with the thickness factors. I do have a few questions if you could please.
You use ADY instead of IDY for same day from what I have both  but from what  I have read IDY would be better for a same day? Or just does not matter? I will be doing overnight refrigorated rise
What type of cheese are you using? Block? shred? part skimand how much (weight and thickness?)
Did you pre cook your sausage, or nuke your pepperoni?
Crisco vs. oil on pan
Thats lower rack at 475  20 min. right? Did you finish it on stone out of pan?
Sauce is 6 in 1 Drained or undrained?
I have the new york style pretty wired so I am excited to advance my repertiore so please anyone BTB,MM,DKM feel free to help me out I do appreciate it. Based on what I have been making with Caputo 00 I know my brain is going to tell me " this dough is not right" I have never made this shaggy/flaky type so thanks for all the pictures, They say 1000 words! Thats whats so cool about this forum.
Thanks all
JOHN

[Pete-zza]

John,

Maybe loo can help you with a dough formulation for your 14" x 2" deep-dish pan, since he is most intimately familiar with his own dough formulation, but if he can remind me of what thickness factor he uses, and how far up the side of his (straight-sided?) pan he pushes the dough, the type of salt he uses, and also whether he uses a bowl residue compensation (and, if so, what value), maybe I can help you with the dough formulation for your particular pan. With that information, I might even ask you to take a first stab at using the deep-dish dough calculating tool to get you to feel more comfortable using that tool.

As far as using ADY or IDY is concerned, there is no reason why you can't use either form of yeast in this case, although I would personally stick to the ADY to be true to loo's dough formulation. I assume that you will follow loo's dough preparation method, but what I don't offhand recall, and maybe loo can remind us, is whether he rehydrates the ADY in warm water before using in his dough formulation. He might even be able to provide a link to his dough preparation method and also offer advice on your plan to use an overnight cold rise rather than a room-temperature rise. For example, for an overnight cold fermentation, you might want to reduce the amount of ADY. Maybe loo has also tried an overnight cold fermentation.

You should also keep in mind that the amounts of sauce and fillings that loo uses with his 10" pan will be less than what you will need for your 14" pan. However, it should be possible to extrapolate from his quantities to your size pan.

Peter

[JConk007]

Thanks Peter,
I stabbed at  the calculator using loos percentagesand 14". I guess as you mentioned the thickness factor would make a difference in the formulation, about 60 G more for a .125 than a .115 thickness is this the area/range I should be using for thickness for this style? The tools really give no average ranges, as I said that is the part that has me down on all the dough tools. Is there any way to explain (reference) how thick say a .125  like 2 nickles..? is without a micrometer? if thats the right tool. That is the desired thickness after baking I assume. anyway think I have something here for 14" x 1.5" up pan looks like this

356 G flour 80%
89 G semolina 20%
4.45 G IDY 1%
13.35 G olive oil 3%
80.12 G Corn oil 18%

168% total 747.75G Sound about right?
I may bump up semolina to 25% add a touch of sugar 1% and a touch of Margarine1%  and a .5% of salt after re reading this entire thread and the BTB postings .125 thickness I hope.
Will give it whirl with pictures
John

[Pete-zza]

John,

I suggest waiting for loo to respond to be sure that we are on the right track. As for the thickness factor, it is what I believe Tom Lehmann calls a "loading" factor. It is not an actual physical thickness. For example, a dough skin with a particular thickness factor can have one physical thickness if it is not allowed to rise (proof), and another physical thickness if it is allowed to rise. The various tools were designed to give the greatest flexibility possible within the design constraints of the tools. That is one reason why the tools don't specify recommended thickness factors. However, for the Chicago deep-dish style, I would say that the range of thickness factors I have seen on the forum is about 0.11-0.14. If you read the posts that describe the various tools and their use, you will see that the tools were primarily designed to be used with known dough formulations where the baker's percents are already known (or can be ascertained) and from which thickness factors can be calculated. Of course, one can also use the tools to design new dough formulations. In such a case, one will have to select a thickness factor to use. The tools don't tell you how to do that. They only do calculations based on the inputs provided.

Peter

[JConk007]

And they are great tools! think I got it now. I will let you know how I make out this weekend, and try for a few pics of the process and results I need a substitute for the 6 in 1s not here as of yet 

John

[BTB]

Using the Deep Dish Calculating tool, I first entered a checkmark in the Thickness Factor Box, then put in a TF of .125, which is the most common for Chicago Style deep dish pizzas.  I don't know what the exact thickness is, but on subsequent trials you can increase or decrease as you like.  I then put the number 1 in the box for Desired number of dough balls.  Then checked straight-sided, then entered 14" in the Enter your pan's diameter box, then entered 1.5 in the box that indicates How far up the sides of the pan will the dough go (which is pretty standard if your pan is 2" deep)?

Then I put simply 47 in the box for Enter the desired dough hydration, which is the percentage of water.  Then I put a check mark in the ADY box and the number 1 in the box for Enter the desired commercial yeast amount to follow Loo's (not mine) suggested amount of yeast, which isn't much different from my .7 amount.  I and I think Loo generally always use and prefer ADY to IDY, but that's up to you. I highly prefer ADY for either same day or retarded (refrigerated)   Check none for salt, unless you'd like a little.

Then put in 3 in the olive oil box and 18 in the corn oil box.  Check No for whether its a stuffed pizza or not and then I added a 1.5 in the bowl residue box.  And the result shows the following formulation for a 14" deep dish pizza:

Flour (100%):    452.68 g  |  15.97 oz | 1 lbs
Water (47%):    212.76 g  |  7.5 oz | 0.47 lbs
ADY (1%):    4.53 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (3%):    13.58 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Corn Oil (15%):    67.9 g | 2.4 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.03 tbsp | 0.31 cups
Total (166%):   751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Then you have to calculate the proportion of semolina to determine what amount of all-purpose flour and semolina flour to use of the 452.68 grams (15.97 oz) designated for flour.  For an 80/20 blend that Loo used, it would be in your case for the 14" pizza 362.14 g (12.78 oz) of all-purpose flour and 90.54 g (3.19 oz) of semolina flour.

Only for Chicago Style deep dish do I drain the 6 in 1 and only for 45 minutes (otherwise it gets too dry I think).  I most often add some small diced pieces of tomatoes along with it and generally use sliced low moisture part skim mozzarella and  most often add a little provolone on top of that, but one can vary that alot, even using shredded cheese. 

Best of luck.

[JConk007]

Yep I caught that too! and used the 1.5 waste in the tool. So I am completely on board. Only wish it were the weekend now! I am now planning to do 2-9 inchers and simply use these percentages, (25% semlina as your posts got better and better)  That way I can do 1 pep. and 1 sausage. I think it will be easier to work with, and they look so sweet and deep in the photos. I will ad a touch of provolone, a tiny touch of salt and use your ADY yeast .7 %ish  How exciting! any substitute suggestions for the 6in1's?
Thanks again everybody look out New Jersey - Chicago's comin to town.

[Pete-zza]

I am not trying to jump the gun on loo on his modified Malnati dough formulation using semolina, but I did take a look at one of his Malnati clone dough formulations at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3115.msg26413/topicseen.html#msg26413. Using the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the ingredient quantities he referenced in the above post, I established that the dough is pushed 1.5 inches up the sides of his 2" pan, and that the pan is straight-sided. The nominal thickness factor is indeed 0.125. I also established that loo did not use a bowl residue compensation. However, he did use less ADY, possibly because he used cold fermentation. So, pending reply from loo, John may want to use less ADY for his 9" doughs if he still plans to use cold fermentation. loo also rehydrated the ADY in all of the formula water (warm).

Peter