Author Topic: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem  (Read 3221 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Avumede

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 19
  • I Love Pizza!
The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« on: April 13, 2008, 08:19:51 PM »
I am trying to perfect my stuffed Chicago style pizza.  A professional Chicago style pizza has a thin raised lip on it, with the sauce a flat layer an inch or so below.  When I cook my pizza, the lip I have given my pizza in forming it expands as dough tends to do when cooking, turning my thin fat lip into a fat bulbous thing that doesn't look very good.  Tastes fine, of course, but looks are important too.  Another problem it that my top layer forms bubbles.  I've poked it with a fork before deploying it, but that didn't help.  I have to pop them with my knife while in the oven, but even then I think the bubbles cause my top layer to be excessively bumpy.

A few speculations:  perhaps I not making my dough firm enough?  I'm using the Papa Del's recipe on this site, but the amount of flour it demands seems a bit excessive to me, and I never seem to be able to add all of it.  Or perhaps there is too much gluten in my dough? 

Any thoughts?

« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 10:39:24 PM by Avumede »


Offline Mazz

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Iowa
  • 186 miles SSW from Ginos East, Downtown Chicago
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 09:48:11 PM »
Avumede - I've made stuffed pizza in the past, but never had the fat lip, as you call it.  What type of flour are you using?  I like King Arthur's All Purpose, but don't know if that would be the answer for you or not.  Perhaps cutting back on the yeast and extended the proof time of the dough would help.  I'm not familiar with the dough recipe you used.  But that's wherein the problem lies.  Of course, I'm no expert, and there are others here who are, so best to wait til they chime in with some other suggestions. - Mazz

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 06:52:39 AM »
I wanted to post on this but don't have much time so if it's not spot on I'm sure someone can set it straight. 

Mazz brings up a couple good points for starters.  In addition, when trying to figure out the Home Run Inn clone, Peter shared some research he did in regards to oil in dough and how it would hinder oven spring.  I made what I thought should be good and it just wasn't because there wasn't enough oil in the dough and ultimately we needed to get to 24-25% oil in our baker's formula for that crust.  Looking at the Papa Del's recipe here on the site, the only fat is a rather scant tablespoon of butter and whatever fat comes out of the milk (used in place of water) in the recipe.  Having never made this but knowing a litte about the ingredients it looks like it would produce a breadier foccacia style crust, and one that would spring considerably in the oven.  You could try to just thin out dough, as it looks pretty thick, and really pat it out along the sides.  I show how thin I press it against the pan walls here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.msg34824.html#msg34824

Loo

Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 07:09:21 AM »
OK, I should've looked at the Papa Del's recipe a little better before that last post but that's way too much dough for a 10" pie.  Four cups of flour is about a pound and that's a pretty good amount for a 14" deep dish pizza.  Now, I've never had Papa Del's and if that recipe comes out right for someone who does like to eat there...man, that's a lot of crust.  Just eyeballing that recipe, I'd reduce it by at least 1/3 (and probably closer to 40%) for a 10" pie.  Good luck.

Loo
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline Avumede

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 19
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 08:35:53 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  I make the papa del's recipe, but I make stuffed pizza, so I usually use about 1/4 of the dough for the top layer, and I use a 12" cast iron pan.  It comes out about right.

I'll try adding more flour and more oil, as well as making the lip thinner to begin with, and hopefully that will do the trick.  I make this every week currently, so I should have results by Sunday!

Offline loowaters

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 610
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Somewhere...in Iowa.
  • Where's my knife and fork?
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2008, 07:01:10 AM »
I don't know that I'd add more flour, it still seems to be a little too much dough for your purposes even if you're going 12" and creating a top layer.  I don't know what sort of flavor you're shooting for but I think with this much dough that to triple the butter to 3 T and reduce the milk by the same amount would be OK and not seem to over do the butter.  You can always add an oil, say a couple tablespoons of veggie, canola, or corn oil, even regular olive oil, instead of more butter and still reduce the milk by the same amount.  Just a few thoughts.

Loo
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22009
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2008, 12:05:49 PM »
Avumede,

You might want to take a more structured approach to convert the Papa Delís dough recipe to a deep-dish stuffed format.

I will preface my comments by saying that I have never had a Papa Delís pizza, and I have not attempted the Papa Delís clone recipe. However, I understand that the Papa Delís pizza is a very thick-crusted pizza and does not have a top layer.

To get a better grasp of the Papa Delís clone recipe, I made an effort to convert it to bakerís percent format. In doing this, I assumed that the flour used is an all-purpose flour such as a General Mills all-purpose flour (the recipe itself is silent as to the type or brand of flour). I also assumed that the flour is measured out textbook style using the ďstir-lift-levelĒ method (stir the flour in the container, lift it into the measuring cup, and level off the top). Based on the above assumptions, I came up with the following formulation:

100%, Flour, 17.86 oz. (4 c.)
47.4117%, Milk, 8.47 oz. (1 c.)
2.80274%, Butter, 0.50 oz. (1 T.)
2.36273%, Sugar, 0.42 oz. (1 T.)
1.1026%, Salt, 0.20 oz. (1 t.)
1.40013%, IDY, 0.25 oz. (1 packet)
Total weight = 27.70 oz.

As noted in the above table, the total dough batch weight is 27.70 ounces. The Papa Delís clone recipe says that that amount of dough is to be used with a 10Ē pan. The recipe does not specify the depth of the pan, so I will assume that it is 2Ē deep and that the pan is straight-sided and, as the recipe instructs, the dough is pushed up to the top of the pan. Using the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html, and treating the milk as being equivalent to water for hydration purposes, I estimate that the thickness factor is 0.2074, as noted in the following formulation:

Flour (100%):
Milk (47.4117%):
IDY (1.40013%):
Salt (1.1026%):
Butter (2.80274%):
Sugar (2.36273%):
Total (155.0799%):
506.23 g  |  17.86 oz | 1.12 lbs
240.01 g  |  8.47 oz | 0.53 lbs
7.09 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.19 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
785.06 g | 27.69 oz | 1.73 lbs | TF = 0.2074

By any definition, a thickness value of 0.2074 reflects a very thick dough. However, you indicated that you are using a 12Ē cast-iron pan and that you are using about one-quarter of the dough for the top skin. If your 12Ē cast-iron pan is anything like my 12Ē cast-iron skillet, the top diameter is 12Ē, the bottom diameter is 10Ē, and the sides are 2Ē (measured on the slope). On this basis, and assuming again that the dough is pushed up to the top of the pan and that 25% of the dough is devoted to the top skin, I get the following from the deep-dish dough calculating tool:

Flour (100%):
Milk (47.4117%):
IDY (1.40013%):
Salt (1.1026%):
Butter (2.80274%):
Sugar (2.36273%):
Total (155.0799%):
Single Inner Ball:
Single Outer Ball:
506.45 g  |  17.86 oz | 1.12 lbs
240.12 g  |  8.47 oz | 0.53 lbs
7.09 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.19 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
11.97 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
785.41 g | 27.7 oz | 1.73 lbs | TF = 0.15943
628.33 g | 22.16 oz | 1.39 lbs
157.08 g | 5.54 oz | 0.35 lbs
 
As noted above, the thickness factor for the last scenario I described drops to 0.15943. That number still reflects a very thick crust. Also, as Loo mentioned, because of the nature of the ingredients used in the Papa Delís clone recipe, it is likely that the crust will be bread-like as well as thick, which may make it difficult to avoid getting a fat lip. One way to deal with that problem may be to use an even lower thickness factor or, alternatively, leave the thickness factor at 0.15943 but use a smaller percent of the total dough batch for the top skin and hope that that results in a thinner lip when you join the top skin with the rest of the dough. Which option to choose may turn on whether you want a really thick crust or a thinner one. You may also decide that you donít want to push the dough all the way up the sides of your cast-iron pan. I have given you all of the bakerís percents, so you should be able to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool to enter whatever set of values you would like to cover your particular situation and desires. You might also decide to use a different flour, although doing so will change all of the numbers. It will also be possible once you settle on a particular set of values to convert the weights of the flour and milk back to volumes, using forum member November's mass-volume conversion tool at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. If you need any assistance, let me know.

As far as the problem with the bubbling of the top crust is concerned, you might consider pre-baking the top crust before putting the sauce and any other ingredients on top of the top crust. Given the bread-like character of the Papa Delís clone dough, I donít know how that will work out. But it is a method that is sometimes used.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 10:01:17 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Avumede

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 19
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2008, 10:03:17 PM »
Pete-zza, thanks for the detailed reply.  This will come in useful as I try and perfect the dough.   I will definitely try the more-oil approach.

Offline Avumede

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 19
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: The fat-lipped stuffed pizza problem
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2008, 10:18:48 AM »
I have made the next version, which basically increased the amount of butter to 4 tablespoons.  I kneaded much less (just a minute).  I paid special attention to the thickness of the dough at the lip.  At any rate, things turned out better, but still the lip was a bit fat.  Next time I may switch to olive oil and add a higher proportion of oil.