Author Topic: newbie looking for help  (Read 2330 times)

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Offline thegoodpie

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newbie looking for help
« on: March 15, 2008, 02:15:20 AM »
I'm going to be opening a neapolitan pizzeria.  I'm working on getting the right oven, but want to start thinking about systems for running the joint.  I have years of experiance in fine dining and will need to learn the proper way to handle dough from mixing, through to the oven

I was thinking of ordering one of those neapolitan starters from sourdoughs int. 

recipe i pieced together from the board...

100% caputo oo
63% water
3% salt
5% starter

20 hr room raise, 2 day refrigeration, 2hr proof 900 degree oven for 60-90 sec

To impart a bit of sour in the dough, is it best to keep working off a sourdough starter or to just mix some percentage of old dough in with each new batch...

I appreciate any feedback and am very happy to have found this site, seems like a great ally, so thx

also any suggestions on a mixer... was looking at a rondo spiral mixer, better than a hobart? :pizza:


Offline thegoodpie

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2008, 11:39:02 AM »
anyone? ??? ???

Offline Art

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 12:01:09 PM »
I think the info you're looking here might better be found here.
http://www.pmq.com/
When baking, follow directions.  When cooking, go by your own taste.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2008, 12:04:40 PM »
Hi thegoodpie,
Sometimes the timing of information is priceless so I'll throw my two cents in as I have read your previous posts with great interest. I always admire those who come to the table and throw the gauntlet down on quality pizza.

I know first hand a few things about Neapolitan pizza and my recommendation(s) would depend on how authentic you're gunning for. Having said that, here is my high-level response.

If the answer is 100% Neapolitan than you need to open your checkbook in the direction of pizzanapoletana and ask him to guide you every step of the way. He is the proven approach. I would even suggest to hire him as a paid consultant. Bad Neapolitan pizza is all to easy to make so proceed carefully.

If you are not going for 100% authentic then you need to determine where you will cut corners. I would not suggest cutting corners on the mixer or oven. Therefore, I would recommend a fork mixer, preferably a Pietro Berto and one of pizzanapoletana's ovens. If budget is a concern (as it always is) there are cheaper alternatives but you would be wise to consult with an expert like pizzanapoletana who can craft an End-To-End solution which exactly meets your needs.

A few comments about your recipe:
- Your salt level is very high and could lead to "gummy" crust
- Your hydration level is bordering on high and will be much more difficult to work with than say 60%.
- Your rise seems to combine two separate approaches and is way too long as a result. Either stay with a refrigerated rise or stick with a room temperature rise but not both.
- Finally, a spiral mixer is okay but not traditional. A fork mixer is what some of the elite Neapolitan pizzerias use in Naples.

Let me know how else I can help.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 01:30:17 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline thegoodpie

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2008, 12:15:45 PM »
thx for the reply, I've been in contact with marco and am just waiting for some further pricing info, I'm not going to skimp on the oven as i see this as the most crucial part to good neapolitan pizza.  I'll look into the fork mixers, but again to me the oven is the most crucial and most expensive element...besides maybe plumbing out a restaurant >:(...

As far as the dough is concerned

100% caputo oo
60% water
2% salt
5% starter

as far as the rise, obvioulsy room temp rise is the easiest and takes up much less refrigeration.  Lets say I mix, rise,punch, move to surface, rise and portion to 9oz, put in proper container and let rise for 20hrs...then what? leave at room temp till used? does leaving the dough at room temp for a day or two have any ill-effects? I want to impart a good deal of sourness to the dough,

Thank goodness for the internet, bringing similarly interested people together,
even though its very un-italian, cheers and happy St Pats to everyone, thx for the help :)


Offline thegoodpie

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2008, 12:23:08 PM »
also, would a  56 liters (14 gal) fork mixer be large enough for a 50# bag of flour? i believe its 56 qts, i know a 60qt should be large enough, any thoughts?

Offline pftaylor

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2008, 01:28:08 PM »
I hate to give you a consultant's response on the mixer but it depends. I would venture to say that you need to determine if a smaller mixer will be suitable for your daily volume projections. There is nothing wrong (other than time) with making a couple of batches on high volume busy days. My personal position is that mixers are much like money, you can't have too much. So I would buy the biggest mixer I could afford and implement a robust marketing plan to maximize the ROI.

Regarding your revised formula, I have concerns with the percentage of starter relative to the rise time and the temperature. Frankly, a cold rise is much easier to delegate to employees than a room temperature rise but Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour and starters seem to do better with room temperature rises.

I would consult with Marco on a commercial dough management process exactly suited for your unique set of circumstances. Just know that what you do in August will likely be different than what you do in February. Every ingredient will likely have a sliding scale in order to produce consistent results throughout the year.
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Offline fabio

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 03:27:53 AM »
BIG FAT WARNING: I am not by any means an expert or a consultant, so take this with a very large grain of salt; if your speaking with Marco, please verify this with him.

Regarding imparting a strong sourness to the dough, I have two suggestions: 1) use a sour starter, such as Ischia (one of the italian starters from sourdough int.), 2) use a 4-6 day cold ferment with a 90-minute-or-so proof. Warning: may lead to  :-X

I wish you well, keep us informed.

Offline thegoodpie

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2008, 08:27:07 PM »
Signed my lease last thursday, My first purchase, tomorrow, will be my 120cm oven from Marco.
Should be about a month before the oven arrives in st louis.  Anyone had sucess with a room temp rise? i'm thinking this will make the dough handling easier as well as ease refrigeration concerns.  Anyways Looking forward to a late july opening, and christmas in june, when the oven arrives.

Offline fabio

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Re: newbie looking for help
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2008, 09:44:51 PM »
I swear by slow room temp rise (about 24hrs). I do a bulk rise at room temp for 21 hours and then shape into balls and do another 3-4 hour room-temp rise.

EDIT: That's using 1% of camaldoli starter by flour.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 09:59:52 PM by fabio »