Author Topic: Napoletana Dough and Oil.  (Read 4907 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline givearats

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
  • Location: California
Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« on: February 28, 2008, 01:59:11 AM »
If you are making traditional Napoletana pizza, when you make and divide the dough would you coat it with oil before fermentation?
Would that be considered adding oil to the dough?
If you don't use oil , what would be the best way to store the dough while fermenting?
I am new to pizza making and was curious about trying out a Napoletana dough.

Thanks for any comments

    givearats


Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2008, 05:15:07 AM »
If you are cooking with traditional Neapolitan ingredients and temperatures, oil, even scant coats to prevent drying, is said to be detrimental, although I have not verified this claim. I store the dough sealed in plastic containers during fermenting and proofing.

Bill/SFNM

Offline givearats

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
  • Location: California
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2008, 10:15:23 PM »
Thanks Bill,
I like the container idea. I'll pick some up and give it a try without the oil.
They'll also be a lot easier to stack in the fridge than the zip top bags.

   givearats

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2008, 10:36:02 PM »
I punch a small hole in each of the lids to allow gases to escape.

Offline givearats

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
  • Location: California
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2008, 11:03:32 PM »
Is the oil in the dough mainly for browning, or does it also make the dough easier to work with?


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22449
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 08:05:39 AM »
Is the oil in the dough mainly for browning, or does it also make the dough easier to work with?



givearats,

Both, but to a degree, it depends on how much oil is used in the dough. There are also other purposes for using oil in pizza dough, as discussed here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5273.msg44761/topicseen.html#msg44761 (Reply 1).

Peter


Offline givearats

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
  • Location: California
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 05:37:45 PM »
Thanks Peter,
I appreciate the information.
I tried Peter Reinhart's Napolenta Pizza Dough Recipe from his Bread Bakers Apprentice book. The oil was optional. I used it but didn't like the texture or taste.
You can check it out here.
http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/001199.html


   givearats

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22449
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 06:25:56 PM »
givearats,

Some of our members have had problems with the Reinhart Bread Baker's Apprentice recipe you referenced. I had not seen it before but now I can see why they have struggled with it. For one thing, the hydration is around 69%, which will give most people problems from a dough handling standpoint, and more so if all-purpose flour is used instead of high-gluten flour (the rated absorption for all-purpose flour is around 61%). The high hydration might also lead to problems with the dough sticking to the peel. The oil level is also high, at almost 10%, which is a level that one is more likely to see in a dough for a deep-dish pizza. The recipe also calls for using chilled flour and water at 40 degrees F so that the finished dough temperature is around 50-55 degrees F. Most people will find that dough temperature too low, although it will help extend the useful life of the dough if that is an objective.

Did you have any problems with the recipe when you tried it and, if so, what problems did you encounter? Was the oil your only concern? Since Reinhart's later dough recipes are so much different than the one you referenced, I suspect he learned a lot more about pizza dough between his Bread Baker's Apprentice book and his book American Pie. You would have to be a real pro with a lot of skill at handling high hydration doughs to be able to practice the recipe you referenced.

Peter

Offline DieselAddict

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2008, 11:26:50 PM »
I don't add any oil to the dough but I do give each of the containers a drop or two of olive oil. This helps to release the dough from the container when its time to bake. I don't know if that is consider adding oil but it does make a difference in getting the dough out without deflating it too much.

Offline Pedroizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 12:09:34 AM »
I have tried Reinhart Bread Baker's Apprentice recipe using King Arthur Bread Flour and the optional oil on a couple of occasions and had mediocre results.  The dough was difficult to handle, thinning out too easily, but the center never crisps up, even on a full sized pizza stone with the oven at 500.  I am looking for a better recipe.  Looking for suggestions.


Offline givearats

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
  • Location: California
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 01:28:57 AM »
I was using a higher protein flour so that helped absorb more liquid. I still had to add 2 or 3 tablespoons of flour while mixing and a lot more than usual on the counter working with the dough to make it work for me.

Sorry,
I should have mentioned this in the post.


   givearats

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22449
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 09:10:44 AM »
Looking for suggestions.

Pedroizza,

It all depends what you are looking for. I personally don't consider the Reinhart dough recipe to be representative of the Neapolitan style. The classic Neapolitan style recipe as practiced in Naples uses only flour, water, salt and yeast--and no oil and no sugar. The flour is 00 flour, although you will sometimes see recipes that call for blends of our domestic U.S. flours to simulate 00 flour where 00 flour is not available. Even in his book, American Pie, Peter Reinhart did not recommend 00 flour for his Neapolitan style recipe even though he was well aware of its use through his travels abroad, including Naples, that preceded the book. At the time of his book, 00 flours were hard to come by by home pizza makers, even at the wholesale level, so it didn't make sense to provide a recipe that home pizza makers--the market for his book--could not make. But even where the 00 flour is available, it is best used in the context of a very high temperature oven. When used in a standard home oven setting, the dough and pizza will bake out quite differently than in a high temperature oven, and it may even be necessary to add oil to the dough to keep the crust from becoming a cracker, and to make other adjustments. The authentic Neapolitan doughs are also fermented/proofed at room temperature, not in a cold environment such as with the Reinhart recipe in his Bread Baker's Apprentice book, although there are people who have adapted doughs using 00 flour to a cold fermentation environment.

So, the threshhold question is what kind of pizza do you want to make? Once that is known, it should be possible to point you to some possible dough recipes.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22449
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 09:17:42 AM »
I was using a higher protein flour so that helped absorb more liquid. I still had to add 2 or 3 tablespoons of flour while mixing and a lot more than usual on the counter working with the dough to make it work for me.

givearats,

I am always intrigued by dough recipes that are markedly different from the ones I have played around with, so it is quite likely that I will try the Bread Baker's Apprentice dough recipe you referenced if only to satisfy my curiosity. I will try to practice the recipe as closely as possible, and use olive oil. I will also use all-purpose flour.

Peter

Offline Pedroizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 01:53:13 PM »
Pete-zza,

Thanks for the feedback.  I understand the limitations of a home oven -- just not hot enough.  I think that I am able, however, to get Caputo 00 pizza flour from a local Italian food supplier, Ital Gourmet, in Los Angeles.  (I plan to go there next week.) 

Most commercial pizzas are too greasy and overloaded with toppings, even if it is only cheese.  From my trips to Italy years ago when I was a kid, I remember the pizza had a crust that has body and taste and does not flop over like a wet noodle when holding it, and had a thin layer of sauce and a gentle layer of cheese and herbs or prosciutto.  That's what I am looking for.

Pedroizza

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22449
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2008, 03:51:35 PM »
Pedroizza,

Once you have the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour (I mean the Pizzeria flour, not the Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour), and you know what kind of oven you plan to use, you will be able to find many recipes on the forum that should meet your needs, including those that use commercial yeast, natural starters/preferments, and room temperature and cold fermentation. Let us know if you need help.

Peter

Offline Bobby Martino

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2008, 11:58:33 AM »
Using oil in the dough for authentic Napoletana pizza is strictly forbbiden by the Rules of the DOC and un necessary.  Dialing in your recipe with your equipment is the key to producing a consistent result that you are happy with.  More times than not the addition of oil to the dough produces either burning or golden browning which is a less desirable characteristic of Napoletana.  Dough with oil used in a wood oven generally works best after a longer fermentation but is more suseptable to breakdown after a lengthy fermentation requiring the use of a rolling pin which also is forbidden by the Rules of the
DOC as well.  Some may say that rules are meant to bend or break however, if one looks closely at the reason for DOC not just for pizza but applied to a wide range of food products, it is easy to understand the necessity.  DOC was created to tie traditional names with quality levels and regions to assure the consumer of a standard of quality to be expected from name recognition.  Pizza police maybe but perseverence and committment for sure.  Use your oil on the dough not in it and remember that pizza was originally the food of peasants and was eaten with lard first and olive oil second.  Olive oil is certainly a big improvement. :chef:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 12:01:15 PM by Bobby Martino »

Offline fabio

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 95
  • Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 03:47:48 AM »
Bobby,

I wasn't aware that there was a DOC spec for pizza . . . do you mean VPN? I thought DOC was only for cheese and wine.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2008, 07:56:56 AM »
Bobby,

I wasn't aware that there was a DOC spec for pizza . . . do you mean VPN? I thought DOC was only for cheese and wine.

In 1998 the Ente Nazionale Italiano di Unificazione established a Denominazione di Origine Controllata (D.O.C.), protecting verace pizza napoletana (Margherita and pizza marinara).

 

Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2008, 01:25:11 PM »
In 1998 the Ente Nazionale Italiano di Unificazione established a Denominazione di Origine Controllata (D.O.C.), protecting verace pizza napoletana (Margherita and pizza marinara).

 

The VPN organisation is in the process of gaining European STG status for Pizza Napoletana within the next six months also.News of this information can be found here:

http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/viewnews_eng.php?n=80
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 959
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Napoletana Dough and Oil.
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2008, 04:26:40 AM »
I have covered this many time before, but I'll do it once again. The DOC was wrongly used to make it easier to understand what the organizations involved were trying to achieve.

DOC or DOP would involve an "Origin", a location, were the product is produced. This would have mean that Pizza Napoletana could only ever be produced in a specified area, aka Naples.

The goal was instead that Pizza Napoletana could have been produced anywhere but guaranteeing a method of production and selection of ingredient so that would reflect the traditional pizza of Naples.

STG stands for "Specialitá Tradizionale Grantita" or as I would translate it, Guaranteed Traditional Specialty, and it is the right designation for Pizza Napoletana.

Mozzarella and other typical products are covered by DOP (Di Origine protetta or "Of Protected Origin") and wine by DOC (Di Origine Controllata or "Of Controlled Origin").

Ciao