Author Topic: Big Dave's Old Faithful  (Read 24579 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2006, 07:36:05 PM »
Dave,

Which one of the Old Faithful formulations did you use--the formulation for the 14" in Reply 25 of this thread?

Interestingly, I have found that kids seem to like the Old Faithful pizzas better than the thinner styles, like the NY. I wondered whether they were like one of the chains' pizzas with a fairly thick crust. In my experience, once kids get hooked on chain pizzas, it's hard to wean them off of them.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to try the New Faithful version. The last one I made was the 16" with a thickness factor of 0.11, which is slightly thicker than a typical NY style, for which I use a thickness factor of 0.10-0.105. If you would like the numbers for a 14" New Faithful, let me know. I can also use whatever thickness factor you would like, even below 0.10 if you'd like.

Peter


Offline PizzaEater

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2006, 08:35:55 PM »
Pete

Here's the one:

High-gluten flour (100%, 12-13% protein), 46 lbs. (736 oz.)
Water (51.6%), 23.7 lbs. (390 oz.)
Salt (1.0%), 7 oz.
Sugar (1.2%), 9 oz.
IDY Yeast (0.2%), 1.0 oz.
Veg. oil (2.2%), 16 oz.


Mixed everything in a Bosch for 5 min.

1. Added Water 80 deg., yeast & sugar, mixed 30 sec., let sit for 5 min.
2. Added flour & salt on top of water.
3. Turned on mixer, just as flour began coming together added oil with mixer running.
4. Kneaded for 5 min.
5. Let rise in frig. for 24 hours.

Used thickness factor of .115 for a 14" pie. I was a little concerned that due to low hydration that dough would be hard to work, but it was really not bad at all.  I'm sure I could have worked it a lot thinner.  Baked the first at 550 deg. for 4 min., that while not being burned on bottom was too close.    Bake second at 500 deg. for 4 1/2 min., it was perfect. 

Because of flavor plan to try same recipe but use a thickness factor of .105 or even .1, will post results.

Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2008, 09:19:57 AM »
Today I saw the following Big Dave Ostrander "Old Faithful" dough formulation at the Pizza Today bulletin board:

Here is my formula. You'll see that I have it speced out for a 25 as well as 46 pound batch. I intentionally decided to not use a whole 50# bag for two reasons. 1; 50# bags rarely have 50# in them. They are quite often slightly over and under weight. That is why I actually force the weighed 46# for the batch. If I used a whole bag of flour the first 3-4 revolutions of the hook would spill some flour on the floor.

Big Dave’s ‘Old Faithful’ Dough Formula

% AMT
High Gluten Flour 100.0 46 lb. 25 lb.
(12% - 13% Protein)
Salt 1.50 11 oz. 6.0oz.
Sugar 1.13 9 oz. 5.0oz.
Yeast (IDY)instant dry yeast 0.16 1.0 oz. 3/4.0oz
Vegetable Oil 2.20 16 oz. 9.0 oz
Water 75 degree 51.60 25.3 lb. 13.0lb
Next day dough 13# water @ 90 degrees. Double the yeast to 1.5 oz.
This Dough should be ready to use in 12-14 hours. Downside, will blow in 24-30 hours.
1. Accurately weigh out all ingredients.
2. Pour water & sugar, salt in 60 qt. mixing bowl. Stir with wire whip. Let rest to dissolve and stir again.
3. Pour in veg. oil and stir again.
4. Pour in flour.
5. Sprinkle Instant yeast on top of flour.
6. Start mixer on low speed and mix for 9 minutes.

When dough has finished mixing place on worktable. Core temperature of dough should be close to 80 degrees. 90-95 hot batch.
Cut dough balls to desired weights. Suggested weights:
10”=10oz. 12”=14oz. 14”=19oz. 16”=24oz.
Roll dough pieces into seamless round ball shapes.
Place the dough balls on an oiled aluminum sheet pan.
Cover with a plastic bag or film wrap, airtight, and date with a magic marker.
Place dough under refrigeration. 35-38 degrees is ideal.

This formula is a low yeast, next day retarded formula. The dough needs to rest in the refrigerator for at least 24 – 48 hours before using. Two day proofing is better. Then the dough will have great flavor. The useful shelf life of the dough before it over raises and starts to ‘blow’, is 3 days, not counting day one.

To soften the dough and reduce elasticity one may add 8 ozs. of PZ-44 dough conditioner to the batch when you add the yeast. This natural reducer eliminates the snap back tendencies of dough made from Hi-Gluten flour and makes the dough more user friendly for operations that don’t have experience in hand tossing and spinning.

--------------------

Big Dave Ostrander / The Pizza Doctor
http://www.pizzatoday.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001274

« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 09:22:24 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2008, 10:47:44 AM »
Water 75 degree 51.60 25.3 lb. 13.0lb
Next day dough 13# water @ 90 degrees. Double the yeast to 1.5 oz.
This Dough should be ready to use in 12-14 hours. Downside, will blow in 24-30 hours.

I'm guessing he meant to say: "Same day dough [...]"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2008, 12:12:12 PM »
November,

Big Dave isn't always the clearest writer and his recipes are sometimes garbled, but I believe he means "next day" (between 12-14 hours and 24 hours?). I say this because the amount of IDY yeast used is only 0.375%, as noted in this recast baker's percent formulation for the "next day" dough batch using 25 lb. of flour, 1.5 oz. of IDY (double the usual amount), and water at 95 degrees F:

Flour (100%):
Water (95 degrees F) (52%):
IDY (0.375%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.25%):
Sugar (1.25%):
Total (157.375%):
11340 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
5896.8 g  |  208 oz | 13 lbs
42.53 g | 1.5 oz | 0.09 lbs | 4.71 tbsp | 0.29 cups
170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs | 10.16 tbsp | 0.63 cups
255.15 g | 9 oz | 0.56 lbs | 18.73 tbsp | 1.17 cups
141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | 11.85 tbsp | 0.74 cups
17846.33 g | 629.5 oz | 39.34 lbs | TF = N/A

Peter




Offline November

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2008, 12:32:51 PM »
Peter,

He mentioned the so called "next day" (90°F water & double yeast) dough should be ready to use in 12-14 hours.  He referred to the main formula as:

Quote
This formula is a low yeast, next day retarded formula. The dough needs to rest in the refrigerator for at least 24 – 48 hours before using.

To me, a dough blown in 24 hours is not a next day dough.  A dough that is ready to use in 24 hours is.  If he's calling a dough that's ready in 12 hours and turns south within 24 hours a next day dough, that's a very unusual timeframe.  In a professional setting, if you make dough in the morning, how are you going to use the dough throughout the next day if it blows by the next morning?

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2008, 01:08:30 PM »
In a professional setting, if you make dough in the morning, how are you going to use the dough throughout the next day if it blows by the next morning?

November,

Maybe I can send Big Dave an email and get clarification. I don't recall offhand whether Big Dave made his dough in the evening, which is quite common and preferred by some because workers aren't going in and out of the coolers at night.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2008, 01:19:45 PM »
I don't recall offhand whether Big Dave made his dough in the evening, which is quite common and preferred by some because workers aren't going in and out of the coolers at night.

How late in the evening are we talking?  It would have to be after dinner for certain, because a dough made at 4 PM (before the dinner rush) would be ready to use at 4 AM (a useless time to have dough ready), and still might not be usable for dinner the next day.  Both pizza restaurants I've worked at made dough in the morning because it's logistically more efficient without customers to attend to.

EDIT: Clarification would be optional.  If he says the dough should be ready in 12 hours, plan accordingly.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 01:23:40 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2008, 01:53:04 PM »
November,

I sent Big Dave an email asking for clarification. I had an email exchange with him once before when I was puzzled by something he wrote--on the "Old Faithful" dough formulation as a matter of fact.

I don't recall when Big Dave used to make his dough when he was in the business (as an independent) but Tom Lehmann often recommends that the dough be made at night--mainly because the dough balls cool down faster with little traffic into the coolers. His counsel (on the PMQ Think Tank) is mostly to independents.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 01:58:19 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Keith_Doughboy

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2009, 07:39:17 PM »
Hi, first post, great forum here... I've learned a lot just lurking : )

Decided to go for it and build a 'New Faithful' batch of dough, but without High Gluten flour or Vital Wheat Gluten, ADY instead of IDY and ready to use in 2 hours or less. Flour used was King Arthur's Bread Flour, no other bells or whistles. No mixer.

Wonderful! Perfect! Exceeded all expectations! I've had much much worse from a parlor, and paid full click for it!

I stuck to the formula, and increased the amount of ADY by just a scant.. maybe a gram (I weigh ingredients in grams).

Weighed out flour, set aside. Weighed out sugar, set aside. Weighed out water and micro'd to 110 deg F. Added a hefty pinch of the weighed out sugar to the water, and stirred it in with the yeast. Let it proof. Added salt and remaining sugar to flour, hand whisked together. Stirred olive oil into yeast solution, and added all the liquid to the flour. Combined with a wooden spoon until it became difficult. Dumped everything to pastry board, and started to knead in remaining flour from the bowl. What a pleasure to knead! Sticking was minimal, I used Wondra flour for the board and hands. I kneaded for around 10 mins or so, tried a windowpane test. Looked good, but I decided to push it more, so kneaded another 2 or 3 minutes. This stuff was starting to feel like silk! Funny how you just 'know' when a formula is perfectly balanced just by handling it!

Did another windowpane and this one was able to go very thin with no hesitation. Rounded dough, lightly oiled and put in cold oven with light on. 1.5 hrs later, easily doubled. Punched down and rolled back out to pastry board. Lightly kneaded out remaining air, about 7 or 8 kneads. Started with 900 grams of dough, split that in two, created 2 more nice tight skinned rounds, and set them to rise again. 30 mins later, rolled them out and shaped.

Shaping was kind of a struggle at first, but dough seemed to relax after about 3 mins. Made 2 absolutely beyond beautiful 14" pizzas. One was an herb chicken and mozzarella, the other a plain ol' pepperoni and italian sausage. For me, the test of a dough is whether or not anyone eats the crust at the end, and there wasn't a crumb left at the end of this session.

Moral of this story is, this recipe really doesn't require all this extra effort for high grade flour and refrigeration. It might help it, but it won't be anything close to a disaster without those 2 things. I love my pizza, but I guess I'm far from a fanatic... this crust was perfectly acceptable in under 2 hrs using common ingredients, and if anyone here at the house didn't actually watch me make it, they would have never believed it didn't come from a respectable parlor. It also reheated in the micro with no real loss of flavor or any sogginess. Again, I've had much worse that I paid good money for.

I'll try it again when I have the extra time to refrigerate it, and have the Vital Wheat Gluten. It will be interesting to compare how the dough is to work with, how it shapes, and how it tastes. It couldn't possibly end up looking any prettier out the oven, as this was an 11 out of 10 for looks as made here.

Thanks for all the inspiration and information on these forums! It's a lot to read through, but worth the effort. Quite a patient and classy crowd you have here, Pete!

- Keith

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2009, 08:41:40 PM »
Keith,

I'm glad to hear that things turned out so well for you. I would have loved to see some photos.

There is nothing wrong with using the King Arthur flour. That is the flour that I would use these days. I like using vital wheat gluten, for both technical and taste reasons, but it really isn't necessary. the KABF is a very good flour on its own.

I looked at the New Faithful recipes at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9749.html#msg9749 to see how you were able to make and use the dough so quickly. I am now certain that it was a combination of a lot of yeast (1% IDY) and your use of warm water. If you decide to make a cold fermented version of the recipe, I suggest that you use only a small amount of the formula water (about 4-5 times the weight of the yeast) to rehydrate the ADY (your substitute for the IDY) and leave the rest of the water on the cool or cold side. Otherwise, the dough will rise too fast and too much, even in the refrigerator, until the refrigerator cools the dough down enough to slow down the fermentation process.

For your additional information, when I make pizza dough following a dough formulation, I weigh only the flour and water. I use volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients. I also suggest that you not re-knead, re-shape or re-ball the dough after you have divided it into two pieces. That will only mess up the gluten structure and make the dough "bucky" (elastic) and hard to work with. I also suggest that you do the division of the dough just after it has been made and is ready to go into the refrigerator, not after. That will minimize the chances of overhandling the dough. When you decide to use the dough balls to make pizzas, upon removing the dough balls from the refrigerator, I would let the dough balls warm up at room temperature for about an hour and a half, and treat the dough gently as you shape the dough balls to make skins.

I ran the original New Faithful dough formulation through the enhanced dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. That tool did not exist when this thread started and for a good part of its existence. But the tool is a real time saver. While I was at it, I modified the dough formulation to use ADY instead of IDY. For two 14" pizzas, the dough formulation looks like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
ADY (1.33%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (3%):
Total (169.33%):
Single Ball:
581.18 g  |  20.5 oz | 1.28 lbs
348.71 g  |  12.3 oz | 0.77 lbs
7.73 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.04 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
11.62 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.08 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
17.44 g | 0.62 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.84 tsp | 1.28 tbsp
17.44 g | 0.62 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.37 tsp | 1.46 tbsp
984.11 g | 34.71 oz | 2.17 lbs | TF = 0.11275
492.06 g | 17.36 oz | 1.08 lbs
Note: For two 14" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.11; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

Since you will be making the dough by hand, I used a bowl residue compensation factor of 2.5% in the expanded dough calculating tool. The bowl residue compensation is to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That way, your final dough should have a weight quite close to that given in the above table. I usually use my digital scale to weigh the finished dough. If it is more than what the table shows, I just trim it back to the value given in the table. I indicated using vegetable oil in the dough, which is what most professional pizza operators use, but you can use olive oil or canola oil if you'd like.

Peter

Offline kstretch158

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2009, 11:17:40 PM »
Big Dave is very good at what he does and he knows the pizza business like nobodies business but, to say that you have to use a Hobart 60 qt. mixer is just wrong. I have a Thunderbird 60 qt. mixer that looks just like a Hobart and mixes just like a Hobart but does not have the price tag of a Hobart.
I have met Big Dave and have talked to him many times on the phone. You will see him promoting many products because he either has a good relationship with them or is being paid by them. I am not downing Big Dave at all I am just telling everyone how the real world works.

I have tried Big Daves recipe and it is good but, I have my own and I get great reviews on it.
Stromboli's Pizza

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Big Dave's Old Faithful
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2014, 01:11:39 PM »
I made what I think is Big Dave Ostrander's New Faithful 24 hour cold ferment dough today.  Recipe used (I lowered the IDY and don't think I should have, explanation below.)

268  g        100%  GM Full Strength Flour
161  g          60%  Chilled water from the fridge door
    9  g            3%  Olive Oil
    2  tsp         3%  Sugar
 1/2  tsp    0.65%  SAF IDY
1.12 tsp          2%  Salt

The dough was taken out of the fridge and allowed to warm for 1.5 hours.  It opened easily. 

To me the crust lacked flavor at 24 hours.  It was not developed, and I felt it under fermented.  It did not exhibit the strong "beer" aroma from the oven that I get with good, flavorful crusts.  I should not have reduced the IDY to 0.65% from the recipe's original 1%.  The cornice was not fully developed as shown in the pictures.  My peel semolina/AP flour mix really coated the bottom excessively.  I also used some leftover Red November #2 sauce because it was "handy."  It was way too powerful for this simple motz/pepperoni pie.  It overpowered and was not balanced.  Back to almost straight 7/11 on this style of pie.  The pie was baked at 515 deg F on a cordierite stone in about 8.5 minutes.  My implementation of this was, to me, a dud.