Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza

[Pete-zza]

Michelle,

I'm glad to see that you liked the "sponge"/cold ferment version of JerryMac's recipe. I've had a lot of fun and have learned a lot about commercial yeast preferments playing around with Jerry's fine recipe. I think it takes me longer to write up and take photos of what I have done than to actually make the pizza .

Peter

[Mad_Ernie]

This week (yesterday) I finally got around to trying Pete's cold rise version of the Jerry Mac recipe (last week was a Chicago-style deep dish).  I used KABF and made a 14" pizza.  3 hours on the sponge preferment, a little over 48 hours in the fridge.

I also found that it benefited from being kneaded briefly when finally taken out of the fridge to assist in shaping after a 2 hour warm up.

After the 2 hours, I shaped it on my Silicone Zone pizza mat, I let it rest 20 minutes so that the rim wouldn't pull back too much.  I dressed the dough lightly with a mixture of minced garlic (3 cloves) and 1 Tablespoon of olive oil that was simmered until the garlic just started to color.  I do the oil ahead and let it cool so I can smear it on the dough with my fingers.  I then seasoned with a little fresh-ground black pepper and a sprinkling of kosher salt.  Sauce was Mario Batali's Basic Tomato Sauce.  Toppings were Central Market fresh mozzarella, fresh basil, sliced pepperoni, sliced pepperocini, and a dusting of parmeggiano reggiano (our standard pizza).

Since it was cool and windy here, this was done in the oven rather than the Big Green Egg, at 500 F.  My pizza stone was on the middle rack.  I used "bake" rather than "convection", since I find that works best in my Monogram oven.  This was the first time I've done pizza on the middle rack rather than the bottom one; I'd last baked some artisan bread and had forgotten to move the stone before preheating.  I started with the pizza on the silicone mat, but pulled the mat out from under the pizza after a few minutes so there could be direct contact with the stone.

Fabulous flavor, browning, and crispness!  Oh, and great oven spring - my best rim yet!  This one is a keeper and will be made as long as I remember "hey, it's Wednesday - time to make the dough" for our weekly Friday pizza.  And I will definitely leave the stone in the middle rack position.

Michelle

Oddly enough, I also finally got around to trying Peter's cold-rise JerryMac recipe this past weekend.  I followed the instructions Peter gave, except to mix the ingredients, I used a Cuisinart food processor (a new toy I just bought and have been itching to try out).  The initial dough rise was 3 hours, as Peter had done.  I noticed a fair amount of expansion but maybe not quite a doubling of the volume.  I then added the remaining amount of ingredients, placed the dough ball in an oiled bowl, covered with plastic wrap and placed in the refrigerator.  I left the dough in the frig for about 14 hours. 

Upon removing the dough, it appeared to have more than doubled in size with a couple large gas bubbles, but had not pushed off the plastic wrap cover.  I briefling kneaded the dough with folding about 3 times and laid the dough ball back into the bowl, recovered.  I let the dough rise at room temperature for about 2.5 hours.  The dough had risen again with more air bubbles (quite gassy as Peter described).  At this point, I decided the dough I had would make 1 very large pizza or 2 small pizzas, so I split the dough ball and made 2 pizzas of about 11" each, also using a silicone mat like Michelle did.

They both came out fine.  Plenty of spring, as Michelle has noted.  Pictures and more details on the finished product will come later.  Like Peter, I am not as quick on the picture thing as I am on making pizza.  

Overall, I'd say it was definitely a winner.  

-ME

[Pete-zza]

ME,

I'd love to see some photos of your pizzas, even if only for comparison purposes.

It was interesting to learn that you were able to use a food processor to make the dough, given its high hydration. Did you make the sponge in the food processor and finish the dough (the "final mix") in the processor also? I would have thought that the food processor would have a hard time kneading such a very high hydration dough without gumming up the works by having the dough seep under the blade and rendering the blade immobile. I wondered whether you added more flour to the food processor to get a workable dough. If you were able to avoid adding more flour to the processor bowl, that suggests that one may be able to make a hand-kneaded version of the dough, and possibly a bread machine version also.

The key point to keep in mind about the sponge, as with a poolish, is the break point. That is the point where the sponge starts to collapse after peaking. At the time of peaking, the top of the dough will usually be convex (like an upside down "U") with a lot of bubbles. When the sponge breaks, the surface becomes concave (like a right side up "U") and wrinkled. It will be obvious, especially if a lot of yeast is used, as is the case with Jerry's recipe. I have read that you don't have to immediately use the sponge at the moment it breaks, but one shouldn't delay such use for too long. I have waited an hour after the break point and found that it worked fine. All else being equal, the time it takes to reach the break point will be determined principally by the room temperature. It will happen sooner with a "summer time" sponge than with a "winter time" sponge. So, it is a good idea to allow enough time for the sponge to reach the break point before proceeding to the final mix.

Peter

[mkc]

I think it takes me longer to write up and take photos of what I have done than to actually make the pizza .

Peter

Well, I for one (and I'm sure there are many others) are very grateful for the time and effort you put into translating your experiments and observations into text and photos.  Even though I've been making my own pizza for over 15 years, I learn something from each of your posts and they help me keep raising the bar on what I can achieve with my pizzas.  It helps especially (IIRC) that you're also from the Metroplex area, so we share some of the same climate, water chemistry, and ingredient availability.

Michelle

[Pete-zza]

Michele,

Thank you for the kind words.

We don't get a lot of feedback on the forum so it is hard to say whether I have raised the bar or lowered it, or simply scared people away. In some respects, I think the dough calculating tools and November's tools have helped lower the bar by freeing people from being locked into the constraints of recipes, pizza sizes, styles, etc. I have been impressed by how quickly some members have been able to use the tools to do their own recipe modification and to come up with new and original formulations. Unfortunately, too many such people leave the forum once they have succeeded.

Peter

[Mad_Ernie]

ME,

I'd love to see some photos of your pizzas, even if only for comparison purposes.

It was interesting to learn that you were able to use a food processor to make the dough, given its high hydration. Did you make the sponge in the food processor and finish the dough (the "final mix") in the processor also? I would have thought that the food processor would have a hard time kneading such a very high hydration dough without gumming up the works by having the dough seep under the blade and rendering the blade immobile. I wondered whether you added more flour to the food processor to get a workable dough. If you were able to avoid adding more flour to the processor bowl, that suggests that one may be able to make a hand-kneaded version of the dough, and possibly a bread machine version also.

The key point to keep in mind about the sponge, as with a poolish, is the break point. That is the point where the sponge starts to collapse after peaking. At the time of peaking, the top of the dough will usually be convex (like an upside down "U") with a lot of bubbles. When the sponge breaks, the surface becomes concave (like a right side up "U") and wrinkled. It will be obvious, especially if a lot of yeast is used, as is the case with Jerry's recipe. I have read that you don't have to immediately use the sponge at the moment it breaks, but one shouldn't delay such use for too long. I have waited an hour after the break point and found that it worked fine. All else being equal, the time it takes to reach the break point will be determined principally by the room temperature. It will happen sooner with a "summer time" sponge than with a "winter time" sponge. So, it is a good idea to allow enough time for the sponge to reach the break point before proceeding to the final mix.

Peter

Peter,

As soon as I can get my wife to download the photos to the computer, I'll post them.

The food processor was my own twist on the cold rise JerryMac recipe.  I did indeed make the sponge in the processor and added the final mix in there, as well.  As you said, I did notice some hanging up of the food processor after adding the remaining ingredients, but I simply stopped-started the machine and it got the job done.  Consequently, my sponge looked different that what you described and the picture you posted.  I did not take a picture of the sponge, only of the final product(s).  I did not try to let it knead for 3 minutes.  It was more like half that time.  I am wondering if I had added, say a few more tablespoons of bread flour, if it would have made it easier on the Cuisinart. 

The model of food processor I bought and used is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-DLC-2011BCN-Processor-Brushed-Chrome/dp/B00004WKI1/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1226946711&sr=1-5

Cuisinart also makes a 14-cup model, which may be the only volume they produce in this model now.  I bought mine at Bed Bath & Beyond.  It comes with a dough blade and function.  My original reason for buying one (besides needing a larger food processor) was to use it in making the Round Table pizza clone dough, but since I have been wanting to try this recipe since you posted it, I thought I'd try it and see if the machine would work and cut the mustard (or dough in this case).

Thanks for the info on the break time.   

-ME

[Mad_Ernie]

Here are the photos of my Pete-zza modified JerryMac recipe from November 15th.  Refer to my post up above for my previous comments.  Notice the expansion and gas bubbles after the refrigerated rise. 

I had a couple more close ups of the crust-spring, but they were too blurry to post.  I must have either used a bad setting on our camera or got too close. 

All-in-all, an experiment that came out quite well.  I will probably use again, but in the meantime I like to try different recipes.  I'll probably go back to trying my Round Table clone this next weekend after all of the turkey.

[Mad_Ernie]

... and some more photos from the same experiment.  I used Italian sausage, mushrooms, and tomatoes on the first pizza with a tangier sauce and the second pizza used a milder sauce with just the sausage and mushrooms.  The cheese was a standard mix of mozz, provolone, and cheddar, only I upped the amount of prov and cheddar for these pies.

I am inclined to agree with Peter regarding the dough in that I think this could be hand-kneaded as opposed to a mixer or food processor, although I think it would take someone with experience due mainly to the consistency of the dough.

[Pete-zza]

ME,

Thank you for posting the photos. I did not experience anywhere near the activity that your dough did. As previously reported, in my case the dough pushed up against the lid of my container but it was a gentle push with no signs of large bubbles or anything like that.

As I also previously noted, I think that the preferment method with so much yeast is hard on sugar creation (it depletes it quickly), making it difficult to get more color in the finished crust, even with a fair amount of added sugar (or honey or barley malt syrup). I think crust coloration might be improved by using considerably less yeast (and maybe a longer preferment time) if the dough is to be cold fermented.

Peter

[mkc]

ME,

Thank you for posting the photos. I did not experience anywhere near the activity that your dough did.

As I also previously noted, I think that the preferment method with so much yeast is hard on sugar creation, making it difficult to get more color in the finished crust, even with a fair amount of added sugar (or honey or barley malt syrup).

Pete,

I also haven't had quite the dough activity that Mad_Ernie did.  I've done 2 Pete-zaa Jerry-Mac recipes, and while airier and lighter after the cold rise, I didn't see the large air bubbles.  Of note, my fridge is 36-37 degrees and the dough is stored in my 3 qt. metal Kitchenaid mixer bowl.  Perhaps ME's fridge is warmer than that?

With my preheated 500 degree stone on "bake" in my oven, I get outstanding crust coloration, particularly on the bottom.  I do dust my silicon pizza mat with a little semolina flour first, and pull the mat out from under the pizza after I start to see the crust crisping away from the mat (just a few minutes).  I do also dress the top of the skin with the garlic olive oil I mentioned in my post, "brushing/smearing" in on with my fingers and covering the rim as well so the edge gets a nice speckling of dark.  I will try to get some photos of the next one (tonight) and try to get them posted.

Maybe I'll remember to photograph the residual-heat artisan bread, too.

Michelle

[mkc]

As promised, here are some photos (hope I do this right) of my second and third "Pete-zaa JerryMac NY Style":

First crust is pie 2, last photo is pie 2, pepperoni and pepperocini.

Second crust and third photo are pie 3, pepperoni and pickled red jalapenos

I hadn't photographed the first pie I made with this method. 

[mkc]

And here's the artisan rye bread I baked with the residual heat from pie 1

[LisaMT]

Hi,

I am new to this site, I have been lurking for awhile and finally registered last weekend. Pizza is my first love (don't tell my husband  ).

My questions, I just made the poolish and realized after the fact that you used KA bread flour, I used KASL. will my pizza still work?

Thanks and love the site,
Lisa

[Pete-zza]

My questions, I just made the poolish and realized after the fact that you used KA bread flour, I used KASL. will my pizza still work?

Lisa,

It should still work. Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

[LisaMT]

Hi,

Just finished the pizza made with KASL; it turned out well. My only issue, the pizza lacked the crispiness of a NY pizza. I am pretty sure I know why. I baked the pizza on a 16" perforated disk in a 500 degree oven on a pizza stone. I think I should have baked it longer (I baked for 10min) or slipped it off the disk directly onto the stone for an additional 5 minutes.

One more issue, the dough tasted okay, but the crust had a dull look to it, not sure what can be done about that. All in all the dough stretched beautifully and my husband said it was delicious. Personally, I think I can do better .

[Pete-zza]

Lisa,

It is also possible that the high sugar content of the dough formulation, in the form of honey or barley malt syrup, is responsible for the tenderness and reduced crispness of the finished crust that you experienced. The classic NY style crust uses no sugar. The dough formulation you used calls for about 4.7%, which is a lot of sugar and will produce a softness in the finished crust because sugar is hygroscopic and attracts and retains water. You could leave the sugar out but if you do that you will perhaps not have enough residual sugar in the dough to contribute to decent crust coloration at the time of baking. A good part of the problem is that a high-hydration preferment like a poolish is a very active preferment and can can significantly deplete sugar levels, especially if the yeast level in the poolish is high, as it is in this case. To address that problem, you would have to consider adding diastatic malt to the dough formulation as part of the final mix. However, I suspect that one would also have to re-design the entire dough formulation and particularly the poolish part to really solve the sugar depletion problem. The diastatic malt alone may be inadequate.

As for the dullness of the finished crust, it would help if you could post photos to get a better idea as to what you mean. However, I will say that it is common for crusts that are based on using preferments to have a certain dullness to them, possibly because of low residual sugar (simple sugars) to be available for caramelization purposes and as part of the Maillard reaction during the baking process (for a discussion of the Maillard reaction, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction). You might consider brushing the unbaked rim with some olive oil to get increased crust coloration, and maybe a bit more sheen, because of the good heat transfer characteristics of the olive oil. You might also try using a water/sugar solution.

Peter

[LisaMT]

Thank you Peter for taking the time to analyze my pizza problems. I was thinking more about what I could have done wrong and your explanation confirms my suspicion. I did the 15 hour prefermentation followed by two rises; however, after the second rise I did not touch the dough for a good 3.5 hours (in total) which according to your explanation I may have depleted the sugar entirely.  I will try the recipe again next weekend and post pictures.

Thank you,
Lisa

[WestCountry]

Hi,

I used the recipe in the first post of this thread and it worked GREAT, dough handled really well!

Here are some details:
-I did not use honey or sugar (because I cooked at high heat in a 2Stone Inferno oven).
-I only used .5 tsp sea salt because I made a mistake on that measurement.
-I used KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour)
-Instead of one 16-inch pie, I made this into two 11-inch pies (263 grams each) with the same dough formulation. (Don’t ask me why my total was so far from Peter’s 565.75 grams, I have not figured that out yet…)

….The first pizza (pepperoni and fresh cilantro) was cooked when stone hit around 620 degrees.
 
….The second pie (pepperoni, red bell pepper, fresh garlic) was cooked when stone hit around 725 degrees.

Both were really good, but the second one was definitely better with the high temperature (cooked quicker, had more char on top and bottom and more crispy).

I also tried this recipe using the honey last week, and cooked it at the high heat (700-750 degrees), but it burned too much (I think because of the honey).

I highly recommend this recipe for a one-day dough, and I have had good success with it in the kitchen oven at 550 degrees and now at higher temperatures of 700-750 degrees.

Hope you enjoy the photos!

A big thanks to you all for support here in this forum, and especially Peter, Sourdough Girl and of course JerryMac.

Chris

[sourdough girl]

Chris,
Those pizzas look absolutely perfect!  Job well done!  Don't you just love the 2stone?

(You're making me HUNGRY!) 

Thanks for the thanks, it's appreciated... I defer to Peter and JerryMac who have done the real work on this recipe, IMHO.

~sd

[WestCountry]

SD Girl-
Thanks for the nice feedback. Yes - the 2Stone is a lot of fun, and now I have great success with this recipe at both higher heat and medium heat ranges!

All,
Just thinking out loud here, since I like to experiment, I am thinking of trying this recipe with a 50%/50%  flour combination (e.g. KABF/Caputo 00, or maybe KABF/KASL), just to see the difference. If I do it, I will for sure post on how it turns out. Or if anyone has tried this, please let me know.

Thanks,
Chris