Author Topic: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!  (Read 5164 times)

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Offline kickz28

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My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« on: April 03, 2008, 07:18:13 PM »
Hi! I've been reading the forum for a few weeks and really enjoy it, but here is my first post.

I looked at Jeff Varasano's website and looked at Tom Lehmann's videos on PizzaTV.

The pizzas looked good, but unfortunately didn't taste at all like I expected. They didn't taste bad at all, just not New York at all. Now I know some things were different, but I also know that people on this forum are able to make NY style pizza at home.

So here is the recipe I used (calculated with the Lehmann calculator on the front page):

Flour          100%          19.94oz
Water          60.0%         11.97oz
IDY            0.5%          0.1oz
Salt           1.9%          0.38oz
Oil            2.0%          0.4oz
Sugar          1.0%          0.2oz


The flour I used was all purpose flour. However, it is the highest protein percentage I was able to find. 13.33%. So that is pretty close to high-gluten. I don't know what temperature the dough was when I finished kneading (don't have a thermometer)... but I used room temperature water.

I kneaded it by hand (don't have a mixer yet) for about 10 minutes and it looked really good. I put it in the fridge with no cover for an hour and then put the cover on and let it overnight. Today I took it out about an hour before making the pizza. I then cooked it in my oven at 550 (max) on a pizza stone, the lowest I could in the oven.

I made 4 pizzas. The first cooked about 7-8 minutes and that was way too much. The dough wasn't soft at all, it was very crunchy. The next two I cooked 5 minutes and it was better, but still too crunchy. The next I cooked 4 minutes and it seems better, but I didn't eat it yet (will tomorrow). What could I have done wrong? What should I do different to make the dough softer and more NY-like? Like Grimaldi's?

Also, I didn't really like the sauce I made. I took a can of San Marzano tomatoes, rinsed them and then crushed them with a "boat motor". Added a bit of spices. Didn't like the sauce. Also, I found some fresh mozzarella cheese, but it had no taste at all uncooked... Is this normal?

Anyway, next time I'll do things differently like different sauce and different cheese.

Anyway, here are the pics:

Thanks!
Joey
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 07:38:35 PM by kickz28 »


Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 07:19:26 PM »
Was only able to put up one pic...

Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 07:19:54 PM »
And the third...

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 07:49:56 PM »
Joey,

Can you tell me what kind and brand of flour you used and what size pizzas you made?

Peter

Offline pcampbell

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 07:58:46 PM »
That is a very cute pizza  ;D
Patrick

Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 07:59:56 PM »
Hi Pete!

I used Duncan Hines flour....

And 10 inch pizzas, except that last tiny one. I calculated the size using the calculator.

I think next time I'll try Robin Hood bread flour (however its the same amount of protein).

By the way, is protein and gluten the same thing?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 08:37:34 PM »
Joey,

I assumed that you were using a thickness factor of around 0.10, from which I calculated a pizza size of a bit over 10" based on the dough batch size you made and the number of pizzas you made.

I assume from your reference to the Duncan Hines all-purpose flour and the Robin Hood bread flour that you are in Canada. As between the two flours, I would say that the Robin Hood bread flour is the better choice for the NY style. If you have the Five Roses bread flour, that is also a good choice.

The Grimaldi's pizza you mentioned is a so-called "elite" NY style. The Lehmann NY style is a so-called NY "street" style. To make the Grimaldi's style, you would want to use high-gluten flour and a much smaller thickness factor. As you will see if you read this post, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3669.msg54056/topicseen.html#msg54056 (Reply 16), the thickness factor should be around 0.055 for a Grimaldi's NY style pizza. However, even if you can come up with a dough formulation that is close to the Grimaldi's dough, you would need a very high temperature oven to get comparable results. Baking identical doughs in a home oven and a commercial coal-fired oven as used by Grimaldi's will produce markedly different results. So, the first thing you should determine before proceeding further is exactly what kind of pizza you are after in terms of crust characteristics. It is possible to use high levels of sugar and oil to get increased softness and tenderness, but that is a decision that can be made once you determine what kind of pizza you are after.

Gluten and protein are related. There are two proteins in flour, glutenin and gliaden, that form gluten when water is added to the flour and mixed together. Gluten does not technically exist in the flour before then.

Peter

Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 09:21:58 PM »

Peter,

Thanks for the comments/suggestions!

You are right, I used a thickness factor of .105 in the calculator. I'll try a .05 TF next time.

Next time I will use Robin Hood bread flour. I do have Five Roses up here in Canada, however I didn't find anything else than Five Roses all purpose... no bread flour.

You are right, I did get mixed up between street style and elite style NY pizza. I much prefer elite style. I do realize that you can't make it exactly like they do it using an electric oven when they use a brick oven (I intend on building a brick oven this summer).

I don't mind adding some sugar to get it softer.

So what's a good recipe to get close to elite style in an electric oven? (and also for a brick oven as I might build one this summer).

The Lehmann calculator is no good for this type of dough or is it still good, as long as I put a low TF?

I'm not looking to make the best pizza in the world, I'm looking to make a really good pizza in the style of the NYC elites.

Thanks! Really appreciate it!

Edit: I'm not the best at expressing what I want to say. What I meant to say is, other than the thickness factor and obviously the oven, is the dough recipe pretty much the same for street style vs elite style dough?
Joey
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 09:38:33 PM by kickz28 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 09:49:26 PM »
Joey,

You can definitely use the Lehmann dough calculating tool for your purposes.

I would use the 0.055 thickness factor in the tool along with all of the baker's percents and other inputs called for by the tool. I think I would try around 3% oil and 2% sugar to start and see if that gives you a soft enough crust. If you are using bread flour, you might also up the hydration to around 62%, which should produce a slightly softer crust. As you can see, some experimentation will be required to adapt the dough recipe to your particular oven. Usually, oil and sugar are not used in the elite NY styles, but in a home oven they may one of the few ways of getting softness in the finished crust. You might also let the skins proof for about a half hour to an hour before dressing and baking. That should help get a better rise in the dough. I think I would still stick with the highest oven temperature that your oven can produce. Otherwise, the crust can become crispy and dry if the bake is too long.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Offline mzshan

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 10:42:00 PM »
Where In canada do you live???????

I hope its in ontario or better near GTA!!!!

If so I am very much intersted when you plan on constructing your Brick Pizza oven. I like to see construction and be a part of it start to finish.
I my self am very much intersted in building one in my backyard. but have no skill set on how to build one I assume you do.

here is what i was thinking. I can tell you all that you need to know about pizza making A to Z.. ( I am a chef and an avid Pizza fan)
in return I help you build the pizza oven and possibly get you to build one with my assistance in my backyard.
Last but not least we can Cook up some amazing pizza's...

shan

Street and Elite Style!!!!



Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 08:53:26 AM »
mzshan,

I just replied to your email. Unfortunately, I'm far from Toronto, I'm in Quebec City!

However, I have no skills at all in masonry, but I plan on learning as I go. I don't want a fancy oven, just one that will cook great pizza!  :pizza:


Thanks for the offer though!
Joey

Offline kickz28

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NY Style Take 2
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 09:02:14 PM »
Pete, I took your suggestions and made another dough yesterday morning and cooked it tonight. Well, this time it was about 100 times better than the last. The dough was nice and chewy... last time it was crunchy like chips... Amazing..

This time I didn't use any fancy tomatoes, I used a canned sauce. Before you laugh, I've been using this sauce for at least 15 years (well my mom used it), and its exactly the taste I look for in a sauce... I love it.

I also used Saputo Mozz cheese which tastes much better than the fresh mozz I bought last time.

Anyway, thanks pizzamaking for helping me make the best pie I ever made!

Here is a pic:



Oh by the way, this one was in the fridge for about 32 hours, and I have more dough that will stay in an additional 3 days, just to see how that tastes.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 09:03:50 PM by kickz28 »

Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 09:17:59 PM »
2 things I forgot to mention:

For this pizza, I used Robin hood Best for Bread flour.

I preheated the oven at 550 for about 15 minutes (or until it rang ready) and the pizza cooked in 3 and a half minutes... thats pretty quick for a regular kitchen oven isn't it?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2008, 09:37:07 PM »
Joey,

I'm glad things turned out better this time. However, I am puzzled how you could bake a pizza, even a 10" pizza, in about 3 1/2 minutes on a pizza stone that was preheated for only 15 minutes. Usually, the stone is preheated for about an hour and, even then, it will usually take longer than 3 1/2 minutes to bake a pizza at a stone temperature of around 550 degrees F. I modified the original dough formulation to hopefully use a short bake time at a high temperature so that the pizza would bake faster and not dry out, but without burning on the bottom because of the level of sugar in the dough. Did you take the temperature of the stone? And is your oven an electric oven? I have an electric oven and a 10" pizza will take around 6 minutes to bake on a pizza stone that has been preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F, with the stone on the lowest oven rack position.

Peter

Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 09:49:03 PM »
Peter...

I have no idea how? Maybe my oven is not well calibrated and its hotter than its supposed to be? (but even then I doubt it would be much higher)

But yes, its a regular electric oven. Its a EuroDesign by Frigidaire. It doesn't have a self cleaning cycle so I can't use that.

Oh by the way, this pizza was 12 inch. But one thing that's sure is that it took 3 1/2 minutes because I put the timer at 4 minutes and I watched it and took it out when there was 30 seconds left.

I didn't take the temperature of the stone, how would I go about doing that?

Next time I cook a pie I'll film it and see if I can post the video on youtube... that will have to wait probably until saturday (hopefully the dough will still be good by then?)

Thanks!
Joey
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 09:59:47 PM by kickz28 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2008, 10:26:09 PM »
Joey,

I have an infrared thermometer to take the temperature of the stone. Before getting the IR thermometer, I used a Taylor oven thermometer with a maximum scale reading of 600 degrees F.

Out of curiosity, tonight I set my oven to its highest temperature setting and preheated my stone (on the lowest oven rack position) until the heating light went off. That took about 16 minutes. The temperature of the stone at that point was 530 degrees F. As I continued to measure the stone temperature, it dropped by about 50 degrees. The lower heating element kicked back in at that point. I know from experience that I wouldn't be able to bake a 12" pizza on my stone, even with an hour preheat time, within 3 1/2 minutes.

Since you have some dough left, you may want to note the times and temperature when you use that dough to make a pizza. I believe the dough should hold our for three more days, but it may be fairly extensible (stretchy). A video would be a good idea also.

Peter


Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2008, 10:39:30 PM »
Joey,

I have an infrared thermometer to take the temperature of the stone. Before getting the IR thermometer, I used a Taylor oven thermometer with a maximum scale reading of 600 degrees F.

Out of curiosity, tonight I set my oven to its highest temperature setting and preheated my stone (on the lowest oven rack position) until the heating light went off. That took about 16 minutes. The temperature of the stone at that point was 530 degrees F. As I continued to measure the stone temperature, it dropped by about 50 degrees. The lower heating element kicked back in at that point. I know from experience that I wouldn't be able to bake a 12" pizza on my stone, even with an hour preheat time, within 3 1/2 minutes.

Since you have some dough left, you may want to note the times and temperature when you use that dough to make a pizza. I believe the dough should hold our for three more days, but it may be fairly extensible (stretchy). A video would be a good idea also.

Peter



In my case, I turned the oven on and put in the stone immediately. I think it takes about 15 minutes, but I didn't check the time. When the oven is ready, it rings. I put the pizza in about 2-3 minutes after that.

When you say note the time, you mean, as in the time it was in the fridge. Well, I made the dough yesterday morning and put it in the fridge at 10:30am. I took it out of the fridge at  6:30pm and started shaping it at about 7:45pm. Cooked it at 8pm. The oven was at 550 (the highest my oven goes).

I won't have time before saturday to cook another, but I'll be sure to post a video, and hopefully the dough will still be good.

Thanks!
Joey

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2008, 10:47:07 PM »
Joey,

The times I was referring to is the time it takes the stone to get to the desired temperature (when the oven "rings") and the time it takes to bake the pizza once it goes onto the stone. I believe these are the same times you logged in for the most recent pizza. I meant to ask you before, but is your oven a convection oven by any chance?

Peter

Offline kickz28

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2008, 08:28:41 AM »
Joey,

The times I was referring to is the time it takes the stone to get to the desired temperature (when the oven "rings") and the time it takes to bake the pizza once it goes onto the stone. I believe these are the same times you logged in for the most recent pizza. I meant to ask you before, but is your oven a convection oven by any chance?

Peter

Nope... regular oven.

Its almost the same as this one:

http://www.frigidairecanada.ca/frigidaire2008/english/product.asp?pid=101

Oh I forgot to ask, how much does an infrared thermometer cost? (approx.)

Thanks!
Joey

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Re: My first NY Style (with pics)... need help!
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2008, 09:48:26 AM »
Oh I forgot to ask, how much does an infrared thermometer cost? (approx.)

Joey,

I have an Extech 42530 unit such as shown and described at http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/extech/thermometers/42530.htm. However, there are other members who have been using other brands and models, some of which are less expensive than the one I have. I use mine for just about all temperature measurements, not only oven temperatures. The value of IR thermometers is greatest for measuring temperatures of high temperature ovens, such as those that exceed 700 degrees F and sometimes up to over 1000 degrees F. With my home oven temperatures, I perhaps don't really "need" an IR thermometer but I like its convenience of use and its broad utility.

Peter