Author Topic: My Pizza Experiment  (Read 10785 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2008, 06:09:30 PM »
Peter,

I think that may be a bit excessive on describing the final step as the final step.  All I wanted to be sure of was that you knew "shaking" for example, was not a method for leveling the flour.  Here are two example definitions:

"Shake" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the container into a measuring cup and shaking the cup until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Tamp" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the container into a measuring cup and tamping the cup of flour until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2008, 06:27:08 PM »
November,

"Textbook" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Shake" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the flour container into a measuring cup and shaking the cup until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Tamp" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the flour container into a measuring cup and tamping the cup of flour until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip + Shake" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, shaking the cup, and levelling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip + Tamp" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, tamping the cup of flour until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2008, 06:52:01 PM »
Peter, close enough.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2008, 08:04:09 PM »
Based on the information given, I calculate the total hydration of the dough to about 63.0617%.  That's based on all the flours (measured with dip and tamp), water and egg moisture.

November,

Can you tell me how you calculated the percent hydration? When I did my calculation, I used the "Dip + Tamp" for the flour, the Bob's Red Mill data for the semolina and vital wheat gluten, and 87.575% water content for the egg white (large egg). I also used 10 ounces for the water, not the more precise value used in your tool. I came close to your number but not exact.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2008, 08:13:31 PM »
Can you tell me how you calculated the percent hydration? When I did my calculation, I used the "Dip + Tamp" for the flour, the Bob's Red Mill data for the semolina and vital wheat gluten, and 87.575% water content for the egg white (large egg). I also used 10 ounces for the water, not the more precise value used in your tool. I came close to your number but not exact.

Peter,

I used your numbers along with the 428.7379 value I gave previously for the flour.

428.7379 + 24.9 + 41.75 = 495.3879 g flour
283.5 + 28.9 = 312.4 g water
312.4 / 495.3879 = 0.630617

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2008, 08:34:13 PM »
November,

Thank you. When I entered 2 3/4 cups of flour (KABF) into the tool, I got a Dip + Tamp value of 427.8822 g.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2008, 08:39:37 PM »
When I entered 2 3/4 cups of flour (KABF) into the tool, I got a Dip + Tamp value of 427.8822 g.

Are you sure you are using the default depth of 5.69722?  428.7379 is all I have ever gotten since adding the feature.

EDIT: Image attachment.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 08:42:53 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2008, 10:38:52 PM »
November,

I made a couple of errors. I entered "2.75" in the "cup" field, which I thought would produce the same results as using "2" and "1" in separate fields (as in your image), and I clicked on Dip + Shake by mistake.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2008, 01:00:27 AM »
Peter,

That was not a combination of errors I tested for when trying to determine what you might have done.  I actually typed in 2.75 in the cup field thinking you might have done that, but as you can verify for yourself, that number is too high if using Dip + Tamp, so I discounted it as a possible error.  It's nice you were able to retrace your steps.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2008, 08:49:05 AM »
For those who are interested, the updated dough formulation for Steve’s 11-ingredients recipe is as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (66.1243%):
IDY (0.87821%):
Salt (1.30182%):
Olive Oil (3.14877%):
Sugar (1.85974%):
Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten (5.80774%):
Carnation Dry Non-Fat Milk (3.01757%):
Lard (6.0643%):
Egg Whites (7.69701%):
Bob's Red Mill Semolina (9.73788%):
Total (205.63734%):
428.74 g  |  15.12 oz | 0.95 lbs
283.5 g  |  10 oz | 0.62 lbs
3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
24.9 g | 0.88 oz | 0.05 lbs | 9 tsp | 3 tbsp
12.94 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 9 tsp | 3 tbsp
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
33 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
41.75 g | 1.47 oz | 0.09 lbs | 12 tsp | 4 tbsp
881.65 g | 31.1 oz | 1.94 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The thickness factor = 0.1010102; the effective hydration is 63.0617%

The revised formulation for a 16” pizza is as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.1243%):
IDY (0.87821%):
Salt (1.30182%):
Olive Oil (3.14877%):
Sugar (1.85974%):
Vital Wheat Gluten (5.80774%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (3.01757%):
Lard (6.0643%):
Egg Whites (7.69701%):
Semolina (9.73788%):
Total (205.63734%):
280 g  |  9.88 oz | 0.62 lbs
185.15 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
3.65 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
8.82 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
16.26 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.88 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
8.45 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 5.88 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
16.98 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.92 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
21.55 g | 0.76 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.26 tsp | 1.42 tbsp
27.27 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
575.78 g | 20.31 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.101012

The revised calculated protein content of the combined flours (KA bread flour, semolina and VWG) is approximately 15.8%. The revised thickness factor noted above is typical of that used for a NY “street” style pizza. That may well be the only similarity.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 09:05:47 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2008, 03:59:29 PM »
Since I had all of the ingredients for Steve’s dough recipe on hand, I decided to give his recipe a try. I have never used 11 ingredients in a pizza dough before, so I was naturally curious to see what the results would be. I decided to make a 16” version, using the dough formulation I posted in my last reply. In my case, I substituted the Hodgston Mills brand of vital wheat gluten and adjusted the amount to use, which was slightly different from the dough formulation quantity for the Bob’s Red Mill brand. I also added a 0.5% bowl residue compensation but it turned out to be unnecessary. I used my Zojirushi bread maker and it apparently does not result in dough losses of any significance during the mixing and kneading processes.

I let my bread maker go through the full cycle for dough, which included a mix/knead period of about 20 minutes and a rise period of about 1 hour. The dough as it came out of the machine was at a temperature of 78 degrees F. I lightly oiled the dough ball, put it into a sealable Pyrex glass container, and put the container in the refrigerator for a bit over 24 hours. At every stage of the dough, from the time it came out of the bread maker to the point where the dressed pizza went into the oven, there was a lot of bubbling activity in the dough. In fact, the first photo below shows some of the initial bubbling activity in the dough as I shaped it into a round ball when it came out of the bread maker.

To bake the pizza, I used a combination of a 16” pizza screen and a pizza stone, which I had placed on the lowermost oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. I used the combination of screen and stone only because my stone cannot itself handle a pizza larger than 14”.  The dough itself at the time of shaping and stretching, which took place after about 1 ˝ hours of rest at room temperature, was both extensible and elastic. It was soft and supple yet would spring back a bit as it was stretched out and released. I simply let the dough rest a bit and finished the stretching quite easily. The pizza was dressed with 6-in-1 tomato puree, straight out of the can; shredded low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese (a combination of Precious and Best Choice brands); sausage (two links’ worth of Johnsonville hot, slightly precooked); sliced pepperoni (Margarita brand); and thin slices of onion and red and green bell peppers. The pizza was baked at the second-from-the-top oven rack position until the rim of the dough started to rise and to turn light brown, about 4 minutes, and then for an additional 2 minutes on the stone to get increased bottom crust browning. When I saw that the bottom crust was browning too quickly, I moved the pizza back to the upper position for about another minute to finish browning the top of the crust.

The remaining photos show the finished pizza. The pizza, while tasty, was unlike any I have ever made before. There was very good oven spring with a lot of bubbles and there was very good color but the combination of textures was unlike anything I can recall. I fully expected that the crumb would be very soft and tender, because of all of the lard, the oil, the sugar and the dry milk powder, and indeed it was. I also expected to see more of a bread-like crumb. However, it did not have the open structure of voids that are found in a high-hydration dough. Rather, the crumb was fairly tight and, as noted above, very soft and tender. I also expected the bottom crust and the rim to be crispy. In this regard, I was especially interested in seeing what effect the egg whites would have, since egg whites are sometimes used to achieve increased crispiness in the crust. The usual recommended amount is around 2% of the weight of flour, which is considerably less than the 6.6% that I calculated for the combination of King Arthur bread flour, semolina and vital wheat gluten. So, I thought that the crust might be super crispy. Instead, I found the rim to have a thin crispy and crackly veneer, but the bottom crust was more of a tender cracker texture, with little resistance to the tooth. I also thought that using the vital wheat gluten and semolina would provide increased chewiness in the crust, which is why they are often used. However, I did not detect that quality to any significant degree. Rather, the softness and tenderness of the crumb seemed to predominate. I would say that this style of pizza, at least the way it was baked in my oven, will appeal most to those who prefer a very soft and tender crumb and a crispy rim.

I learned a lot from making the above pizza, and thank Steve for posting his recipe and giving me an opportunity to try it. It was easy to make, despite all of the ingredients, although I was sure to line them all up in the correct sequence specified by Steve before putting them into my bread pan.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2008, 05:05:40 PM »
Peter,

I wondered if curiosity was going to get the better of you.

It was soft and supple yet would spring back a bit as it was stretched out and released.

If I were to change something in the recipe, it would be the omission of egg yolk and inclusion of lard.  While a single yolk would not provide 26 g of fat, it would provide some fat, extra protein, and lecithin to help with the extensibility.  Of course adding any egg at all still causes me to think of this more as pastry roll dough.  Perhaps this formula should be taken on a test-spin as a dessert pizza dough.  I nominate Peter.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2008, 07:46:14 PM »
November,

As you can see, I didn't waste much time making the pizza. But, you are right. My curiosity did get the better of me. Making the dough was the only way for me to answer my own questions.

I agree with you that eliminating the lard from Steve's recipe would go a long way toward producing a less tender and soft crumb and crust, if that is desired. Doing that might also emphasize other characteristics of the crust, such as chewiness. As for the whole eggs you mentioned, they are rarely used in pizza doughs by professionals, but Donatos, a regional pizza chain in the Midwest, does use whole eggs in some form. That was one of the ingredients that was included in the Donatos dough clone recipe that I developed with member Wazatron at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5977.msg51213.html#msg51213. That recipe includes nine different ingredients, many of which are the same ingredients as used by Steve in his recipe. As it turns out, Donatos uses the same pizza base to make dessert pizzas. But whether the base is used to make a regular pizza or a dessert pizza, the character of the crust will be different from the usual pizza crust because it is based on a medium hydration dough (after accounting for the water in the eggs) and is prepared and baked differently, with a different appearance, as noted at http://www.donatos.com/menus_features/our_menu/pizzas.asp and http://www.donatos.com/menus_features/our_menu/desserts.asp.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2008, 08:25:06 PM »
Peter,

I was just suggesting the egg yolk addition to simplify the process, keep the yolk from going to waste, and for its emulsifying properties because of the stretching issue.  Further suggestions I would have would probably alter the formula beyond any shared identity with the original.

- red.november

Offline Traver

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2008, 08:47:46 AM »
Hi,

Glad you had some fun with my experiment.

Pete. From your description, it sounds like you duplicated my pizza pretty well.

I have tried playing with the mix some. Leaving out the egg white and/or some of the wheat gluten makes a harder crust with less rise and bubbles. I don't like it as much. Less lard has a similar effect for me. Adding the egg yoke doesn't change it much. I often buy "just whites" which are egg whites that come in a small milk carten.

Obviously it isn't a classic pizza dough and it can be used in other ways. It makes good grilled flat bread or you can put it in a bread pan and bake it like a loaf of bread.

One thing I like about it is that it doesn't take a lot of interactive time. Just put all the stuff in the machine, put the dough in the fridge and use it later.

-Steve

Offline eric22

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 98
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2008, 10:22:15 PM »
Traver.

Return your camera and get a better one.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21722
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2008, 08:16:21 AM »
Traver.

Return your camera and get a better one.

eric22,

I think you will find that most of our members are only casual or occasional pizza makers and, as such, are unlikely to buy or replace their cameras simply to post a few photos of their pizzas on this forum. Only those chronically addicted to pizza are likely to do that--usually after they have already spent a lot of money just to get all of the gear needed to make quality pizzas to begin with. I am happy to see any posts from members, with or without photos, that contribute to our knowledge about pizza.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 08:25:29 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline 2stone

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 520
    • 2stone blog
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2008, 10:02:28 AM »
Peter, that is funny

I guess you may be right..............quite a diagnosis!!
Only those chronically addicted to pizza are likely to do that.
Wow...........never thought of it in those terms.
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline eric22

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 98
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2008, 04:12:06 AM »
eric22,

I think you will find that most of our members are only casual or occasional pizza makers and, as such, are unlikely to buy or replace their cameras simply to post a few photos of their pizzas on this forum. Only those chronically addicted to pizza are likely to do that--usually after they have already spent a lot of money just to get all of the gear needed to make quality pizzas to begin with. I am happy to see any posts from members, with or without photos, that contribute to our knowledge about pizza.

Peter

I like big photos and  those cut crusts showing the bubbles. 

Offline thomasz

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
Re: My Pizza Experiment
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2008, 09:48:00 PM »
 Thank for your experiences, I hope I will learn something.


 

pizzapan